Audio Tweaking (dev branch)

[Fushko 60]

He believes dynamic range is great but only to a certain degree because if you turn it up too high people will get ear & equipment damage and this is NOT needed to get a "i'm in the shit" feeling. There is a long road ahead of the audio team but they will do great stuff guys, patience. :)

Exactly. He simply believes that in order to have realistic sounds you should get hearing damage from playing videogames. How can someone even think of that.

"You can't ask for realistic sounds and ask for shots to not be painful in one sentence. " Yeah, say the same after you've compared Arma 3 to BF4, and try to tell me that BF4 sounds painful... End of dicussion I guess.

[John Kozak 14]

He believes dynamic range is great but only to a certain degree because if you turn it up too high people will get ear & equipment damage and this is NOT needed to get a "i'm in the shit" feeling. There is a long road ahead of the audio team but they will do great stuff guys, patience.

You see, I have no problems with that. But I don't get along well with people trying to publicly degrade me.

Exactly. He simply believes that in order to have realistic sounds you should get hearing damage from playing videogames. How can someone even think of that.

"You can't ask for realistic sounds and ask for shots to not be painful in one sentence. " Yeah, say the same after you've compared Arma 3 to BF4, and try to tell me that BF4 sounds painful... End of dicussion I guess.

Yes, being an asshole to someone always beats rational arguments. Totally. Now yes, end of discussion :)

Edited May 23, 2015 by DarkWanderer

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

The sounds can be painful. Crank your volume all the way up, and even the P07 will deafen you. trust me, i tried it. lol. Anyway, I like the new HMG sounds. The AA Tank sounds as well, however, it's hard to properly get AA cannon sounds, they fire pretty damn fast, but what we have now for them isn't bad at all. The explosion sounds for Auto cannon's however, sounds soooo bad now that the firing of the gun sounds better.

[Brisse 78]

The only infantry weapon that is painfully loud is the MAR-10, unless they fixed it recently because I haven't played the game in a week or two. It is (or was) much louder than any other infantry weapon.

[h - 169]

You might not have noticed this and it might sound weird, but erm... You do realize the thunder effects are ripped right out of a real recording... Right? In fact, the rain is still in there. You can hear it as the sound fades out. So pretty much, it's exactly how thunder sounds IRL. There are a million ways thunder can sound. Literally too many, it never ever sounds the same, and to some extent, I agree there should be more of a variation of thunder sounds.

Thank you for your condescending tone, much appreciated.

Erm... You do realize that something recorded in real life does not necessarily sound like it sounds in real life... Right?

By your logic for example all drums everywhere sound exactly like the drums on, say, Metallica's Black album...

EDIT:

Anyway, I have played A3 a lot in thunderous weather recently and it really does not sound anything like thunderous weather sounds for example where I live.

First of all the sounds are way too distant. For far way thunder the sounds don't sound right either.

And when thunder is right upon you the 'thunder roars' can be almost deafening..

Edited May 23, 2015 by h -

[alganthe 74]

Weapons are loud, yes but vehicles are even worse in the "I CAN'T HEAR SHIT" field.

Megagoth input is very valuable on this part and I hope the audio team will listen to him.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Erm... You do realize that something recorded in real life does not necessarily sound like it sounds in real life... Right?

...

The problem is variety. I understand what you mean. I've lived in Kentucky for a bit, and I can tell you the Thunder sounds different than say, the thunder I heard in Florida, or my home Toronto. The best way for BIS to get proper thunder effects wouldn't be by getting it to sound exactly from where you live. But rather, where the location is set. In other words, it makes sense for them to get Thunder sounds from an Island like Lemnos. However, if that hasn't already been done, than were screwed. We all know they aren't going back. =P

---------- Post added at 20:53 ---------- Previous post was at 20:53 ----------

EDIT: what we do need though, is more. Variety. But, I rather them finish working on weapon sounds for now.

[h - 169]

...

The problem is variety. I understand what you mean. I've lived in Kentucky for a bit, and I can tell you the Thunder sounds different than say, the thunder I heard in Florida, or my home Toronto. The best way for BIS to get proper thunder effects wouldn't be by getting it to sound exactly from where you live. But rather, where the location is set. In other words, it makes sense for them to get Thunder sounds from an Island like Lemnos. However, if that hasn't already been done, than were screwed. We all know they aren't going back. =P

---------- Post added at 20:53 ---------- Previous post was at 20:53 ----------

EDIT: what we do need though, is more. Variety. But, I rather them finish working on weapon sounds for now.

