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Duke_of_Ray

Abortion and the death penalty

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I was wondering what you all thought about these two subjects. I am sure what I think will not suprise you all.

Abortion- How horrible it is. all abortion is is murder, and there is no oother way to look at it. If a woman does not want a kid then she can out it up for adoption, but killing it? That is something they would do in some 3rd world country, and here we are doing it in Amercia and other places around the world. How abortion is legal I do not know, but any doctor who kills a baby or woman who allows it to be killed is no better than a serial killer or any thing of the sorts.

Death Penalty- The death penalty should be used more than it is. If somebody kills another person on purpose, than they should pay with their life. They should be given two weeks to live,they should be given time to get their life right with God, and then at the end be put to death, not by leathal enjection, but a much quicker and cheaper way, like a firing squad. I do not care if they say that the person was menatlly incomptent and did not know what he was doing, thats the stupidest thing ever! If he could kill somebody then he/she can stand trial.

I get thsi odd vibe that this thread will be closed, I hope not but..... wink.gif

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Lol. What a surprise.

´

My views:

Abortion - a woman's right, a fetus is not a human being

Death penalty - illogical and you risk killing innocent persons.

... and those here who know me and are still surprised that those are my views should have their brians examined biggrin.gif

Duke: I'll give you this to think about: The bible says "Thou shalt not kill". It doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill unless the person is a criminal" but simply "Thou shalt not kill". I thought that the bible meant something for you?

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Abortion- I'm against it.

Death Penalty. It's fine the way it is. I don't believe in god or any of that so putting them to death isn't that bad. They should rot in Jail for a long time like how it is now.

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FLAME WAR!

j/k

nothing starts a good flame war like pro-choice/pro-life debate smile.gif

one thing I don't like about pro-life stance is that there are no social structure or organization to help those who follows their doctrine and gives birth. Catholics especially value family and ethics, but when someone breaks it, you are more likely to be hissed at and have your life ruined with bickerings. If a woman has a choice to prevent stigmatized for long time, then I'd not stop her.

If pro-life ppl want to stop 'murder' of infants, then they better find a way to help those ppl, not condemn them and enforce 'holier than thou' stance. some ppl get pregnanat cuz they are having freesex and etc., but victims of rape can't do much. but does Catholics help those rape victims? nope. they always say something like 'She was dressed such and such and that's why she deserves it' behind the victims back.

so intil those pro-life ppl can get their hypocracy out of their system, I don't support them.

Death penalty should be used. it never brings victims back to life, but it sure gets revenge done for victim's family, and deter crimes of big scope.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ July 25 2002,05:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but it sure gets revenge done for victim's family,<span id='postcolor'>

That is one of the main point against the death penalty. A civilized society doesn't deal in terms of revenge.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and deter crimes of big scope.<span id='postcolor'>

Um. No it doesn't. There is a shitload of research that has shown that it doesn't work as an deterrant. I could give you some references, but you can just as easily look it up on google yourself smile.gif

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Abortion,indeed a woman's right.

If you should get pregnant against your will i'd like to see you go through the discomfort and pain of being pregnant and giving birth to a child.

(let's take the rape scenario here as an example)

I say women should decide on this and we should butt out  smile.gif

Death penalty,it may be used,but should be highly,highly carefully used,and even better not.

Why?The fact that innocents can fall victim should be taken into account,it should only be used in cases where there's absolute certainty ('hey we found 40 bodies in your backyard killed with an axe that was still in your basement' )

Since well,absolute certainty is almost an impossibility in law,it be better not to use it.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 25 2002,05:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ July 25 2002,05:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but it sure gets revenge done for victim's family,<span id='postcolor'>

That is one of the main point against the death penalty. A civilized society doesn't deal in terms of revenge.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and deter crimes of big scope.<span id='postcolor'>

Um. No it doesn't. There is a shitload of research that has shown that it doesn't work as an deterrant. I could give you some references, but you can just as easily look it up on google yourself smile.gif<span id='postcolor'>

yeah yeah yeah you pinko-ass commie tounge.gif

we live in civilized society, but we are still ppl. it is natural for ppl to get back at those who mess our world upside down. and nothing sends more message like having the person who killed your related person to show that those who do better think twice since they will loose theirs too. in economic term, it would be increasing cost of crime over benefit of it, to prevent additional crimes.(of course draw back is that as cost gets lower, it goes back to where it started)

