Shooting around corners

[Sneakson 1]

First, weather I can shoot or throw a grenade around the corner without looking doesn't change the fact I will need to enter the room or go around the corner to check. Second, the chance I will effectively hit something shooting indiscriminately is so low it's not worth giving my position away.

Third, you gloss over my implication about the significance of fratricide in real life which has long term psychological and legal implications.

All of which is why indiscriminate fire is neither taught nor endorsed and in many cases strongly discouraged (often legally and frequently by ROE) by military forces worldwide.

For the sake of discussion yes, you can stick this capability in for insurgents and what have you. However with respect I think the theme you will find in my posts and others is that the sum of benefits of this idea in respect to what ArmA is and is trying to be is somewhat lower than what you think it is.

In action games I encounter that situation all the time: I know there's an enemy in a small room -- perhaps I saw him, or his muzzle flash, or a grenade he threw, or saw one of my friendlies get shot, or heard him or just about whatever you know.

In fact I encountered this situation in Ghost Recon just some days ago against the Elite AI with split-second reactions.

Basically the only thing I could do was go in guns blazing which got me shot like 4 out of 5 times. Trying to lean around the corner would get me shot before I even saw him.

Blind-firing would had been my natural reaction even though there was a hostage in the room. Going in either way would put the hostage at some serious risk – or my entire team.

I think ARMA should be a sandbox indeed. Any other opinion is just pretty elitist.

Naturally everyone should remain somewhat scared that they go for the mainstream approach increasing sales but dumbing down gameplay though. Only reasonably scared.

Basically why I knew blind-firing would be controversial even as I posted it is because it's never been widely done before and shooting around walls is strongly associated with cheating.

People wouldn't think it was fair to be shot by an enemy who doesn't even have to expose himself entirely -- even in reality I think that would be a natural reaction.

Reality isn't fair though. And the most clever one wins. Camouflage isn't fair. Drones aren't fair at all. WWI automatic machineguns weren't fair. Medieval crossbows weren't fair. And here we are today.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Sneakson

[machineabuse 11]

There are such a thing as room clearing tactics you know. And by the way leaning around a doorframe will get you killed rather quick regardless of how you slice it. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind having blind firing in at all (In fact it gives me an advantage of finding, maneuvering and killing you when you do it.). But I would rather have many other things before having blind fire.

Also I anticipated Corner Shot coming up in this discussion and my reply is simply that showing a new system of aiming a gun doesn't help your case for wanting to shoot it blind.

Also, even if you did have blind fire, keep in mind that the only way it should be implemented is that you cannot see what you are shooting at in any respect including 3rd person.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Machineabuse
elaboration

[Tonci87 163]

There are such a thing as room clearing tactics you know. And by the way leaning around a doorframe will get you killed rather quick regardless of how you slice it. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind having blind firing in at all (In fact it gives me an advantage of finding, maneuvering and killing you when you do it.). But I would rather have many other things before having blind fire.

Also I anticipated Corner Shot coming up in this discussion and my reply is simply that showing a new system of aiming a gun doesn't help your case for wanting to shoot it blind.

Also, even if you did have blind fire, keep in mind that the only way it should be implemented is that you cannot see what you are shooting at in any respect including 3rd person.

Yeah I guess that is the main problem some people have with blind firing. Other guys might exploit it by using 3rd person.

[dmarkwick 261]

Shooting around corners + 3rd person + crosshairs - suppression = forum meltdown.

[chortles 263]

Shooting around corners + 3rd person + crosshairs - suppression = forum meltdown.

That alone is reason enough for me to want to see it happen. Edited April 18, 2013 by Chortles

[keefehb 0]

Define "the BI community".

Most of us, the people who play it for the realism aspects.

[HKFlash 9]

Most of us, the people who play it for the realism aspects.

Just for the realism aspects?

[nodunit 397]

Lern2Lean. But in all seriousness, nobody on the BI community wants to see kids running around blind firing around corners.

Tactically speaking, NATO military forces don't do this in operations as there would be unavoidable civilian casualties.

Shoot accurately and lay down suppression fire, not wildly spray around corners.

Don't define a massive group of people down to one opinion, because its not true.

If you scoured this thread more rather than simply put in your two cents then you would see that several people are on board and for varying reasons.

Firstly how about thinking outside of conventional military, each game had civil and guerilla forces afterall.

Most of us, the people who play it for the realism aspects.

And what realism aspect is that? What is possible or what real militaries do?

Do you limit yourself to conventional and ignore the fact that not all sides in the Arma series are conventional and thus they could have features as well?

For example take Operation Arrowhead into account, say you're playing as the insurgents, would you honestly care about civilian collateral?

What about the fact that civilians are so rare in arma conflicts saved for special scenario's.

Edited April 18, 2013 by NodUnit

[Smurf 12]

So.... what are yours suggestions to key binding for that?

That is the big problem that I can think with implementing this system.

[lordprimate 159]

So.... what are yours suggestions to key binding for that?

That is the big problem that I can think with implementing this system.

