9'th May - Day Of Victory!

[oxmox 73]

500 million tons eh? Gee whiz, they had some cool transportation and storage technology in those days didn't they!? Yeah Standard Oil did some crooked dealings before the USA entered the war in 1941, actual volumes may be slightly lower lol (remove the million).

As for the USA/Standard Oil supplying both Germany and Allies during WW1 - nonsense (prove it). The main reason for the USA entering WW1 was German U-boats sinking it's ships and tankers! No US ships passed the Allied Naval Blockade of German Ports. Germany got it's oil from Romania until they sided with the Allies and the oil refineries were destroyed by the UK.

Ups...yeah the term million was a mistake. I did not read or heard in documentaries about the overall amount of Tetraethyllead which got delivered.

The fact that Standard Oil was supplying axis and allies is actually well known in the economical history and Iam sure you will find more reputable sources, probably with the following infos even hints on wikipedia. The first time I heard about it was from a documentary called "La face cachée du pétrole" or the same documentary in german "Das Oelzeitalter", aired on ARTE TV (a french/german cooperation TV station). The film is quiete long (maybe 3 hours, 2 parts), a very interesting and important documentary about history with professors from different countries, famous politicians, people from secret services. They start in 1860 until modern days.

If you maybe speak another language instead of just english, here is the movie in french or german:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYS1YaIIfwM

Since you want sources, an example. Marc Spoerer, Professor for Economical History (University Stuttgart, Germany). He did add the following comment:

"The subcompany of Standard Oil, called DAPG* ( hint: today in germany the company is named ESSO Deutschland), aswell the subsidiary of the Netherland-British pondon (Royal Dutch Shell) with the name Rhenania (hint: nowadays its called SHELL Deutschland in germany), did work together with the german authorities over the whole period of world war 1. Until 1917 the cooperation was political unproblematic, because the Netherlands were neutral and initially the United States aswell. When the USA did enter the war, the DAPG was furthermore assumed as a national/patriotic company in the german empire and therefore the cooperation did continue until the end of world war 1."

I hope this will help...

* Deutsch-Amerikanische Petroleum-Gesellschaft (German-American Petrol-Company)

Edited May 14, 2013 by oxmox

[Tyrsero 10]

There would be always a better way to start this thread, maybe by not bringing tyranny into the topic, in other words, the Soviet Union.

The Victory Day in Europe is on 8th May, why did you choose the Soviet Victory Day instead of the European one if that's obvious it's going to bring some flame?

Why not just celebrate 8th of May with everyone instead of just trying to glorify Soviets that didn't do anything good at all after the end of WW2?

[NeuroFunker 11]

Fcourse, and tell that Soviet didn't capitulate Berlin in 1945. Russia did aLOT in WWII, i'm not a communist regime either, more like, my grandpa was shot by them, as so called "states enemy", but then our family becase a brief, he isn't... Well to late i guess?

I know, communism isn't much better then nazism/fascism, but i'm russian, and i'm proud, that my nation, were victorious after all that losses, where germans where about 20km from Moscow. I'm proud that our nation, was victorius over Napolion, then over theutonic order. All Russian enemies were tough, and sadly russian nation, did suffer a lot from thos wars.

We are the nation of victorious, and our enemies, always trying to put a dirt on us. Agressors my ass... We had no slavery, and didn't beslave poor africans, we had banya, to wash ourselves, where Europe was suffering from illnesses, because they were washing themselves 2 time in their lives. We did not slauther our so to say "indians", 100s of various etnic groups, living on russian theritory. I can go on, but i must stop.

Edited May 14, 2013 by NeuroFunker

[Tyrsero 10]

Fcourse, and tell that Soviet didn't capitulate Berlin in 1945. Russia did aLOT in WWII, i'm not a communist regime either, more like, my grandpa was shot by them, as so called "states enemy", but then our family becase a brief, he isn't... Well to late i guess?

I know, communism isn't much better then nazism/fascism, but i'm russian, and i'm proud, that my nation, were victorious after all that losses, where germans where about 20km from Moscow. I'm proud that our nation, was victorius over Napolion, then over theutonic order. All Russian enemies were tough, and sadly russian nation, did suffer a lot from thos wars.

Of course Russia did alot in WWII, for example they invaded Poland together with Nazis, supported them, and did things like Katyn Massacre. If not Nazis betraying Soviets it would keep happening. No idea how could you be proud of such tyranny which was the Soviet Union, it did more harm than good.

