General Discussion (dev branch)

[da12thMonkey 1943]

9 hours ago, Imperator[TFD] said:

 

Why not just lock onto the laser at that point?

In vanilla Arma, against AI. There's not much reason not to lase from the start and lock on at that point if you can find the laser spot.

Other than maybe where you're doing a toss attack from behind terrain (though CCIP isn't really helpful in doing this - you'd need to practise well-defined altitude/speed/AOA release patterns to get the bomb in the right area).

If BIS make it so sensors can detect laser emission sources similar to passive radar sensor, and respond defensively (deploy countermeasures, direct weapons towards the laser emitter etc. - think how Shtora works); that might change the incentives for LOAL. But I don't expect they will.

 

But as @Strike_NOR points out, it's a matter of reflecting what the weapons are actually capable of doing. And in MP where you can have people who actually notice when there's a hostile laser designator appearing, it will be useful.

Also if one is to make an aircraft that doesn't have a laser sensor that is able "lock" on to sources before release (allowsMarking= 0; or simply no native laser sensor on the launch platform), they would still be able to employ LBGs by letting them seek their own targets during the terminal phase.

Might actually look at doing that on some vehicles in RHS where it would be more realistic to do so: I had to add a laser sensor to the UH-60 ESSS, to get the available Hellfire and DAGR loadouts to lock on to external JTAC/Apache/UAV lasers. But if we add LOAL to the missiles, I can probably remove the Blackhawk's sensor.

 

↓ Makes an excellent point about max range vs sensor ranges too ↓

[HaseDesTodes 62]

49 minutes ago, Imperator[TFD] said:

Why not just lock onto the laser at that point?

 

not exactly sure what point (of time) you mean, but i assume you mean the point, at which you drop the bomb.

as already said by Strike and Monkey a very important reason is, to make sure the enemy has less time to react, but an other important thing for me, is that you can drop bombs from ranges/altitudes, that do not allow your vehicle sensors to pick up the targets, so locking is not possible.

e.g. when i was testing, i dropped a bomb from 5000m altitude from around 9000m (laser) distance (insert trigonometric calculation for real distance here :) ).with CCIP and great view distances, it's at least possible to get the bomb close enough to find the laser target while you stay far away from enemy aa systems.

[ski2060 167]

@da12thMonkey   I don't know if you use ACE 3 or anything, but they have an LOAL mode for Hellfires. Maybe talk to them about how they achieved that and see if you can import or adapt that for the RHS Hellfires?
 

[2nd ranger 282]

BIS, now that we have African CSAT, it's time to bring back... Booniehat Hex!

 

H_BoonieHat_indp and H_BoonieHat_dgtl are the same thing, let's have the hex variant back! xoxo

[gatordev 214]

7 hours ago, da12thMonkey said:

Also if one is to make an aircraft that doesn't have a laser sensor that is able "lock" on to sources before release (allowsMarking= 0; or simply no native laser sensor on the launch platform), they would still be able to employ LBGs by letting them seek their own targets during the terminal phase.

Might actually look at doing that on some vehicles in RHS where it would be more realistic to do so: I had to add a laser sensor to the UH-60 ESSS, to get the available Hellfire and DAGR loadouts to lock on to external JTAC/Apache/UAV lasers. But if we add LOAL to the missiles, I can probably remove the Blackhawk's sensor.

 

I can't speak to GBUs, but for Hellfires (and I think APKWS), there's still an indication of laser energy being received by the weapon.  I'm not saying that's equivalent to a "Lock" (a la previous Arma iterations), but there's still an indication that the weapon isn't going to be fired and not able to see the target, assuming everything else goes to plan.  This is also in part why there's some geometry (fans) figured into buddy lased shots to ensure everyone is within each other's cone of "vision," if you will.

 

Why do I mention this?  Just to point out that, within the game, having zero indication of laser energy for the shooter isn't the best option, both for player confusion and to satisfy some simulation of reality.

[Strike_NOR 898]

4 minutes ago, gatordev said:

Why do I mention this?

 

This makes good sense for missiles, because of their horizontal velocity, if they lose lock, who knows where they might land(explode). The GBU at least will always hit somewhere nearby.

[gatordev 214]

2 minutes ago, Strike_NOR said:

 

This makes good sense for missiles, because of their horizontal velocity, if they lose lock, who knows where they might land(explode). The GBU at least will always hit somewhere nearby.

 

Yeah, like friendlies nearby.