Well if you are firmular with SMK .. all you had to do was bind a key to "turbo" and press "turbo"+ "A" or("S" or "D") and you would blind fire to the "left" or ("above your head" or " to your right") respectively.. It is rather easy to use in ARMA 2..

So far i have see several posts about how HARD it would be to impleiment the key binds... NOT THE CASE..

download @SMK and set up a turbo key(I use my #4 mouse button) and you will see how easy it is to use...

you cant aim for shit!! but the key press is easy!

[chortles 263]

Just for the realism aspects?

I showed up for the moddability and the sandbox that neither COD nor BF were going to give me.

[seamusgod 1]

then you showed up for the wrong reasons. what happens when bis decides they don't want to cater to the people who came in from steam and never played a second of either ofp or arma? clearly, moddability and sandbox are not enough to keep the call of duty and bf players interested. they want this game to sacrifice realism and everything that makes it special, and be more like a more tacticool, milquetoast version of those other games. your signature is a perfect encapsulation of this mindset. guess what? i'm glad they slowed down the movement speed.

[chortles 263]

Ahahahaha like there's such a thing as "wrong reason to play Arma"... :rolleyes: Though, notice how my sig doesn't mention movement speed? There's a reason for that. ;)

I am sincere about the "neither COD nor BF were going to give me" part though; as you may have seen from my answers in the BF4 thread, I don't have a problem with the BF3/BF4 gameplay specifics so much as I do with how obviously EA is trying to ape Activision and how that... frankly, envy... affects gameplay development decisions, how obviously that's influencing BF4 development**, and I believe that I tried to imply in my responses that part of my liking for Arma stems from a liking for BI's business practices, i.e. DLC policies.

On a more relevant note, I will agree with the sentiment though that third-person essentially "breaks" the "blind" aspect of blindfire. Unfortunately I don't have an immediate answer for how to overcome that*, though at this point in time it seems that the current greater-than-Arma-2 complexity of movement/stance controls is already a greater impediment to implementation, which is certainly a fair reason to leave out blindfire... Lordprimate, the "SMK animations mod" method for blindfire controls is already being used for the stance adjust system!

* That is, it would seem that "first-person only" servers wouldn't have this issue and blindfire would actually be "fair" to implement there, but I don't have an immediate solution for use on third-person-enabled servers.

** EA even sacrificed the damn Medal of Honor name at the altar of "Battlefield, COD-killer wannabe". :rolleyes:

Edited April 19, 2013 by Chortles

[machineabuse 11]

Force 1st person in blindfire, like ADS :)

There you go; you wanted blind, have blind.

[chortles 263]

Hey, "blind" is right in the name! :lol: Here's wondering whether that's actually possible though or whether we're "hard limited" to ADS as what forces first-person due to either engine limitations or "limits of what the devs can get the engine to do". :(

Question to those who've played RO2 -- did it in fact have a "sticky" cover system to complement its first-person blindfire mechanic? I ask this seeing as Arma doesn't have sticky cover while SMK had a frankly incomplete and not-really-sticky "emulation" thereof, and Arma 3 still doesn't have sticky cover (in fact the stance adjust system is a response to the lack thereof).

[dnk 13]

Not really a corner... tune to 5:54.

[Sneakson 1]

So.... what are yours suggestions to key binding for that?

That is the big problem that I can think with implementing this system.

I made some suggestions before.

Basically imagine running up to a wall corner, then you press a blind-firing button and your character automatically sticks the gun to the right/left if you're at a corner and otherwise up under all other circumstances.

Auto-detection for corners shouldn't be difficult and having it always go up when not at a corner means the game won't have to determine when you're hiding behind a rock or wall which probably is trickier but absolutely not impossible.

While you press the button your look direction freezes and the mouse instead controls the direction of the gun (move mouse right = point the gun right) and shoot as normal.

If auto-detection works poorly your movement could also be frozen and WASD be used to control gun position to manually move it up, to the left, right or down around obstacles.

Either that or the command could simply stick out the gun without any particular direction but not being able to direct your blind fire based on educated guesses where you enemy is would be really useless.

If the default simply makes you put your gun up in the air the command would also be useful when proning or in whatever situation your want to fire from a sligthly higher position to shoot above stuff up ahead.

Not really a corner... tune to 5:54.

It would be pretty nice if you did that automatically when you're crouched behind rocks instead of having your barrel below your field of vision so you end up shooting the rocks thinking you're gonna shoot over it. Always annoying.

Does the game already do something like that after the latest patch when rounding corners by the way? While in the tight lighthouse I noticed my guy waving his weapon left and right as if I had been adjusting even though I wasn't.

I mean games are supposed to emulate control over your body and noone ever wants to shoot a rock or obstacle they're hiding behind.

Anyways guys don't forget to vote on the feedback ticket in the OP! It started off massively negative and originally the ticket was about some other similar features also, I think and as such it may be more negative than it should.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Sneakson

[dnk 13]

The cursor changes when you're going to fire at rocks (gets larger, I think). It's one of the little improvements I've really liked about the new game.

[Smurf 12]

Question to those who've played RO2 -- did it in fact have a "sticky" cover system to complement its first-person blindfire mechanic? I ask this seeing as Arma doesn't have sticky cover while SMK had a frankly incomplete and not-really-sticky "emulation" thereof, and Arma 3 still doesn't have sticky cover (in fact the stance adjust system is a response to the lack thereof).