Also of course, Russia is much different than Soviet Russia, so just to make things clear, I am talking about Soviet Russia now.

Also, this forum is not Russian only, don't be selfish and try to make people celebrate tyranny, you could just aswell make a thread about 8th May and Soviet Russia would get some credit too, because they were the part of Allies too. Simple, next time do some research and think before you will make a thread that will lead into uncomfortable discussions.

EDIT: P.S: Apparently Soviet Union was obsessed about making themselves look like real heros with no cons. Remember the photo made by Yevgeny Khaldei which shows a Soviet soldier raising the flag over Reichstag? Apparently they were so afraid about the fact that the soldier was wearing two watches on each wrist that would ruin their reputation, so they censored it.

There are alot of things you don't know.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Tyrsero

[NeuroFunker 11]

i didn't know about 8th may, thats said.

[Tyrsero 10]

i didn't know about 8th may, thats said.

Shame, it's not like it's difficult to go to Wikipedia and just type "Victory Day" ;)

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Ups...yeah the term million was a mistake. I did not read or heard in documentaries about the overall amount of Tetraethyllead which got delivered.

The fact that Standard Oil was supplying axis and allies is actually well known in the economical history and Iam sure you will find more reputable sources, probably with the following infos even hints on wikipedia.

You're a bit confused there - those are joint ventures - during the war the JV was put on hold and the other German / Dutch partners did the trading, not Standard Oil (New Jersey), the JV was resumed after. Axis U-boats sunk 6 Standard Oil tankers during the war as Standard Oil (NJ) in the US was supplying the Allies. You are making assumptions because the same trading names continued to be used in Europe.

http://www.usmm.org/ww1merchant.html

[oxmox 73]

You're a bit confused there - those are joint ventures - during the war the JV was put on hold and the other German / Dutch partners did the trading, not Standard Oil (New Jersey), the JV was resumed after. Axis U-boats sunk 6 Standard Oil tankers during the war as Standard Oil (NJ) in the US was supplying the Allies. You are making assumptions because the same trading names continued to be used in Europe.

http://www.usmm.org/ww1merchant.html

I think you are missing something here. You should google for the difinition of a subsidiary (ownership & control /main shareholder) and more important the mentioned companies and their source of the imports. Iam not confused and I dont make assumptions, I did post a source from historians with the name of the University and a link to the documentary. There is another google book found online from Dr. Rainer Karlsch an economic historical, the book is called "Faktor Oel" about the german Oil economy with a lot more details, I could post the link aswell. Maybe the tankers did sail under a different flag. Iam sure you will find reputeable sources in your language if you dont speak french or german. Whats your source which describes the subsidiaries did stop with the cooperation ? But please, I dont want to start a fundamental discussion about the statements of historians or professors. Iam not gonna justify this case or convience you, you have to dig it for yourself or more details.

Edited May 14, 2013 by oxmox

[maturin 12]

We did not slauther our so to say "indians", 100s of various etnic groups, living on russian theritory. I can go on, but i must stop.

Not from lack of trying. The only reason there are still any Circassians around is because they have the same disease resistances as Russians, and what went on in Turkestan at the start of the 20th century rivals anything the U.S. did for wholesale slaughter.

Agressors my ass.

So yeah, just as aggressive (or was taking 2/5 of the earth's surface all self defense against border bandits) but not always as brutal. Although serfdom and slavery compare in interesting ways, especially given the date of emancipation.

I'm not piling dirt on Russia. More like pointing out similarities between American and Russian historical guilt.

Anyways, lay off the outrage, everyone. Anyone who complains about glorifying Communism when it comes to Victory Day doesn't understand much about Russian society. What the level of suffering does to people's historical memory is entirely external to ideology, and the Soviet war effort didn't have much socialist content at all. Just be glad your own countries didn't have to bear that brunt.

Edited May 14, 2013 by maturin

[NeuroFunker 11]

Not from lack of trying. The only reason there are still any Circassians around is because they have the same disease resistances as Russians, and what went on in Turkestan at the start of the 20th century rivals anything the U.S. did for wholesale slaughter.

So yeah, just as aggressive (or was taking 2/5 of the earth's surface all self defense against border bandits) but not always as brutal. Although serfdom and slavery compare in interesting ways, especially given the date of emancipation.

I'm not piling dirt on Russia. More like pointing out similarities between American and Russian historical guilt.

