General Discussion (dev branch)

[Iron_Sagaris 3]

I made a quick recording of the new OPFOR voices. Maybe somebody can identify their language. http://www.twitch.tv/raspu86/b/448074789

It's definitely Farsi. At the beginning of the video they're saying (translated rougly), "Get to your vehicles, we have intelligence of several enemies in the city." I don't really feel like translating the rest but it's definitely Farsi. Accents are a little funny but overall they did a very good job.

[Shagulon 1]

I hope they fix the SLI problem soon... I only have 1 GTX690 yet some PIP monitors flicker still .

I don't understand, why would any SLI issue affect you if you have only 1 gfx card?

[Derbysieger 11]

The GTX 690 is a dual GPU card.

[Simas 12]

A bug with lowered handguns in dev build:

1. Switch to a handgun

2. Lower the handgun

3. Single mouse right click (for iron sights)

4. Walk forward

You will see your vest on the screen in first person view.

[antoineflemming 14]

It's definitely Farsi. At the beginning of the video they're saying (translated rougly), "Get to your vehicles, we have intelligence of several enemies in the city." I don't really feel like translating the rest but it's definitely Farsi. Accents are a little funny but overall they did a very good job.

I don't understand why they couldn't just call it what it is - Farsi - instead of calling it "CSAT language". But, oh well.

[doln 10]

The GTX 690 is a dual GPU card.

That's irrelevant to SLI though.

[Tyl3r99 41]

thats what i thought.

its still a single card unit so shouldnt really be SLI unless i added a whole other GPU.

also with SLI fixed performance for players WITH SLI would be amazing.. graphics wise.

[xendance 3]

thats what i thought.

its still a single card unit so shouldnt really be SLI unless i added a whole other GPU.

also with SLI fixed performance for players WITH SLI would be amazing.. graphics wise.

Eh? It is an SLI card. It's basically two 680 GTX cores put on the same PCB. The SLI bridge is on the PCB.

[doln 10]

Thats still irrelevant to SLI. SLI is specifically 2 seperate PCB's in differing slots connected by an SLI cable. On a dual core single PCB card, the PCB takes care of all the funny business.

[instagoat 133]

Looks like they finally got native farsi speakers? They sound much better than in Arrowhead, where they all farsi'd with a Czech accent. Super nice, BI!

[Smurf 12]

Oh yeah, voices. Entered the game with intend to test those and lost myself on UAVs, trying to use them without success (well, they fly but no much more than that ATM).

Going back to game.

[daze23 1]

Thats still irrelevant to SLI. SLI is specifically 2 seperate PCB's in differing slots connected by an SLI cable. On a dual core single PCB card, the PCB takes care of all the funny business.

never the less, the 690 is affected by the same issues that affect SLI setups (source: I frequent gaming forums)

[maturin 12]

Edit: Has anyone else seen RPGs fail to damage Hunters and HEMTT trucks? Getting inconsistent results.

Edited August 19, 2013 by maturin

[kuIoodporny 45]

While testing the new effects I noticed that it's really hard to destroy the panther with armor piercing rounds, but the panther easily disables the kamysh with just a few grenades. Is it supposed to be like that?

Kamysh is not better protected than AMV. In theory it should resist 30mm sabots from front arc mostly thanks to slopes, and 14.5mm from sides. It may seem bad, but the vehicle is very agile and skilled crew can utilize it very splendidly.

About Panther protection against 30mm, it's better to damage its RC weapon station and then try engage the vehicle where it is vulnerable. A hint - the Panther is well protected from all sides but rear. You'll still need dozens of rounds to completely destroy it, while you could use them against other threats - MRAPs, AMVs, or even helicopters.

[maturin 12]

I couldn't damage the Panther from the rear with almost a whole clip of Marshall 40mm rounds.

Anyways, I really wish you guys would adapt an RHA-based system rather than fudging all the damage.

If a vehicle is protected against 30mm rounds, that's like 200mm RHA vs HEAT, maximum.

Russia has RPGs right now that penetrate 500-800mm RHA no problem. Bottom line, the RPG and PCML should be penetrating the sides and rear of every IFV, every time. Maybe they don't do much damage after the fact, but there should still be results. Damaged engine, injured crew, dead passengers, etc.

[mbbird 11]

I couldn't damage the Panther from the rear with almost a whole clip of Marshall 40mm rounds.