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Hey or go even one step better and enforce the death penalty like in suadi arabia,if u kill a person even if u accidently run them over in ur car and its thier fault the victims families can get u killedd if they choose confused.gif

Like whats said before it should be the womens choice but also if say for example its a one night stand and she gets pregnant they guy should get the right to whether he should be involved with the child and if not then theres no claim to get child support from him.

example scenarios

1. casual couple accidently gets pregnant,man doesnt wants kids but woman wants it = man gives up fatherhood rights,women cant claim any money off him.

2. couple decide to have kid,man jumps ship = seeing as theyd all ready decided and followed through with having kid then man must pay for child.

Theres 2 black and white example but should give u the concept.

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Abortions - For one, no man has the right to institutionalize his opinions on the subject. We (men) have no right to. As long as we will never know what its like to give birth, and to go through all the hardships that go with that, its not up to us at all. A woman's body is no ones buisness but her own.

Death penalty - I'm going with Denoir's opinion on this. The death penalty is final, whereas, putting someone in prison for life is still really bad, but theres still the chance that they could be proven innocent, in which case, they could go about their lives. If you kill them, and later find out they were innocent, the system would then have commited murder, not to mention blatent hypocrisy.

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Abortion - Im against it, but i feel that women should decide wheter they want it. Not the guys choice like aculaud said.

Death Penalty- Really I dont like people just being put in jail for life when it is possible that they could break out. Not that it would happend for sure im just saying that its possible. I would prefer people who murder other people get the death penalty, but I think thats exactly what the killer probably wants.

Id like to hear Avon's view on abortion since she is the only woman in this forum.

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"Abortions - For one, no man has the right to institutionalize his opinions on the subject. We (men) have no right to. As long as we will never know what its like to give birth, and to go through all the hardships that go with that, its not up to us at all. A woman's body is no ones buisness but her own."

I agree and I disagree. Even if its the womans body, it took two to make the child. The man should have some say in it. I know I wouldn't like it if I got a woman pregnant and SHE decided to do an abortion. Hey, it is my kid to. I should have some say in the matter. Or, the other way around. I want to do an abortion, she doesn't. That means she is forcing me into fatherhood.

It is a tricky subject because the woman should have the final say, no doubt about it. I just think the guy gets over run many times, like he never gets a choice.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jester983 @ July 24 2002,22:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Id like to hear Avon's view on abortion since she is the only woman in this forum.<span id='postcolor'>

Good call!

I also want to say, that i'm not entirely for abortions. I really consider myself to be indifferent on the subject.

One thing though, is that i think pro-lifers are making the wrong people into the bad guys here. All i see them doing is giving flak to women who get abortions. Whos more at fault - The woman that gets an abortion, or the guy that doesnt have the sense to wear a condom? Sex is ours to be enjoyed however we choose, but if you dont want abortions, then get to the root of the problem, and wear a condom!

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ July 24 2002,22:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I agree and I disagree. Even if its the womans body, it took two to make the child. The man should have some say in it. I know I wouldn't like it if I got a woman pregnant and SHE decided to do an abortion. Hey, it is my kid to. I should have some say in the matter. Or, the other way around. I want to do an abortion, she doesn't. That means she is forcing me into fatherhood.

It is a tricky subject because the woman should have the final say, no doubt about it. I just think the guy gets over run many times, like he never gets a choice.<span id='postcolor'>

You raise a good point, which i actually agree with on a few levels. When i said what i did, i was talking more about pro-lifers trying to make womens decissions for them, thats all. smile.gif

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"One thing though, is that i think pro-lifers are making the wrong people into the bad guys here. All i see them doing is giving flak to women who get abortions. Whos more at fault - The woman that gets an abortion, or the guy that doesnt have the sense to wear a condom? Sex is ours to be enjoyed however we choose, but if you dont want abortions, then get to the root of the problem, and wear a condom!"