True true..

I have to apologize my tone, blame it partly on the dutch courage ;)

And partly on the fact I used to be a sound engineer back in the day (did both movie sound and record/mix bands) and I fully know how hard it is to record thunder.

If I still could find my old thunder recordings I would pass them free to BIS but no idea where the hell I have 'stored' those. :(

I do remember them also having the rain and other external sounds included which always pissed me off so in many cases I ended up making the thunder artificially (a piece of thin sheet metal gets you far, always loved foley)..

Also I'm strictly a SP person so immersion is huge deal for me in which minute details on weapon sounds do not play a huge part for me personally, if a weapon sounds like some weapon being fired that's enough for me.

Of course if the weapon has something very specific to it's sound then it's another thing..

Really liked the sound design in the movie Lone Survivor (albeit being realistic or not) which I guess BIS has seen considering the update on silenced weapon sounds ('Ready to punch the ticket' -- 'Dutishhhh' :P)..

I have to chime in on with the choir about the sonic cracks, while they actually sound pretty cool (no much idea on realism aspect) they're disorienting because they have reverb while the shots (or unsuppressed enemy weapons) seem to have none (? or am I hearing wrong), and do sound like suppressed weapons fired..

Anyhoo, back to thunder, I doubt though that the "sky" is that much higher in Greece than it's here in Finland, the sounds files themselves might be fine (I have not listened to them separately), they're just too subtle/distant/lack the room positional characteristics..

Would be really awesome if the sound guys would be allowed to make thunder distance variable (or if it is, more sound specific distance variety/filtering)..

Most things in A3 are really good, it's time for the AI and sound team to evolve/take ground... :)

And being a scripting enthusiast, give us all possible sound filtering/dynamics stuff via scripting commands (like we have with particles and postprocessing).. :p

[Tankbuster 1733]

Perhaps I'm missing the point and am going to be just as offtopic as anyone else here, but .. just one thing... the last time I fired a weapon, it WAS painfully loud.

Oh and yes.. while I'm posting...the sonic cracks. Utter rubbish. Complete waste of time and file space.

[roshnak 41]

Perhaps I'm missing the point and am going to be just as offtopic as anyone else here, but .. just one thing... the last time I fired a weapon, it WAS painfully loud.

Oh and yes.. while I'm posting...the sonic cracks. Utter rubbish. Complete waste of time and file space.

I don't think you are really missing the point. I think that is what DarkWanderer was saying, too.

The question I have for you is this: Do you think it is a good idea for a video game to cause people physical harm, or even physical discomfort, in the name of realism? Or do you think that it's okay to compromise and make things sound loud, but not uncomfortably loud?

I also don't really see how this is offtopic. Seems pretty clearly like audio tweaking discussion to me.

Edited May 23, 2015 by roshnak

[Tankbuster 1733]

The question I have for you is this: Do you think it is a good idea for a video game to cause people physical harm, or even physical discomfort, in the name of realism? Or do you think that it's okay to compromise and make things sound loud, but not uncomfortably loud?

I don't think any sensible person is going to suggest playing a game should, by design, harm it's players. I've lost enough hair just writing code for this damn series, let alone subjecting my hearing to an possible assault too. :)

But, going back to my experience of firing live rounds.. they are really loud. Properly loud. So loud, in fact that it seems odd to me that I can hear the weapon mechanism working directly after discharge. Or anything, for that matter. It should take a number of seconds for unprotected ears to hear something/anything after firing. Hearing the bolt moving? Nah. Hearing your own brass land? Nope. Hearing the echo of your own weapon? Not normally. The unprotected ear is in such shock from weapon fire that it hears sod all for a good few seconds. Let's not even start on the effects on hearing (and other bodily systems) of the shockwaves from explosions.

Now I'm not suggesting that the game should model this. Realistic and authentic it might be, but is it believable to the average gamer? Nope. I did read earlier that a user said gunshots in the game were painfully loud. I'm wondering what headphones/speaker set up this user has to generate such sound and was it sensible to have their hardware set up so that it was even able to make sounds at this level.

