Suppression Effect missing in ARMA3

[kamaradski 10]

Thanks DMarkwick, you have made my point exactly !

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

you have a Suppression Effect in the game you hear the bullets ! go cover or die.

Bingo, just like in real life.

/thread done

[dmarkwick 261]

you have a Suppression Effect in the game you hear the near bullets ! go cover or die maby. not more you have in real. breat and all the other effects is differnd from human to human.

But so is running speed, strength, weapon stability etc, one of the consequences of playing the game is that you have standardised performances.

is real, in the game and more than enough ! is your opinion, cover or die, when you hear the bullets over you.

If you wish for a game where the fastest & most accurate mouse movers have the advantage, then I suggest making suppression an optional component in the mission design :) myself, I would wish for more tactical gameplay.

[Maxzy 12]

Does suppression exists in real life? - Yes it is.

Do we need it to be imlemented somehow in game? - Yes we do.

How exactly it is supposed to be implemented? - Imho, shaking hands and slight bluriness is optimal.

[dmarkwick 261]

Does suppression exists in real life? - Yes it is.

Do we need it to be imlemented somehow in game? - Yes we do.

How exactly it is supposed to be implemented? - Imho, shaking hands and slight bluriness is optimal.

Indeed. But I personally run A3 with no post-process effects, so blurriness wouldn't affect me.

[Maxzy 12]

Indeed. But I personally run A3 with no post-process effects, so blurriness wouldn't affect me.

Same here. But I guess some workaround could be done. Something like forced postprocessing in some cases. Or rather just some kind of video filter applied in case of supression.

[whisper 0]

I'm not a total realism freak (and the more time passes, the older I get, and the less geared toward realism I end up), and these kinds of effects simply stop my control on my character and ... well prevent people from playing (if I can't aim in a FPS, basically, I can't play the damn FPS).

I'm forcing the trait here, just want to show the point.

It being optional is imho the way to go if it must be implemented. Via some difficulty setting that can be enforced by server settings.

And imho again, the simple fear of the bullet in ArmA is important enough (contrary to other FPS) to make it the only needed "suppression effect" :)

[dmarkwick 261]

Same here. But I guess some workaround could be done. Something like forced postprocessing in some cases. Or rather just some kind of video filter applied in case of supression.

It's a difficult balance. You want to apply an ingame reason to keep hidden but at the same time you don't want to dissociate the people who cannot distinguish an effect from its purpose.

As an idea, I might try something like a "blink" followed by a small twitch. So you get a very very short black screen and your aim (if you are aiming) is affected. The blink indicates you're being harassed by close landing/passing rounds, and the aim twitch is the physical effect of the suppression. Only very close rounds should do this though, so people off to one side and possibly unseen could still be effective. It's a balancing act, maybe this method would work, maybe not.

---------- Post added at 10:02 ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 ----------

I'm not a total realism freak (and the more time passes, the older I get, and the less geared toward realism I end up), and these kinds of effects simply stop my control on my character and ... well prevent people from playing (if I can't aim in a FPS, basically, I can't play the damn FPS).

I'm forcing the trait here, just want to show the point.

It being optional is imho the way to go if it must be implemented. Via some difficulty setting that can be enforced by server settings.

And imho again, the simple fear of the bullet in ArmA is important enough (contrary to other FPS) to make it the only needed "suppression effect" :)

I understand the viewpoint :) as an older gamer myself I agree, I tend toward gameplay and less toward anal realism. Absolutely these effects should be optional. I just don't want to be constantly owned by younger more mouse-effective gamers :)

[Maxzy 12]

something like a "blink" followed by a small twitch

Hey, good idea!

[3instein 10]

I'm not sure if it is the same as getting suppressed as I have never been shot at in real life, but I have certainly had a few bad ear infections and suffer from tinnitus now and again and it is not pretty,

Anyway, I know it's only 11.30am and I've been drinking but hey life's a bitch. ;)

What about that kinda flash, heavy ringing sound you get when (I presume) you get a loud noise by your ear, you know lose sound for a second or two and your awareness is all to fXXk, maybe when you get naded or suppressed?

I maybe be saying it wrong but you see it in the movies so it must be real right?

I hope you get what I mean but the Vodka has got me,

Mick. :)

[jgbtl292 0]

you have earplugs for this ;)

[liquidpinky 11]

I understand the viewpoint :) as an older gamer myself I agree, I tend toward gameplay and less toward anal realism.

Yet a minute ago you were while criticisng my opinion on the subject. You constantly change your track as long as it suits your needs.

So, do you want a sim or not is still my question?

Absolutely these effects should be optional.

Indeed, as do I. I would be happy if we both get our way through the use of options.

I just don't want to be constantly owned by younger more mouse-effective gamers :)

And here we get to the crux of the whole matter.

I am also an older gamer, but I have learned to accept that I may not always be the best man on the feild at any given time and can live with being put down by someone sharper. It is part of natural selection.

To see how stupid adding effects are, why not phone up Ployphony Digital and ask them to make your vision go all blurry and have less control over the car every time it slides out in Gran Tourismo.

