Not liking the new Fatigue system - Jogging should not be penalised

[ceeeb 147]

Coulum, yes, exhaustion in this case only means fatigue == 1, which is the maximum possible in game. It is clearly not meant to reflect the actual limits of human physical exhaustion, just the limit of how much the game wants to simulate fatigue.

Like any aspect of Arma, it could be made more complex, but like everything in life its bound to be a case of limited resources, higher priorities and diminishing returns (and presumably some performance loss).

The current effects of fatigue I am aware of:

* Cant sprint if fatigue > 0.5

* weapon sway increases with fatigue

* graphical and audio "noise" (graphics blur, breathing sounds etc)

Further effects can always be added by mod or mission designers, eg DayZ (temperature, food) and SBV (player collapses and possibly dies at maximum fatigue).

Edited May 10, 2013 by ceeeb

[EDcase 87]

I agree that you do get out of breath too quickly just jogging.

[Smurf 12]

Good work with those tables ceeeb.

[Second 0]

I dunno if jog should be something like steady state level which one can run for hour(s) with lactic acid levels at pretty much same, so it would be little beyond aerobic threshold level.

So movement with weapons raised would be aerobic movement, acting as active recovery mainly.

Jog would be extorting (painful and unpleasant) but doable for long time.

Running would be something like 1 minute balls out effort. highly rising lactic acids and some serious side effects.

Should stamina (glycogen levels of body) be taken into consideration at all? I don't think it should as it feels to be out of game's scope. I think jogging should be taxing enough to make character feeling unpeleasant, but it shouldn't never end up into 1 fatigue, maybe 0.5 would be proper. Only down side would be slightly negative accuracy for limited time, until fatigue drops to 0. There could be heavyish breathing voices involved, or then not, i can't tell. For real world similarity maybe lactic acid levels would around 3 or 4, so it's maximal steady state.

Running instead should result in high lactic acid levels, and thus fatigue rising rapidly into 1. When this happens movement gets slow and aiming and such are seriously hampered, blur and and tunnel vision maybe too, and i think it should be such until fatigue has hit zero. One can remain running but at severly slowed speed and serious sideeffects. And jogging doesn't bring character back to normal. Only way to do that is walking or remaining stationary.

So on what level fatigue would end up being, would define movement speeds along with cargo, stance and elevation of terrain. Basically. Walking is telling to character to take it slowly, jog would be telling character to go beyond boundaries of pleasantness but reaming just slightly above that level. Only running would burn character down.

And most of all, we need fatigue meter which tells us at which level of lactic acid our body is working at. Without it all fancy details are useless as they are pretty hard to notice without proper meter.

I think it pretty much like in RO2, but in bit more complicated manner. RO2 doesn't count terrain elevation as one factor, does it?

AI maybe better to be left untouched by this.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Second

[danny96 80]

I never see any blur while fatigued.. Postprocessing settings - Medium.

[-=seany=- 5]

I tried running across hills for minutes and still get no blur effect so I have no idea where people see it.

With Post Process at it's highest setting, yes?

Thanks for that nice table Ceeeb.

[metalcraze 290]

Well it works after today's update. And I kinda like it. Maybe blur should be toned down a bit but still it just forces you either to use a transport or take a short 10-20s break after running for a km (and I started getting blurred vision only after running a km through hills non-stop with a backpack). It's a great idea overall, maybe needs some polish.

Another good counter to "running forever" without forcing the player to walk would be lowering the jogging speed when tired instead of keeping it constant at all times (at least it seems constant).

If you are forced to put on a heavy load and then run for kilometers - either you or the mission maker are doing something very wrong. And in fact I bet this will encourage mission makers to use transports more.

[Wolfstriked 11]

I see weapon lowered being mentioned here.Is that actually modeled in Arma3 or is it another case of yrs of thinking something is modeled only to find out it never was.Seen it happen in so many simulations that I really feel that devs should step in and say NO its not to shut it down.

[EDcase 87]

I see weapon lowered being mentioned here.Is that actually modeled in Arma3 or is it another case of yrs of thinking something is modeled only to find out it never was.Seen it happen in so many simulations that I really feel that devs should step in and say NO its not to shut it down.

Look in weapon key bindings. There is a lower weapon toggle.

[sproyd 2]

In the latest dev build my character sounds like he is having an asthma attack after sprinting up a hill for 10 seconds. Trained soldiers should be able to handle intense bursts as well as sustained jogging with equipment for at least a couple of Kms.

[chortles 263]

If you are forced to put on a heavy load and then run for kilometers - either you or the mission maker are doing something very wrong. And in fact I bet this will encourage mission makers to use transports more.