[roshnak 41]

But, going back to my experience of firing live rounds.. they are really loud. Properly loud. So loud, in fact that it seems odd to me that I can hear the weapon mechanism working directly after discharge. Or anything, for that matter. It should take a number of seconds for unprotected ears to hear something/anything after firing. Hearing the bolt moving? Nah. Hearing your own brass land? Nope. Hearing the echo of your own weapon? Not normally.

These are all things that should be considered when designing the sound, but don't necessarily depend on the loudness of the sounds in game. If you shouldn't hear mechanism operating, then just don't include that in the sound.

If you want to include this effect:

The unprotected ear is in such shock from weapon fire that it hears sod all for a good few seconds. Let's not even start on the effects on hearing (and other bodily systems) of the shockwaves from explosions.

You could do that by dampening the loudness of other sounds after firing a weapon. The player could have their volume turned down very low and still experience these effects.

I did read earlier that a user said gunshots in the game were painfully loud. I'm wondering what headphones/speaker set up this user has to generate such sound and was it sensible to have their hardware set up so that it was even able to make sounds at this level.

The original complaint was that gunshots are too loud in comparison to footsteps and the environment, so that in order to be able to hear those other sounds at the level he wanted to, FrankHH had to turn his volume up so much that gunshots were uncomfortably loud.

Edited May 24, 2015 by roshnak

[Fushko 60]

I did read earlier that a user said gunshots in the game were painfully loud. I'm wondering what headphones/speaker set up this user has to generate such sound and was it sensible to have their hardware set up so that it was even able to make sounds at this level.

I used to play with headphones. Now I play with speakers (to retain my ear health) and gun shots are still painful IF I want to properly hear footsteps and enviroment audio.

[doveman 7]

I used to play with headphones. Now I play with speakers (to retain my ear health) and gun shots are still painful IF I want to properly hear footsteps and enviroment audio.

The problem is that IRL gun shots are much louder than footsteps and environmental audio and considering the detrimental effect, even temporary, that gunshots will do to your hearing, you're probably not going to be able to hear footsteps and environmental sounds that well anyway half the time. So BIS can either make the sound very unrealistic, with limited dynamic range, so that footsteps are much louder than they should be and gunshots much quieter, or they can make it realistic with a wide dynamic range, which appears to be what a lot of people have been asking for.

You can pretty much achieve the former by enabling the Loudness Equalisation on your soundcard (I presume that's available on all Realtek onboard soundcards), which will increase the volume of the quieter sounds and reduce that of the louder sounds, so maybe that will give you want you want and then BIS can keep the wide dynamic range in-game for those who want that, although it's hard to see how anyone could really want to have it so that gunshots are deafening, or alternatively that they have to turn the volume down to prevent this and thus make quieter sounds inaudible.

[Fushko 60]

The problem is that IRL gun shots are much louder than footsteps and environmental audio and considering the detrimental effect, even temporary, that gunshots will do to your hearing, you're probably not going to be able to hear footsteps and environmental sounds that well anyway half the time. So BIS can either make the sound very unrealistic, with limited dynamic range, so that footsteps are much louder than they should be and gunshots much quieter, or they can make it realistic with a wide dynamic range, which appears to be what a lot of people have been asking for.

You can pretty much achieve the former by enabling the Loudness Equalisation on your soundcard (I presume that's available on all Realtek onboard soundcards), which will increase the volume of the quieter sounds and reduce that of the louder sounds, so maybe that will give you want you want and then BIS can keep the wide dynamic range in-game for those who want that, although it's hard to see how anyone could really want to have it so that gunshots are deafening, or alternatively that they have to turn the volume down to prevent this and thus make quieter sounds inaudible.

Loudness equalization needs to be done in-game, like Battlefield games do. You shouldn't have to use another software just to get proper sounds.

I've tried loudness equalization, both in Windows and in Realtek software, but the outcome is not ideal. After you've fired a shot, the game goes ultra quiet for too much time.

And I'm also asking for high dynamic range. Which is not there, when you consider the samples themselves (and not when comparing different samples). There is no punch in the current samples, it's all just ultra loud and flat audio with no real dynamics.