You are in the exact same mental and physical state when this happens as when you are being shot at, so lets have it in all games shall we?

[-Coulum- 35]

you have a Suppression Effect in the game you hear the bullets ! go cover or die.

Bingo, just like in real life.

But this is not how it works in game or in reality. Not taking cover often does not result in death. Yet even when taking inaccurate fire, that is most likely not lethal, soldiers in reality still take full cover - this is because nobody wants to put thee lives at risk, no matter how small a risk that might be.

take a look at this vid, from 1:00 to 2:00.

The player is under heavy fire, with bullets snapping by and impacting at a fairly regular and rapid rate. What does the player do? He peeps out and returns accurate fire. Is this a bad decision by the player? No, it is a good one. The fire obviously wasn't that accurate and so the player calculated that the damage he would inflict on the enemy was worth the risk of peeping out. Tactically it is a sound decision. But would your average grunt do this in reality? Hell no. hearing bullets impacting near you and seeing them fly over your head would be more than enough to dissuade you from exposing yourself and shooting back - because you never know where the next bullet might land, and for most, it is not worth risking your life to find out.

Basically, it is possible to suppress someone in game, but it is not nearly as easy or effective as in reality. Thus the need for more "gamey" effects.

And for those saying suppression will turn arma into Bf3 I repear...

I don't get it. VBS2 also has suppression effects too... is it also BF3 all over again? Did VBS include this just to turn a military simulator into an arcade shooter?

[dmarkwick 261]

Yet a minute ago you were while criticisng my opinion on the subject. You constantly change your track as long as it suits your needs.

I said I was generally less interested in anal simulation, but in favour of better gameplay. As far as I can tell, suppression effects give me better gameplay. Does it look "real" in the strictest sense of the word? No, but it does what it is intended to do, which is to give me a real ingame reason to keep hidden. In that sense it is a better simulation for it.

So, do you want a sim or not is still my question?

Indeed, as do I. I would be happy if we both get our way through the use of options.

And here we get to the crux of the whole matter.

I am also an older gamer, but I have learned to accept that I may not always be the best man on the feild at any given time and can live with being put down by someone sharper. It is part of natural selection.

To see how stupid adding effects are, why not phone up Ployphony Digital and ask them to make your vision go all blurry and have less control over the car every time it slides out in Gran Tourismo.

You are in the exact same mental and physical state when this happens as when you are being shot at, so lets have it in all games shall we?

And so the crux of the matter is revealed as what is the purpose of suppression effects... which is not relevant at all in your example. I've described the purpose (of suppression effects) over & over but that reply revealed that you're stuck on simulation being direct exact replication, whereas I see simulation as being an appropriate analog. For the most part the appropriate analog is a replication, but occasionally an appropriate analog is needed instead. Your racing game does not require the appropriate analog.

Edited April 3, 2013 by DMarkwick

[scrim 1]

Coulumn: So our "average grunt" would rather sit there behind the rock, waiting for the enemy to get so close they could stab him with a bayonet, or knock him uncocious and slit his throat live on al Jazeera? Nah, he'd be returning fire and tossing grenades like there was no tomorrow, because if he didn't there really would be no tomorrow for him.

[dmarkwick 261]

Returning fire whilst under fire is a valid tactic, just don't expect to be a sharpshooter when doing it :)

[Smurf 12]

Returning fire whilst under fire is a valid tactic, just don't expect to be a sharpshooter when doing it :)

This.

All previous titles had the effect it never was optional, so what?

[whisper 0]

Returning fire whilst under fire is a valid tactic, just don't expect to be a sharpshooter when doing it :)

Well, you're going to be a sharpshooter when returning fire if you take your time to do so. In turns, that means you are an easy target for the guy shooting at you, for a long period (acquisition delay, aim, etc...). In a ArmA-esque game, that means that you are dead (unless the guy shooting is REALLY bad. Adding an artificial suppression leads, in terms of pure FPS, to putting a crutch and remove a key component of a FPS : aiming. Just spam in the general direction, it'll be enough. On top of it, it leads to a far more static gameplay because the requirements for pinning down your foe are less strict : you have a super tool to auto-make his screen blurry, preventing him from playing ). This is just a natural consequence, and will force you to NOT try being a sharpshooter when being shot at.

Unless death has no penalty. Which is THE real reason behind the artificial suppression effect in other games more than anything else. They rely on an artificial addition to simulate fear of death because otherwise, there is no fear of death.

In ArmA games, respawn is all dependant on the mission design. There's undoubtfully fear of death in a no respawn coop or TvT mission (unless they are 3 minutes long). You'll also find it when you have to respawn far away and take hours to go back to battle.

I've no problem seeing misson makers wanting to just have a fun non realistic mission where fear of death is not really an issue and leading toward some large scale holywood scale.

It doesn't mean the full realism isn't possible, so there should be no reason to force something onto players.

The respawn realism is up to server/mission. Why suppression effect (which is a side effect of respawn realism) should be different?

