Taking the scroll menu to the chopping block

[ShadowPryde 10]

It might even be cool if interact-able things in the environment are highlighted a slight color when looked at, and a "interact" cursor appears, where you need only click the middle mouse button once to interact with it.

That's also a great Idea. Would really make things more smoother.

[nodunit 397]

As long as it is a difficulty option, sure. You just know people are going to complain about the outline not being realistic.

[M. BlackBeard 26]

A 17 button mouse and a Nostromo solved that problem for me.

Can't play Arma in a game pad, can't play Arma in a keyboard, solution? Nice peripherals!

If the argument is "non intuitiveness", maybe. I still prefer it to be a clunky game than just another spawn and die franchise.

It becomes a non argument when applied to a "I was given a gun,but don't know how to shoot it" matter.

Takes a while to get used to. After a while you'll even start loving it...

[BurningMustache 1]

I still prefer it to be a clunky game than just another spawn and die franchise.

See, this is something I will never understand.

I don't think the majority of the people here clamoring for abandoning the clunky list in favor of a new, more streamlined system want this because of an urge to "dumb down" the game or to bring it more in line with more casual, arcade-y games.

There is absolutely no connection between clunky controls and deep, complex or realistic gameplay. This is entirely a user interface issue, and I really don't get why people think that modernizing, improving or streamlining the user interface would make the game turn into "just another spawn and die franchise" :confused:

Back in the day of mainstream FPS games like Duke Nukem 3D, people would use the cursor keys to walk / turn around, and in Duke 3D specifically, use the PgUp, PgDn keys to aim upwards and downwards. Later, Quake introduced mouselook and the default controls for FPS games were to use your cursor keys for walking and the mouse for looking around. Since Half-Life, WASD + mouselook has become the standard, and for good reason (WASD has significant advantages over using the cursor keys for most people).

User interface and control schemes have evolved and improved over time, and there is absolutely no argument to be made that, say, Duke 3D is less of a "spawn and die franchise" than Half-Life, or even ARMA, just because it uses a much more clunky control scheme.

ARMA 3's mousewheel list system is pretty much the same that even OFP used back in the day and UI design has come a long way since. I would argue there's no reason not to make advantage of new, more streamlined concepts if they end up working more efficiently just out of a stubborn* sense of "this is how it's always been done in these games".

* No offence intended.

[Jex 1]

I hate the scroll menu as well but there are keys you can use too (as already covered). I'd prefer things like "raise flaps and gears" to be KB only - I don't need them in the scroll menu it's ridiculous and just clogs things up.

I never have an issue getting in a car, it always defaults to getting into the seat I'm stood by but the scroll menu is hideous and it's easy to scroll passed something when you need to be quick.

Perhaps if they took things out of the scroll menu that aren't needed and make us use the keyboard then with less crap in there it would be easier to use.

[RuecanOnRails 10]

Anytime I see someone using "No offence intended" They obviously mean offense, if they truly didn't they wouldn't have noticed anything offensive while typing. ;)

Remember, you can bind ANYTHING to your keyboard go through the control options and check it out, the custom controls. They allow you to do just about everything. if you want to set up keys for everything go for it. If you want a case sensitive key, it's already in the game. Try your space bar it works great. Run up beside a vehicle and look at it, press SPACE magically you jump in. Run up to a door press SPACE, it opens or closes. No need to go through the menus.

Additionally the scroll menu adds to the Meta gameplay where a learning curve is added and skill of using the scroll menu increases over time.

Every option I've read in this thread has not had anything I'd consider ground breaking and more intuitive than the scroll menu. Rather they simply delegate the act of scrolling to mouse movement and clicks or other peripheral input to select an option. Which in itself breaks the ability to keep moving while accessing options.

The post about making objects blink, change colour or have an icon above them made me throw up a little in my mouth. The only reason an object should glow is if it's irradiated -no offence intended ;). Flashing waypoints, glowing objects, icons are some of the worst things to happen to video games over the years in my opinion. To me it's like a slap in the face by the game assuming we are too stupid to figure out things on our own so it must take our hand and walk us through everything step by step. The defense about making the game more accessible to everyone is a poor. If you want to play a game invest time into the learning curve it presents you with. Nothing should be handed to you on silver platter with glowing objects and flashing items... Unless it's a cheesy arcade shooter, not a military sim.