It does but if feels kind of natural, unlike most games.

[bad benson 1733]

i find sticky cover to be a very annoying thing in most games. while it kinda looks cool it also makes fire fights less organic. i find the current stance system much more interesting to use. sticky also would make the gap between how AI and human players look bigger. and looking at how the AI of arma functions i don't think it's a good idea to make them use sticky cover.

what would make most sense to me is replace the side ways adjust animations that are ingame now with blind fire ones. meaning leave the feature like it is but replace the animations with ones where the character stretches his arms out to the side. i never use the side step lean since it's way harder to know how far you gonna expose yourself compared to normal lean. the fact that you don't just have to release the key like with normal leaning to go back to normal but have to use a combination to go back into cover makes it feel unorganic and unnecessary. the prone ones are more usable since the prone position is a more stationary one by default but i would gladly trade them with blind fire animations.

something that would also be needed is a lot more recoil for blind fire since you are holding the gun in a way less stable way. this would be more convincing and also counter it becoming a ridiculous practice which it would quickly become after people getting used to it and knowing the exact sweet spot for aiming in 3rd person view.

[chortles 263]

The cursor changes when you're going to fire at rocks (gets larger, I think). It's one of the little improvements I've really liked about the new game.

RiE explained that this is pretty much the intent behind the new "crosshair jump".

[Sneakson 1]

It would be really simple if CTRL+Q/E simply was used to stick your gun out left or right, then froze your position and made the mouse control weapon direction instead of look direction.

Only problem then would be blind firing up by holding your weapon higher than your head since CTRL+WASD is already in use.

You could bind it to something random, somewhat unintuitive like CTRL+X I guess... or if we get to bind our own buttons for adjusting I might put adjust up/down on CTRL+Z/C which are my stand/prone buttons or something.

Some people have also requested being able to bind adjusting to the mouse wheel instead. As long as players get a free choice I’m pretty sure we’ll develop a way to control it intuitively.

Anyways CTRL+Q/E isn't used for anything right now if I remember correctly and that would be a very simple way to get blind-firing controls into the game without changing a thing and being extremely intuitive since CTRL is for adjust stances always.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Sneakson

[Earion 1]

After having read most of the thread (but not everything, sorry if this is nothing new), my 2 cents in 2 points :

1. The french army has developed a remote-aiming system as part of the FELIN package.
   
   Check out this video. Speech is in french, but even I can't get what the guy is saying and it doesn't matter.
   I doubt they are the only one, or even the first, to come up with that idea. I don't know how usable that system is in real-life. But if it is, or if improvement can make it usable, you can bet these are gonna be quite common, or at least generally available, by 2035. And it could work nicely with blindfire animations, or even Picture-in-picture if using some PDA on the wrist or chest.
   Why the French armed forces decided to invest money in this stuff, instead of buying better weapons, basic tactical gear, transport choppers or even reliable drones is beyond me, but it's another story - let's call it another instance of french "cultural exception"
   
2. I've read some posts about jumping... Saying how jumping is useless IRL to get on top of stuff. Might be true, but IRL I don't jump for that, I jump to get over any kind of gaps, such as a ditch... Long jumps, not high jumps. High jump if I want to scale a wall of course.
   

Last thing : I think Arma is still very far from a cover-based rail-shooter, aren't we ? It's not because you do not like those games that every single thing they made is bad. Indeed, I get quite angry with all this "l337" talk about how we, the chosen ones, the true hardcore ArmA armchair vets, are so much better than that bunch of "CoD kiddies" scum... Making it a holy crusade to just crap on every single aspect of those games... And saying "Ahem, no talking about this and that, thank you", while laughing like uptight dandies considering how ridiculous and lame those suggestions were. This is actually childish.

[chortles 263]

I admittedly tend to disregard talk of CornerShot type systems because frankly they are not blindfire; as for why the French would invest in such a system? They got aboard the "future soldier" train like a number of Western militaries did, and such capability tends to be part of such designs?

[Sneakson 1]

Remote vision guns and cornershots aren't blindfire but they're related enough to also be discussed here.

I don't mind them. And if anyone does mind them they'll just have to play servers that don't use them.

In a year ARMA3 is probably going to have everything from dinosaurs to ponies thanks to the mod community so arguing any feature some people may like and some people may not like shouldn't be implemented is pretty pointless duh.

ARMA's going sandbox style.

Anyways Ghost Recon 2 (9 years old now) has this gun called the XM29 OICW with remote vision, airburst grenades, night vision, thermal vision, 6x zoom, you name it...

In reality it continued development into the XM25 CDTE and it was apparently deployed in 2010 and entering full use this year.

The wiki site doesn't mention anything about remote vision though. Airburst grenades are still badass.

I think critics are going to react if ARMA3 doesn’t come with ANY high tech stuff even though it’s set 20 years into the future.

Ghost Recon: Future Soldier is set only 10 years into the future and has active camo, ground drones and all sorts of wild sci-fi nonsense.