This mentality that high dynamic range means you need to have a painful sounding game needs to go. If games tried to achieve real life dynamic range, especially shooters, I doubt anyone here wouldn't have serious hearing damage, or even deafness.

[Tankbuster 1733]

I used to play with headphones. Now I play with speakers (to retain my ear health) and gun shots are still painful IF I want to properly hear footsteps and enviroment audio.

I don't have the same experience you have, though I am not in dev.

---------- Post added at 09:21 ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 ----------

I've tried loudness equalization, both in Windows and in Realtek software, but the outcome is not ideal. After you've fired a shot, the game goes ultra quiet for too much time.

If we're blindly going to strive for realism, then this is exactly what will happen. I'm not advocating we should, but this is one of the end results if we do.

We can either have Hollywood gunshots and muzzle reports that are no louder than shouting that satisfy the average users' EXPECTED rendition of gunfire, or we can attempt, within the limitations of the recording and playback software and hardware, to SIMULATE how these things are experienced by real light infantrymen.

Given that this game aspires to be more sim than game than other FPS titles, it's my view we should aim for the latter. But we'd need to educate users what that entails because you are adjusting your setup trying to circumvent to audio system as it si now, that you're making it too loud.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Tankbuster

[jumpinghubert 48]

Most headphones and loudspeakers have a peak (3-10db) in the 6000-10.000 hz area to give pseudoclearity. To equilize it down helps to make sounds louder without pain. A second factor is the distortion of cheap headphones and loadspeakers at higher volume levels.

My problem with the current sounds is not volume related but the absence of (realistic) filters of distant sounds, explosions and gunfire, particular air absorption.

[roshnak 41]

I used to play with headphones. Now I play with speakers (to retain my ear health) and gun shots are still painful IF I want to properly hear footsteps and enviroment audio.

Have you tried listening with headphones recently? Because I suspect that headphones will make it easier to hear the quiet sounds, allowing you to turn down the overall volume.

If we're blindly going to strive for realism, then this is exactly what will happen. I'm not advocating we should, but this is one of the end results if we do.

We can either have Hollywood gunshots and muzzle reports that are no louder than shouting that satisfy the average users' EXPECTED rendition of gunfire, or we can attempt, within the limitations of the recording and playback software and hardware, to SIMULATE how these things are experienced by real light infantrymen.

Given that this game aspires to be more sim than game than other FPS titles, it's my view we should aim for the latter. But we'd need to educate users what that entails because you are adjusting your setup trying to circumvent to audio system as it si now, that you're making it too loud.

Okay, well do you want the game to have uncomfortably, even painfully loud gunfire, or do you want basically everything else to be unhearably quiet? Because if we are going to strive for the maximum possible range between sounds, then that's going to be the result. There's always going to be compromises.

Instead of concerning ourselves with how "Hollywood" it sounds, maybe we should concern ourselves with how the game has to sound in order to deliver the information that needs to be available to the player.

Edit: I also don't think we should worry about loss of hearing after gunshots, since the game doesn't even try to do that. Like, I'm not saying that simulating it is a bad idea or that we shouldn't suggest it as a feature or something. I'm just saying that what FrankHH is experiencing with equalizers is definitely not intended.

Edited May 24, 2015 by roshnak

[megagoth1702 251]

You guys paying attention to the change log?

Added: New audio samples for Offroad HMG, Static HMG, vehicle HMG (Speedboat / Hunter / Ifrit / Strider). All samples have short, tail, close and distant variations.

While this is a nice step into the right direction (close & distant sounds should be different) and the system is not yet implemented the current audio files don't do a good job. Instead of having distinct, different characteristics, they sound similiar - the distant sound is mostly a processed (

) close sound, with a bit more punch mixed into it in some cases. Have a listen.

Download Arma HMG Sounds This could be done with ingame-filtering only. If you want to have distinct distant sounds, you have to work more or use distant recordings. Since many weapons sound the same over distance (barrel length & caliber are the main factors here, so MX & katiba would sound pretty much the same over distance) you don't need that many "distant" sounds.

A distant sound sounds different. Check this out.

Download 50cal recordings, (Chuck Russom Library)

Or something from TheRecordist.