[HeroesandvillainsOS 1504]

Quote

Tweaked: Laser-guided bombs are now fully LOAL (lock-on after launch) and no longer lock on targets

 

I don’t do a ton of combined arms stuff, so I’m sure I’m just not understanding this bit in the changelog, but does this mean it’s impossible to lock target in SP with AI now? I’m assuming the target needs to be lazed?

 

How would a solo player use laser guided bombs with LOAL if they can’t manually lock themselves?

[ski2060 167]

46 minutes ago, HeroesandvillainsOS said:

 

I don’t do a ton of combined arms stuff, so I’m sure I’m just not understanding this bit in the changelog, but does this mean it’s impossible to lock target in SP with AI now? I’m assuming the target needs to be lazed?

 

How would a solo player use laser guided bombs with LOAL if they can’t manually lock themselves?

Are you talking flying your own aircraft in a Single player mission?  If so you just acquire the target with your TGP and lase it yourself before dropping your ordnance.

[dragon01 902]

Or, once LWR systems are implemented, drop the bomb in the general area around the target, then lase it shortly before bomb impact. It now works quite well and will direct the bomb to the target just fine. That's how it's done IRL.

[Strike_NOR 898]

As far as I can tell, there is only one thing here that can potentially go wrong.

 

Imagine the following COOP mission:

 

A group of players are playing against AI, they are attacking an enemy-held town. Besides various ground forces that will lead the attack, supporting roles are:

CAS Jet with GBU's

JTAC/Observer

Sniper team with laser designator.

 

Now the following happens: The JTAC Discovers an armored vehicle moving around amidst the town, he reports it in to the CAS Jet.

CAS Jet receives order, starts flying over the area with TGP and locates the armored vehicle and stabilizes the TGP to track it.

As the CAS jet is maneuvering to get ready for an attack run, the JTAC is trying to lase the enemy VIC with his laser designator, but due to the vehicle moving around, it is often hidden from line of sight every now and then.

Meanwhile.... the sniper team is in "their own world" using the laser designator to range some enemy infantry patrol, about 150 meters to the side of the armored vehicle.

 

The CAS Jet now closes in on attack, and turns on his laser while dropping the bomb towards the town.

 

Who's laser will the bomb hit?

 

A) The JTAC's laser which is 50% of the time on the target, or 50% of the time on random buildings/stuff that happens to block line of sight

B) The snipers expensive "rangefinder" laser.

C) The CAS Jet's own TGP Laser which is tracking the target.

 

The reason I ask is because, when I play COOP mission in A3, like Invasion or CTI style missions, many players are just doing their thing. When stuff becomes un-coordinated, there could be several laser targets present at once. How does the bomb know which one to hit?

 

In real life, this can be really dangerous, therefore laser encryption is used. The laser of the designator, and the weapon laser seeker, have to be using the same encryption, or else it will not track. This way, there can be multiple sources of laser designation on the battlefield, each with their encryption code. Whoever is performing a weapon delivery, has to verify that his weapon matches the encryption of the designator, or else things can go very bad, very quickly.

 

 

I know that ACE 2.0 used to have this feature, and this is probably very much to beg from Vanilla ArmA 3, but as far as I know, the only "discrimination" between lasers at the moment, is side specific. 

 

Blue factions can lock BLUFOR Lasers,

Grefor factions can lock Grefor lasers,

Opfor factions can lock Opfor lasers.

 

Or maybe allies lock allies, I'm not 100% sure how this works in ArmA 3 vanilla to be honest.

[HaseDesTodes 62]

2 hours ago, Strike_NOR said:

Who's laser will the bomb hit?

 

i did some (more) testing.

Spoiler

VR; 500m altitude; 2 targets in flight path, approximately 20m distance between the targets, CCIP drop on the 2nd target

with this setup, the 1st target should be closer to the bomb when the target is selected, but the bomb always selected the second target

 

the bomb will lock on the laser that is closest to the point of impact (CCIP). this might change, haven't tested (and should be hard to get reproducible results) this with moving targets/lasers, so with the target selection Monkey has described it could change.

 

some more things, as blufor, i (same for my bomb with LOAL) was able to get locks on BLU and IND targets, as long as IND was an ally, so i would say you can lock on all friendly laser targets.

i was not able to see IR strobes on my vehicles sensors and in the targeting camera (marked as x, like the other targets), but my bombs were able to lock themselves on them. so they might cause some confusion for bombs.

 

when i dropped the bombs with the laser targets selected in my vehicle's sensors, the bombs would not auto home in on the target area.

but when i did the same with the vehicle selected it did.

[Strike_NOR 898]

39 minutes ago, HaseDesTodes said:

*snip*

 

Thanks for testing. I would expect that whichever laser the sensor locked first, was the one closest to the sensor field of view center, or boresight.