Anyways, I really wish you guys would adapt an RHA-based system rather than fudging all the damage.

If a vehicle is protected against 30mm rounds, that's like 200mm RHA vs HEAT, maximum.

Russia has RPGs right now that penetrate 500-800mm RHA no problem. Bottom line, the RPG and PCML should be penetrating the sides and rear of every IFV, every time. Maybe they don't do much damage after the fact, but there should still be results. Damaged engine, injured crew, dead passengers, etc.

No, fudging of damage is not a bad idea. Not at all. Abstractions of combat abilities are far more accurate than than strict reliance on already weird numbers. Games that rely exclusively on RHA equivalent values come out with very strange results. WinSPMBT and Wargame:EE/ALB are good examples of this.

And please. The Panther is the Merkava chassis. It has far better than 30mm cannon round protection. If anything, I'd like to see the abstraction taken further. The 40mm rounds should slowly wear away anything external and slowly pound out armor and interior structures. Not enough to get a decisive kill in nearly the time it takes for the Panther to fire back, but capable of damaging or picking off an already damaged one.

However I haven't tested the RPGs against the Panther, so sorry if I'm not seeing the whole picture. But please, RHA-based system reliance rarely goes well.

[maturin 12]

Oh, I misread the Panther as having (typical AFV) 30mm protection. The imaginary vehicles make it really confusing.

Anyways, RHA is the best way to go, as ACE proves. The only reason it doesn't work so well in that mod is that they haven't made it randomized enough, probably because they are limited to scripted solutions. Your average tank already has a huge range of armor thicknesses and qualities across its frontal arc, so anything can happen in gameplay, as long as you're not using blatantly the wrong weapons.

Back on topic, it still seems to me a weird choice to pit a super-heavy APC with anti-personnel armament against a fragile APC with AT missiles, so that neither can kill each other with their main armament...

But I guess the ability to destroy the turret is a rather elegant solution. Now we have firepower kills, but we need them for turreted vehicles as well, and we need universal possibilities for mobility kills through tracking and engine damage. The Kamysh should be able to track the Panther, for example. Furthermore, 40mm HE rounds should blow apart the tires of the wheeled APCs, and the Sabot rounds should penetrate to kill crew, which I can't get them to do.

And why do Sabot hits to the engine block of an Ifrit pop the tires? Why can't Ifrit turrets be damaged the same way as the heavier Panther turret? How can 12.7mm rounds eventually blow up an Ifrit if they never actually penetrate? There's just no consistency and haphazard detail.

Edit: However, doesn't the Merkava have really poor rear armor? I have read about older Merkava's being penetrated by 12.7mm from weak spots in the sides and rear. I don't see any crew compartment door withstanding 40mm Sabot, I just don't. The game should reward you for getting a rear shot anyway, realism aside.

Edited August 19, 2013 by maturin

[heruon 1]

Kamysh is not better protected than AMV. In theory it should resist 30mm sabots from front arc mostly thanks to slopes, and 14.5mm from sides. It may seem bad, but the vehicle is very agile and skilled crew can utilize it very splendidly.

About Panther protection against 30mm, it's better to damage its RC weapon station and then try engage the vehicle where it is vulnerable. A hint - the Panther is well protected from all sides but rear. You'll still need dozens of rounds to completely destroy it, while you could use them against other threats - MRAPs, AMVs, or even helicopters.

Yes I quickly learned that it's not a good idea to engage the panther while standing still and that kind of makes it hard to hit the turret. Which I think is just great and a good dynamic. Was just wondering if the ineffectiveness of 30mm sabot was intended, and after reading a bit about the Namer I realized it probably was. :) But still, I've been having some trouble penetrating the armor from the rear.. guess I'll have to try harder :)

Edited August 19, 2013 by Heruon

[purepassion 22]

Shouldn't the quadrocopter's turning speed be

?! At the moment it is turning unnaturally slow.

[kuIoodporny 45]

Maturin, ACE armor penetration system estimates the angle of attack based on position of attacker and adds some random values. Engine's own penetration works differently, and while it has flaws, it's not worse than ACE one. An ideal solution would require both great amount of programming/scripting work and properly setup content to go along.

For now, the issues of Arma armor consist of:

- getting or guessing RL data and implementing it,

- setting up crew poses. Yes, you can already kill crews with penetrating shots,

- how many stones can tank withstand before it explodes.