The distant sounds have much more "pop" to them, NO mechanics, no early reflections (the very first reverb you hear before tail).

It is hard to create these without source material BUT I know for a fact you can create something better if you leave out the tail & mechanics sound out of the recording and play a lot with EQ etc. I did some very ugly tests back in arma2. Also the distant sound is VERY transient. While you sometimes get away with "non-dynamic/non transient" wall-of-sound sounds for close, you will not get away with it with distant sounds. It will always sound "off".

Again - this is bad. ||||||

This is good. ||||||

Edited May 26, 2015 by megagoth1702

[nigrinus 10]

You guys paying attention to the change log?

While this is a nice step into the right direction (close & distant sounds should be different) and the system is not yet implemented the current audio files don't do a good job. Instead of having distinct, different characteristics, they sound similiar - the distant sound is mostly a processed (

) close sound, with a bit more punch mixed into it in some cases. Have a listen.

Download Arma HMG Sounds This could be done with ingame-filtering only. If you want to have distinct distant sounds, you have to work more or use distant recordings. Since many weapons sound the same over distance (barrel length & caliber are the main factors here, so MX & katiba would sound pretty much the same over distance) you don't need that many "distant" sounds.

A distant sound sounds different. Check this out.

Download 50cal recordings, (Chuck Russom Library)

Or something from TheRecordist.

The distant sounds have much more "pop" to them, NO mechanics, no early reflections (the very first reverb you hear before tail).

It is hard to create these without source material BUT I know for a fact you can create something better if you leave out the tail & mechanics sound out of the recording and play a lot with EQ etc. I did some very ugly tests back in arma2. Also the distant sound is VERY transient. While you sometimes get away with "non-dynamic/non transient" wall-of-sound sounds for close, you will not get away with it with distant sounds. It will always sound "off".

Again - this is bad. ||||||

This is good. ||||||

You share my vision and are much more capable of explaining things. Thank you for your existence

[jumpinghubert 48]

Best common impression in the importance and the real characteristics of air dampening effects at distance is silvester and/or large fireworks. The capacity of remembering in acoustic phenomenons is very limited usually. This dampening thing for explosions/shots is the most important thing for athmosphere in soundmods in my point of view.

I have near zero hopes in BIS to make a good job in sounds (since Operation Flashpoint the worst soundmods were 1000x better than the default sounds) and I wish the soundmodders will make their good work in the future too.

[x3kj 1247]

I have near zero hopes in BIS to make a good job in sounds

Pft, pessimist. You can't have an instantaneous improvement of everything, esp. when there is a shortage of programmers who focus on sound.

[jumpinghubert 48]

Not of everything and not instant but in important aspects and since 2001 :p. Bad sounds is a constant since Operation Flashpoint. Anyway there are enough other aspects makes this product very good.

[x3kj 1247]

The 35mm AA still sounds a bit weird... It sounds more as if stuff is breaking, and with a badly compressed hall effect.

first half from close up, flat sounds, second half from distance with bass. Also pay particular attention to the impact sounds of the ammo in the second half. Note how short they sound, they have no "tail" basically. This is not just from the recording - it sounds like that in RL. Same with 120mm Mortars. The impact of the ammo sounds more like a "flop" then a "kaboom" in the distance.

very bass-rich recording

If you combine the flat sound with the bass sound you would have the right sound, i have experienced the sound of those cannons myself

The ending of this

you can hear the distant impacts. Bass lacks a bit, but apart from that it's accurate. Edited May 26, 2015 by Fennek

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

The 35mm AA still sounds a bit weird... It sounds more as if stuff is breaking, and with a badly compressed hall effect.

first half from close up, flat sounds, second half from distance with bass. Also pay particular attention to the impact sounds of the ammo in the second half. Note how short they sound, they have no "tail" basically. This is not just from the recording - it sounds like that in RL. Same with 120mm Mortars. The impact of the ammo sounds more like a "flop" then a "kaboom" in the distance.

very bass-rich recording

If you combine the flat sound with the bass sound you would have the right sound, i have experienced the sound of those cannons myself

The ending of this

you can hear the distant impacts. Bass lacks a bit, but apart from that it's accurate.

The impact sounds that way because there is no particular "enviornment" for the sound to bounce or reverb off of. Thus, no tail.