My default premise is that the mission maker did indeed "do something very wrong" here.

Look in weapon key bindings. There is a lower weapon toggle.

At last check the default keybind is still double-tapping Left Ctrl, just like in Arma 2.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Thanks friends but I know about weapon lowering as I have posted threads about making it default and have also posted that when weapon is lowered the stamina should regain slightly to cause players to have weapon lowered more often.I do find that most people in MP lower their weapons alot,be it for immersion or believing that it helps with stamina I have no9 idea.

My question though was if the stamina drain/replenishment when lowering the weapon is even modeled.

[chortles 263]

I do find that most people in MP lower their weapons alot,be it for immersion or believing that it helps with stamina I have no9 idea.

This is actually really interesting if you're seeing this across multiple different missions -- though I imagine that with public players it's probably way more for "believing that it helps with stamina" than for immersion's sake; I find myself usually in combat pace when I'm intending to shoot on the move and rarely walk except when I intend to "regain" stamina.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Yes I see it on different missions.Its funny as I made a post asking for lowered weapons regaining stamina slightly with the intention of forcing players to do it as low stamina sucks.Maybe I should just go in MP and start spreading the word....

[bigpickle 0]

http://youtu.be/Rb0uBpc37Ws

[bad benson 1733]

edit: wow now that^ sounds really overdone. is that the latest dev build? i had to switch back because of crashes. keep in mind though that sound volumes are all screwed at the moment since they changed the sound system and all of them have to be reevaluated and get new volume values.

In the latest dev build my character sounds like he is having an asthma attack after sprinting up a hill for 10 seconds. Trained soldiers should be able to handle intense bursts as well as sustained jogging with equipment for at least a couple of Kms.

yea and they do all that while holding their breaths of course. soldiers are humans and there muscles need oxygen. sure the breathing is a bit dramatic only if you compare it to other games. it was always in arma and nobody complained. it's immersive. much better than a quiet machine like super human.

i know this discussion is constructive now but reading all these different opinions and seeing how subjective they are i really start the miss the olden days when devs where more like artists. they just delivered their vision and you liked it or not. i mean so many people were hating on arma 2 and everything that made it special but still there were also so many people who loved it for what it is. i hate to make the comparison but that kind of "business model" is what spawns stuff like CODMW and all the other washed out wannabe sequels of old classics. just a smooth ride with no profile at all. just don't annoy the mighty customer and all will be good.

if i was working for BI i would force myself to never read the forums. for some reason nowadays people act so entitled and seem to think they have a say in everything just because they payed a few bucks for it.

ideas like having different soldier types with different values are the kind of over design and forced compromise that breaks a game. people will just use only the units with the best values in their missions especially since you can customize the soldier's appearance 100% now. i worked quite a lot with the current fatigue in my mod with constant monitoring of the values. and as someone who refused to use ACE just because of its fatigue system i find the current one very far from anything overdone. it's a joke compared to ACE.

sorry for the rant. this thread turned out rather nice and i too hate the blur but sometimes i really ask myself what happened. why is there no trust in the devs? they made great games before.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Bad Benson

[St. Jimmy 272]

http://youtu.be/Rb0uBpc37Ws

Wow didn't know they have added some nice effects. I think that's looking good. Little tweaking need to be done of course but good basics so far. Need to go test how easily soldier gets tired.

/Actually now that I tested this I have to say good job BIS. I jogged about 800m almost flat until I got first visual effects. When it's uphill you can't just sprint like nothing. You have to take those side effects or go slow jog/walk.

//Oh and another addition. Screen sides aren't that blurred anymore with PP on so finally I can use it on normal.

Edited May 10, 2013 by St. Jimmy

[sproyd 2]

@Bad Benson I agree with most of your points.

In regards to the fatigue system I know its a WIP - however I refer to the video above which is what I mean by asthma attack its a bit ridiculous. Most ppl that run marathons don't sound that bad and I was at the 40km mark spectacting the London marathon 2 weeks ago.

[Wolfstriked 11]

When I am winded to the extreme it feels like that though.

[bad benson 1733]

pretty sure it's the dev build sound stuff. much like the mechanical clicking sounds of the rifles being very loud now. it has been said by the devs that all tweaking from before was rendered useless after the recent sound changes and all the values have to be set again. i have to agree that the way he's breathing is kinda choppy and dramatic though. a more controlled sporty kind of way would be cool. haven't played arma 2 recently but i always liked how it sounded there. but i'll now take my own advice and wait and let them do their thing now ;)

Edited May 11, 2013 by Bad Benson

[ceeeb 147]

Thanks friends but I know about weapon lowering as I have posted threads about making it default and have also posted that when weapon is lowered the stamina should regain slightly to cause players to have weapon lowered more often.I do find that most people in MP lower their weapons alot,be it for immersion or believing that it helps with stamina I have no9 idea.