[dmarkwick 261]

Well, you're going to be a sharpshooter when returning fire if you take your time to do so. In turns, that means you are an easy target for the guy shooting at you, for a long period (acquisition delay, aim, etc...). In a ArmA-esque game, that means that you are dead (unless the guy shooting is REALLY bad. Adding an artificial suppression leads, in terms of pure FPS, to putting a crutch and remove a key component of a FPS : aiming. Just spam in the general direction, it'll be enough. On top of it, it leads to a far more static gameplay because the requirements for pinning down your foe are less strict : you have a super tool to auto-make his screen blurry, preventing him from playing ). This is just a natural consequence, and will force you to NOT try being a sharpshooter when being shot at.

Well the guy shooting doesn't have to be really bad - he only has to be a machinegunner :) which has a deliberate built-in dispersion.

Unless death has no penalty. Which is THE real reason behind the artificial suppression effect in other games more than anything else. They rely on an artificial addition to simulate fear of death because otherwise, there is no fear of death.

In ArmA games, respawn is all dependant on the mission design. There's undoubtfully fear of death in a no respawn coop or TvT mission (unless they are 3 minutes long). You'll also find it when you have to respawn far away and take hours to go back to battle.

I've no problem seeing misson makers wanting to just have a fun non realistic mission where fear of death is not really an issue and leading toward some large scale holywood scale.

No-respawn makes for a good suppression-enhancer :) but we're not talking about making the suppressed player a totally useless crybaby under suppression - just less than optimally effective.

It doesn't mean the full realism isn't possible, so there should be no reason to force something onto players.

Well, we already do by affecting the player upon injury, tiredness, stance etc.

The respawn realism is up to server/mission. Why suppression effect (which is a side effect of respawn realism) should be different?

Lots of things are up to server setups, suppression can be one of them.

[metalcraze 290]

you have a Suppression Effect in the game you hear the near bullets ! go cover or die maby.

Did you play much ArmA? People will hear bullets flying all around them, they will just calmly place an aimpoint over the enemy and press fire. Enemy's dead. Right now in ArmA games, especially PvP if you are not shooting to kill but to suppress you may as well consider yourself dead.

not more you have in real. breat and all the other effects is differnd from human to human.

So is fatigue, sprinting speed, the ability to carry more weight, height, body weight - so if a game can approximate the rest why can't it approximate 'stress'?

[froggyluv 2136]

take a look at this vid, from 1:00 to 2:00.

The blase' attitude of being shot at in this segment perfectly epitomizes the point of needed effects to alter the 'attitude' of said intended victim I think. Generally if Im being suppressed (with PP effect), my intention is to get down or to a safe place to recover and then distract ie..grenade, and start returning the favor ie..suppress them back.

Edited April 3, 2013 by froggyluv

[liquidpinky 11]

So is fatigue, sprinting speed, the ability to carry more weight, height, body weight - so if a game can approximate the rest why can't it approximate 'stress'?

Difference is that Fatigue is real for everyone and is portrayed quite well at the moment. I get annoyed when my Avatar is tired out, but at the same time I understand it and will adjust my pace to suit.

Going blurry like a drunk and shaking like a puppy while under duress I don't get.

Then we have posters crying out about realism while wanting an unreal condition effect added in, they cannot even comprehend the irony of their own requests.

But. and it is a big but here. The real problem stems from playing with thick adversaries, maybe try playing against others who actually do know and care that they are about to be killed when the rounds start landing near.

Or crank up the AI difficulty so you learn to fear incoming rounds, fear is after all mostly learned through experience.

I play Arma to relax and get away from idiots telling me what to do all day and appreciate the break while trying to have fun and if I choose to be killed by being a pigheaded arrogant Ramboing dick, then let it be so.

I understand full-well the actual use of suppression, I just don't care much for some of the ideas on implementing it.

It is all about choice, make it an option and we can all go our separate happy ways and probably never cross paths on a server as either wouldn't suit our ideals of fun.

Another point I will make though, all those who favour of no suppression effects will be 100% happy if it is optional and can have it switched off.

Those of you who do favour suppression are still in for a rough ride as it sure as hell won't be implemented to everyone's taste.

[dmarkwick 261]

Then we have posters crying out about realism while wanting an unreal condition effect added in, they cannot even comprehend the irony of their own requests.

Then its well matched by your incomprehension of the reason for that. Which has been explained several times now.

But. and it is a big but here. The real problem stems from playing with thick adversaries, maybe try playing against others who actually do know and care that they are about to be killed

Right. It's a problem of everyone else being "thick".

[maturin 12]

Then we have posters crying out about realism while wanting an unreal condition effect added in, they cannot even comprehend the irony of their own requests.

This game is full of shortcuts and abstractions in order to arrive at realistic outcomes when the digital simulation is impossible.

The ends justify the means.

[Wolfstriked 11]

I love PR:BF2 suppression effect and find it very immersive and that it forces you to return fire with your own suppression.Not a fan of causing more sway though as it just makes for a clunky feel to game.Just the blurred screen is suffice,since you can't differentiate small objects well you can't return back accurate fire.