Anyways, lay off the outrage, everyone. Anyone who complains about glorifying Communism when it comes to Victory Day doesn't understand much about Russian society. What the level of suffering does to people's historical memory is entirely external to ideology, and the Soviet war effort didn't have much socialist content at all. Just be glad your own countries didn't have to bear that brunt.

i see, and totally agree with you.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

I think you are missing something here. You should google for the difinition of a subsidiary (ownership & control /main shareholder) and more important the mentioned companies and their source of the imports. Iam not confused and I dont make assumptions, I did post a source from historians with the name of the University and a link to the documentary. There is another google book found online from Dr. Rainer Karlsch an economic historical, the book is called "Faktor Oel" about the german Oil economy with a lot more details, I could post the link aswell. Maybe the tankers did sail under a different flag. Iam sure you will find reputeable sources in your language if you dont speak french or german. Whats your source which describes the subsidiaries did stop with the cooperation ? But please, I dont want to start a fundamental discussion about the statements of historians or professors. Iam not gonna justify this case or convience you, you have to dig it for yourself or more details.

Joint Venture?:

DAPG was founded on 25 February 1890 in Bremen as a joint venture between the German merchants Franz Ernst Schütte, Carl Anton Wilhelm Schütte and Riedemann and the American John D. Rockefeller of Standard Oil to operate the petroleum business of Standard Oil in Germany.

In 1904, the Standard Oil Company had 50% of the shares in the company and moved the headquarters to Hamburg.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch-Amerikanische_Petroleum_Gesellschaft

1910 - 1914: USA / Germany engage in long running diplomatic argument over German Oil Monopoly and plans to take over Standard Oils plants and property without compensation, Standard Oil reduced it's stock in DAPG as a consequence:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F40E17FA385A12738DDDAD0994DB405B848DF1D3

1914: German merchant fleet interred in US waters after USA declares neutrality, includes DAPG tankers:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=juBiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2ngNAAAAIBAJ&pg=1190,1556830&dq=german-american+petroleum+company&hl=en

1915: Standard Oil sells it's 30% stake in DAPG to German Capitalists after US entry into WW1 is predicted as inevitable, DAPG interred ships in USA transferred to SO control / DAPG fleet bought and used to supply oil to the Allies:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F00F16FF385F1B7A93C1A9178DD85F438185F9

1916: DAPG turns to Galician / Romanian oil wells to replace oil formerly imported from the United States.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F50816FC355B17738DDDA00994DF405B868DF1D3

The North Sea and the Adriatic were blockaded by the French and British along with extensive minefields. Any oil shipments from the USA to Germany from 1914 onwards wouldn't have been possible. The Blockade was so effective 750,000 Germans starved to death by 1919. So this theory of the USA/Standard Oil supplying both sides with oil is wrong? I am prepared to change my mind but it's not looking good?

Edited May 14, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[oxmox 73]

So this theory of the USA/Standard Oil supplying both sides with oil is wrong? I am prepared to change my mind but it's not looking good?

Thank you for the interesting links to newspapers archives, such are always intersting if you have time for it to read it. They add of course infos and are valueable, but they dont print everything what did happen in this time.

Maybe it was started as a joint venture, in 1904 the company did hold already 50%. If you google for Antony C. Sutton and his book "Wallstreet and the rise of Hitler", a former economic professor on california state university (cant say if he is debateable under historians), he writes that Standard Oil did hold 94% of the DAPG, I could not find a date or more infos searching quickly but he talks mainly about the 30ies and 40ies. http://tinyurl.com/cxwtoyt. In the other mentioned book it is said the german companies did got their ressources from the "cooperate parent" and other factory complexes like refineries did exist aswell, the book has a lot more details about the transport...maybe you can google translate it or find an english version.

http://tinyurl.com/bqlz5om. But Iam sure there are english economical history books around with this toppic.

This is not just a hypothesis, it is readable in books and on documentaries researched by historians and professors from Universities. And this is not the only case, there were companies in world war 2 for example who did double profits under the coat of allegedly neutrality. I dont want to convience you with my posts even I try to bring in some more details, but the economical history is less widespread than the political and military one. But its very interesting and Iam not trying to post some crap just from questionable webpages..

Well, for me the source of the documentary is sufficiant. Its a brilliant quality documentary with reputeable interview partner and not just some cheap production from a pay TV station. I think we did throw in enough hints and infos for those who want to dig deeper.

Corporates with the aim for pure profits will always find a way, they have clever business strategies and dont care about moralities.

Edited May 15, 2013 by oxmox

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

You would have to look in the 20's 30's to see if they bought stock back at some point after WW1.