Well, condoms are not 100% fail-safe. And sure, you can say that its the guys fault for not having the sense to wear a condom. But isnt it equally the womans fault for letting him do something without the condom? All she has to do is say "No". If he then does anything, its rape and a whole other story.

Condoms, pills and just about anything else can fail.

I just think it is to easy to get an abortion these days, atleast in Sweden. A woman should be able to do it, but maybe it shouldnt be that easy. To many, abortion is a kind of contraceptive (sp?). "Hey, I got pregnant...again. No worries, I will just take it out." That kind of reasoning is fucked up.

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my guess is that Avon will oppose abortion, choose death penalty.

anyone betting here?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ July 25 2002,08:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">anyone betting here?<span id='postcolor'>

No, but we can start a pool if youd like. tounge.gif

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Certain situations: pro abortion.

but: I'm anti loveless sex. to me its no small thing. if you're prepared to take the 'actions' wow.gif  be prepared to face the concequences.

Death Penalty: should be automatic for repeat/serial offenders. rape/pediaphile/murder~1stDeg, and optional for 'single' undoubtable or admitted 'such said' crimes.

but: it should only be evoked after a 5year period. so if guilty~ they can suffer. if innocent(should be rarer than Dodo shit)~ time for equitall.

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Abortion: I'm still undecided. A woman's body is her's to do with as she pleases, but depending on your theological viewpoint it may or may not be murder.

Death Penalty: For it, in certain cases (cold-blooded murder, pre-meditated rape, child molestation). You will never convince me (despite the research) that it isn't a deterrent, at least in some cases. And it does reduce the crime rate, at the very least by 1. It also prevents some bleeding heart appeals tribunal from releasing these pricks early. I don't know about USA/Europe, but the court system here in Australia is a joke. Judges give away pathetically light sentences for murder and rape, yet throw the proverbial book at embezzlers and tax dodgers. It's a pet hate of mine, how judges go on record as saying "most heinous crime of this sort I have ever seen blah blah blah" and then giving some pathetically light sentence out.

One example, a convicted child molester who raped a small boy in a public toilet (no doubt in the court's mind that he did do it) got a reduced sentence because, and I quote the judge, "a lengthy jail term could seriously harm his career as a real estate agent". No shit.

My opinion simplified: muderers and rapists deserve death.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> muderers and rapists deserve death.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree with that, but I also think that no man has a right to

kill other man, so I'm against death penalty.

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The pro-lifers (even the name of the movement is so cheesy) always talk about murdering babies. But they are not babies that get aborted, they're mere undeveloped fetuses (remember there is a limit to how old fetuses can get aborted). These are just sacks of cells without a complex nervous system and after all, the complex nervous system is what makes you a human.

A good analogy to think about is that even insects have more developed nervous systems than an abortable fetus. Yet we squash flies without second thought.

Pro-lifers, get a life. tounge.gif

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But they are not babies that get aborted<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, that's all about where you draw a line.

Some people may think that wanking is murder..

On the other hand, some might (probably not, but anyway)

think that humans are just some carbon, water and stuff

bunched together, so it's not wrong to destroy such creations.

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"I don't know about USA/Europe, but the court system here in Australia is a joke. Judges give away pathetically light sentences for murder and rape, yet throw the proverbial book at embezzlers and tax dodgers. It's a pet hate of mine, how judges go on record as saying "most heinous crime of this sort I have ever seen blah blah blah" and then giving some pathetically light sentence out."

Yeah, its the same basically. You would get prison time for shooting a wolf here. Recently a drunk driver ran down and killed two 15 year old girls and got a couple of weeks community service (cant remember if it was two weeks or two months, still, a joke)

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">cant remember if it was two weeks or two months, still, a joke<span id='postcolor'>

In Finland, a little while ago, a man that had molested/abused several children, I don't know how bad but molested anyway, got couple of weeks of community service, too.

The other interesting case was when a man here was suspected of

being in the inner circle of a wide international child porn ring.

He had several giga's of crypted material on his computer,

but the police couldn't get the password, so he got nothing,

moved away from his hometown, to the neighbor of elementary school

and kindergarten.

Sometimes I wish we would have this Gestapo -style police, that

would beat the crap out of the guys if they don't confess!

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