 

44 minutes ago, HaseDesTodes said:

when i dropped the bombs with the laser targets selected in my vehicle's sensors, the bombs would not auto home in on the target area.

but when i did the same with the vehicle selected it did.

 

I would expect that the bombs do NOT auto-home to the target area, unless there is a laser target there, and the bomb can visually see it within sensor field of view/range. (sounds like locking the target with vehicle sensors, somehow influenced bomb target tracking too, if I understand you correctly).

 

I was hoping that target identification/side is the same as when playing against infantry or hostile vehicles. They are treated as either friendly, or hostile, not as INDEP, OPFOR and BLUFOR. Thanks for confirming.

[HaseDesTodes 62]

3 hours ago, HaseDesTodes said:

 

i did some (more) testing.

  Reveal hidden contents

VR; 500m altitude; 2 targets in flight path, approximately 20m distance between the targets, CCIP drop on the 2nd target

with this setup, the 1st target should be closer to the bomb when the target is selected, but the bomb always selected the second target

when i dropped the bombs with the laser targets selected in my vehicle's sensors, the bombs would not auto home in on the target area.

but when i did the same with the vehicle selected it did.

 

looks like they fixed it already

wanted to make a video, and it now both work the same way

 

 

2 hours ago, Strike_NOR said:

I would expect that the bombs do NOT auto-home to the target area, unless there is a laser target there, and the bomb can visually see it within sensor field of view/range. (sounds like locking the target with vehicle sensors, somehow influenced bomb target tracking too, if I understand you correctly).

 

look what happens when you drop a bomb with the vehicle selected by the sensors only (no laser used)

 

 

the AI even uses smoke, so there is some kind of weapon lock involved

(you might not see notice it at first, i later drop the remaining 3 bombs, and they all hit the target as well)

 

 

edit:

logistical issues day, but for some reason, my client did 2 updates today

[Strike_NOR 898]

14 minutes ago, HaseDesTodes said:

the AI even uses smoke, so there is some kind of weapon lock involved

Unless I'm mistaking. The Wipeout has no radar. It has a "visual" sensor though. Apparrently, it seems that the AI dispenses countermeasures based on two things. A, have I been locked somehow? B, Has someone fired at me. If these criterias both fulfill, then dispense countermeasures.

 

That varsuk must have a clairvoyant commander to be able to sense a passive sensor looking at him!

[oukej 2910]

3 hours ago, Strike_NOR said:

I would expect that the bombs do NOT auto-home to the target area.

 

This will be the case after the next dev-branch update. So - as you suggested - the LGB will initially always fall just like a dumb bomb. Plus there are few other changes and fixes. Regarding munitions and flight profiles you can now consider the current dev-branch build "obsolete". (We can also take the discussion over here>> https://forums.bohemia.net/forums/topic/213601-tanks-missile-flight-profiles-and-weapon-improvements/ )

[Strike_NOR 898]

25 minutes ago, oukej said:

*Snip*

 

Regarding munitions and flight profiles you can now consider the current dev-branch build "obsolete".

 

....... ಠ⌣ಠ

 

28 minutes ago, oukej said:

(We can also take the discussion over here>>

 

Copy that! :)

[HaseDesTodes 62]

47 minutes ago, Strike_NOR said:

Unless I'm mistaking. The Wipeout has no radar. It has a "visual" sensor though.

 

yes, target had to be spotted by visual sensor, i didn't heat it up, so it couldn't be thermal.

what i mean't was, that even though the bombs shouldn't be able to lock-on anything but laser targets, that bomb did.

the ai noticed that it had been locked and pops smoke.

 

@oukej

so i understand this now this way:

regardless of if a target is selected by the vehicle sensors or not, bombs will always drop like a dumb bomb then use LOAL.

would it be possible, to make bombs dropped on a selected LASER target, to have it locked from the beginning?

Spoiler

or a even more sophisticated approach:

laser target selected

bomb dropped as dump bomb, wait 1 sec, then try to acquire laser target

if target is visible, lock

if not proceed as normal (LOAL)

 

[nsOPL 0]

I am using VBS3. Has anyone had any experience with the 'loadOverlay' sqf command? I am unable to get it to work. Ultimately I am looking to create levels of difficulty within the same scenario. I will need to move forwards as well as backwards through the levels. As I am not able to figure out how to commit overlays through scripting, I have not had a chance to see if overlays are a good way to do this. I am new to VBS and am definitely open to any suggestions anyone has on getting this to work.

[Strike_NOR 898]

23 minutes ago, HaseDesTodes said:

would it be possible, to make bombs dropped on a selected LASER target, to have it locked from the beginning?