My question though was if the stamina drain/replenishment when lowering the weapon is even modeled.

It is, currently walking with rifle lowered makes player recover slightly faster (-0.00504/s compared to -0.00500/s), but unfortunately jogging with rifle lowered is currently significantly more tiring that raised (0.00383/s vs 0.00288/s)! When standing still it makes no difference (-0.0200/s).

Edited May 10, 2013 by ceeeb

[-=seany=- 5]

i know this discussion is constructive now but reading all these different opinions and seeing how subjective they are i really start the miss the olden days when devs where more like artists. they just delivered their vision and you liked it or not. i mean so many people were hating on arma 2 and everything that made it special but still there were also so many people who loved it for what it is. i hate to make the comparison but that kind of "business model" is what spawns stuff like CODMW and all the other washed out wannabe sequels of old classics. just a smooth ride with no profile at all. just don't annoy the mighty customer and all will be good.

if i was working for BI i would force myself to never read the forums. for some reason nowadays people act so entitled and seem to think they have a say in everything just because they payed a few bucks for it.

Yes, I can see where you are coming from with this. I would agree.

[metalcraze 290]

I do find that most people in MP lower their weapons alot,be it for immersion or believing that it helps with stamina I have no9 idea.

Immersion or stamina have nothing to do with it.

A. It works like a safety which is sadly not present by default in the game (if you will click there will be no misfire)

B. You don't want to walk around other people with your gun raised and pointing it at their faces whenever you face them - it just makes everyone really uncomfortable - what if you will click by mistake?

C. Gun obscures quite a lot of view since there's no low-ready stance and if lowering it gets you additional 20% FOV - why not?

yea and they do all that while holding their breaths of course. soldiers are humans and there muscles need oxygen. sure the breathing is a bit dramatic only if you compare it to other games. it was always in arma and nobody complained. it's immersive. much better than a quiet machine like super human.

True. But it's even better in ArmA3. I love how the soldier gets out of breath gradually, first it's light breathing, then heavier and when he's out of breath he starts coughing a bit. It's very immersive and I hope BIS won't ditch it.

Then again in OFP there also was a sound of your heart beating. It was quite loud and thus not quite realistic but it only made running a lot more tense.

Edited May 11, 2013 by metalcraze

[Second 0]

In regards to the fatigue system I know its a WIP - however I refer to the video above which is what I mean by asthma attack its a bit ridiculous. Most ppl that run marathons don't sound that bad and I was at the 40km mark spectacting the London marathon 2 weeks ago.

In maranthon one doesn't work at his Vo2max, 800 meters is much more better at that.

Mainly i dislike swallowing and stops in his breathing cycle, as if he would be suffocating into his own spit. It makes me feel physically bad and almost hyperventilate myself. Like he's having flu and slime all over his throat, nose and mouth and at the same time he didn't warm up properly. Strenght of breathing sound is okay.

If they would make goggles to fog aswell... :bounce3:

[dmarkwick 261]

Well it works after today's update. And I kinda like it. Maybe blur should be toned down a bit but still it just forces you either to use a transport or take a short 10-20s break after running for a km (and I started getting blurred vision only after running a km through hills non-stop with a backpack). It's a great idea overall, maybe needs some polish.

Another good counter to "running forever" without forcing the player to walk would be lowering the jogging speed when tired instead of keeping it constant at all times (at least it seems constant).

If you are forced to put on a heavy load and then run for kilometers - either you or the mission maker are doing something very wrong. And in fact I bet this will encourage mission makers to use transports more.

Immersion or stamina have nothing to do with it.

A. It works like a safety which is sadly not present by default in the game (if you will click there will be no misfire)

B. You don't want to walk around other people with your gun raised and pointing it at their faces whenever you face them - it just makes everyone really uncomfortable - what if you will click by mistake?

C. Gun obscures quite a lot of view since there's no low-ready stance and if lowering it gets you additional 20% FOV - why not?

True. But it's even better in ArmA3. I love how the soldier gets out of breath gradually, first it's light breathing, then heavier and when he's out of breath he starts coughing a bit. It's very immersive and I hope BIS won't ditch it.

Then again in OFP there also was a sound of your heart beating. It was quite loud and thus not quite realistic but it only made running a lot more tense.

Agree with both posts. Particularly about the safety mechanism, I personally wouldn't like to see safety switches on weapons but the weapon lowered does exactly the same thing without annoyances so it's all good :)