[themaster303 22]

Shouldn't the quadrocopter's turning speed be

?! At the moment it is turning unnaturally slow.

yeah absolutly, also the humming bird turns to slow. way to slow.

that video is uberhammer cool ;)

[Smurf 12]

So.... are you a BI employee, freelancer or what?

Anyway about the armor, nice to see AP rounds going throught the Marid's cargo space (why so much smoke?) without any major vehicle malfunction while shooting the crew area = disable it, followed by silly explosion.

And shooting in the turret = it just can aim up or down but still can spin, fire and there is no visual indication of destruction (except for it poiting down). Can be enhanced somehow?

[themaster303 22]

oh and is the submarine control nose up / nose down not working ?

anyone notice that, or is it only on my system?

[maturin 12]

Maturin, ACE armor penetration system estimates the angle of attack based on position of attacker and adds some random values.

That is false. It compares penetrating ability of the attacker to the piece of armor struck and uses the result to establish probability of penetration, after taking into account angle of attack, velocity of impact, HEAT vs KE, ERA vs Tandem charge. And then a penetrating shot can damage tracks, engine, turret/gun and crew, either with the path of the projectile itself or randomized spall. Non-penetrating shots can still injure the crew with shock of impact. Every kind of vehicle can suffer the full range of component damage, and all, some or non of the crew may be injured or killed, there can be slow fires, catastrophic detonations and incredible ammo cookoffs.

Random values, my ass.

Engine's own penetration works differently, and while it has flaws, it's not worse than ACE one. An ideal solution would require both great amount of programming/scripting work and properly setup content to go along.

ACE's armor system has flaws. BI's just doesn't work for anything except 5.56 going through a wooden fence. It wasn't ever meant to deal with armor penetration. It's a caliber-based system in a world with sabot rounds in it, ffs. They don't set up their assets to even take advantage of the engine's penetration capabilities half the time. Remember the completely impermeable huts from ArmA 2? Mudbrick walls withstanding 30mm AP from OA? Missing crew damage proxies in pretty much every game released? The ideal solution is the ACE system implemented by BI at the engine level.

- getting or guessing RL data and implementing it,

Except no one can figure out how to implement any of the data because we have a system where penetration is different than damage. We have non-penetrating rounds chipping away at hitpoints until there is an explosion.

setting up crew poses. Yes, you can already kill crews with penetrating shots,

If by some unprecedented miracle every vehicle actually gets the proxies this time. But with so few vehicles, I guess it's a possibility.

- how many stones can tank withstand before it explodes.

And the persistence of the hitpoint system is still screwing up vehicle gameplay more than anything else. Bullets don't explode cars.

Edited August 19, 2013 by maturin

[spamurai 3]

I just wish ArmA would create in-game systems that are less rigid then they are so that more custom content variety was possible. In regards to Vehicles, it would be nice if ArmA was more modular so a content creator could decide ot modify the vehicle to suit a desired purpose. Like have a modular armor system where a creator could make a basic vehicle and then attach modules to the model to simulate various types of protection to the "core" HP of the vehicle. So... if you wanted something more like WW2 with steel plates, you could plug that module onto the tank. Or, maybe something more modern like Composite or Reactive Protection.... or go all out futuristic and even have energy shields if you wanted too... it's up to the content creator, ArmA just has to be flexible enough to allow customization. And because it's modular, a content creator could make their own protection system... like using rainbows and candy coating to protect the vehicle if that's what someone wanted. I don't know how that would work, but that would be the beauty of it, if someone thought it up and wanted it, they could build it. Instead we have a one-size must fit all approach.

That's what I would like. And that's what I think would ultimately work best with ArmA instead of trying to work within the rigid constraints that we have now for stuff like this.

Vehicle's in ArmA... are kinda "meh". They look awesome, they have lots of cool parts and visible potential but they lack a certain gravitas. In the way the AI drives the vehicles, in the way they sound and the way they feel when you use them and certainly when you destroy them.

It's like Sound Mods and Special Effects.... kinda lack luster out of the box in ArmA 1, but the sound and particle systems were accessible and so we got great things like Chammy's Sound Mod and MadMatt's ArmA Effects for ArmA 1. We have yet to see a "vehicle" mod for ArmA in the same way we see Sound or Particle mods.

It would be nice if we'd stop thinking in rigid terms and only considering the design of stuff in regards to how it will work for the single player game when we all know ArmA is equally about customization and creating sandbox content too.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Spamurai