 

This is not how laser guided bombs work in real life though.

 

Targeting pods can find laser spots from other designators by using a feature called "laser spot search" or laser spot track. In this mode, the tgp will automatically slave to the laser spot and stabilize. 

 

The aircraft usually has an advanced mission computer that can, together with its navigation system, calculate the exact GPS position of the laser spot.

 

Then the pilot "saves" the gps coordinate to the mission system and lines up his aircraft for attack.

 

The aircraft now has the ability to levelbomb (CCRP) or divebomb (CCIP) at the target coordinates. However, the bomb will never know anything about these coordinates. The pilot/aircraft aims the bomb as precisely as possible at the target and drops. The bomb now follows a ballistic trajectory.

 

Once the bomb seeker detects the correct laser, it starts maneuvering towards it. It's usually just to reduce the impact radius from say 25-50m to 2-3 meters.

 

Advanced bombs have a GPS/Laser hybrid. It uses laser as primary guidance, but if the signal is lost, it returns to the initial GPS position which was available at the time of launch

[HaseDesTodes 62]

59 minutes ago, Strike_NOR said:

This is not how laser guided bombs work in real life though.

 

i guess keeping it this way (the way oukej said they will work) is the best way then.

close to realistic, intuitive (bombs always act the same, regardless of target selected or not) and -very important- already/almost finished, if oukej didn't lie about that :) .

 

1 hour ago, Strike_NOR said:

Advanced bombs have a GPS/Laser hybrid. It uses laser as primary guidance, but if the signal is lost, it returns to the initial GPS position which was available at the time of launch

 

do those advanced bombs "glide" like dumb bombs would or do they have increased gliding qualities?

because that would be imo the ideal way bombs in Arma  could act.

 

afaik in stable, you can drop bombs on targets further away, when you have the laser as sensor target, because the bomb will steer towards the target from the beginning. so the bomb has a more flat trajectory.

idk, how realistic this is, but i could imagine this to be possible (even though, without extra wings, bombs should loose some speed this way)

 

now if the bombs dropped at laser targets, headed towards the position, of the target at the moment of the launch and then LOAL, it would be a nice compromise between range extension and realism.

it would be even better to randomize the position the bomb is headed towards a bit so you get 10-20m spread.

heck then it could be even enabled for selected sensor targets, without 100% precision on static targets.

and if i extend this concept, vehicles with radar could even calculate a lead for moving targets

Spoiler

let me dream a bit

[dragon01 902]

I wouldn't be against giving bombs a bit of a spread. We've got that for rockets, and being able to nail a target pretty much exactly from level flight (you can use the TGP for level bombing) with an iron bomb is odd.

[SuicideKing 233]

17 minutes ago, dragon01 said:

I wouldn't be against giving bombs a bit of a spread. We've got that for rockets, and being able to nail a target pretty much exactly from level flight (you can use the TGP for level bombing) with an iron bomb is odd.

It's not that odd for a guided bomb. 

 

[dragon01 902]

For a guided bomb. I was specifically talking iron bombs. A.k.a. unguided, or dumb. We have those in A3 and they should have a bit of spread.

[Strike_NOR 898]

A few improvements would be very useful now, but honestly the train has likely left with Jets DLC over half a year ago.

 

• Map click waypoints/GPS markers for aircraft

These would allow pilots, either on ground or in air, to map out their course and visualize them in the game (HUD or HSI instruments).

 

• TGP Slew to GPS marker.

This would allow players to effectively mark an area on the map, press a key to slew the TGP and watch it immediately on the PIP or by entering the TGP camera view.

That would be a huge improvement for pilots, and make them more effective in target acquisition.

 

• CCRP - Continuous Calculated Release Point

This weapon release mode, has the pilot squeezing the fire-button and holding it until the aircraft computer decides that it is time to drop. This is perfect for level bombing because the pilot doesn't have to see the target with his eyes (i.e dive-bomb). The pilot would simply fly towards the target, align a vertical line in the HUD with the target indicator box (which makes sure you are aimed horizontally), then squeeze and hold the button. Once you reach the optimal drop-point, the weapon will automatically release and you can keep on flying straight. This method (CCRP) is the no 1 method to deliver bombs in asymmetric warfare, because you are always well above anti-air threats and enemies have a hard time visually spotting or hearing you.

 

• Level autopilot

For us busy, multitasking pilots. It would be a godsend to have a level autopilot, that simply holds your altitude and course steady. This way, you can look at the map, look in the TGP view, or simply cruise from A to B without worrying about crashing into terrain or wingmen.