[BurningMustache 1]

Additionally the scroll menu adds to the Meta gameplay where a learning curve is added and skill of using the scroll menu increases over time.

Well, I adhere to the philosophy where I would absolutely not consider the learning and mastering of user interface mechanics to be a fundamental skill that should be required to master a videogame.

For me, user interfaces should be something that help the player and make playing the game easier and smoother. It absolutely shouldn't be another obstacle the player has to battle against.

As such, anything that streamlines this process and cuts down the clutter is welcome.

Feel free to disagree.

EDIT: Furthermore, I don't think anybody is arguing to take away any existing mechanics from the game in order to dumb it down or anything, it's about making the existing mechanics more easily and conveniently accessible. It's not about removing any of the abilities the list menu gives you, it's about accessing them in a quicker and more streamlined manner. If you're against that and you believe that adding additional, needlees barriers between deciding to do an action in the game and actually executing it is a valuable skill that should require mastering, I don't know what to tell you.

Along the same lines one could argue that just moving around as infantry should require QWOP-style controls (I would post a link but I can't as I only just registered here, just search for "QWOP" on YouTube) because it's "more realistic" that you would require to move each of your limbs individually.

Edited March 15, 2013 by BurningMustache

[Gorbachev 1]

Anytime I see someone using "No offence intended" They obviously mean offense, if they truly didn't they wouldn't have noticed anything offensive while typing. ;)

Remember, you can bind ANYTHING to your keyboard go through the control options and check it out, the custom controls. They allow you to do just about everything. if you want to set up keys for everything go for it. If you want a case sensitive key, it's already in the game. Try your space bar it works great. Run up beside a vehicle and look at it, press SPACE magically you jump in. Run up to a door press SPACE, it opens or closes. No need to go through the menus.

Additionally the scroll menu adds to the Meta gameplay where a learning curve is added and skill of using the scroll menu increases over time.

Every option I've read in this thread has not had anything I'd consider ground breaking and more intuitive than the scroll menu. Rather they simply delegate the act of scrolling to mouse movement and clicks or other peripheral input to select an option. Which in itself breaks the ability to keep moving while accessing options.

The post about making objects blink, change colour or have an icon above them made me throw up a little in my mouth. The only reason an object should glow is if it's irradiated -no offence intended ;). Flashing waypoints, glowing objects, icons are some of the worst things to happen to video games over the years in my opinion. To me it's like a slap in the face by the game assuming we are too stupid to figure out things on our own so it must take our hand and walk us through everything step by step. The defense about making the game more accessible to everyone is a poor. If you want to play a game invest time into the learning curve it presents you with. Nothing should be handed to you on silver platter with glowing objects and flashing items... Unless it's a cheesy arcade shooter, not a military sim.

The default action is not always the one you want though..

And holy hell, all these like minded people! WOOHOO. :yay:

[bad benson 1733]

totally agree. a simple UI that appears when you hold the interaction key. just tapping it will take the default and holding it will make it possible to drag the mouse over the action you want. current ofp style system is just not good to use.

keep one thing in mind though! changing the menu to a more graphical one will make it much more difficult for mission makers to add a simple custom action to it using the addaction command. so the design should be somewhat modular. maybe have a radial one for the core game functions like gear, get in and get out and still keep something like we have now to keep it customizable without having to do UI design.

so i'd say just replace the instant action system that is in place now with a separate fast action UI for the space bar and keep the list for the mouse wheel scroll.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Additionally the scroll menu adds to the Meta gameplay where a learning curve is added and skill of using the scroll menu increases over time.

Now this is bullshit.

Almost 8 years. EIGHT YEARS and I can't get used to it, prompting either fuck-ups or taking me a lot more time to do the simplest of things (OPEN THE God DAMN DOOR!), than otherwise would have with an efficient system.

[Gorbachev 1]

I hope the devs at least pilfered through this thread. It seems like a nearly perfect 50/50 split between those who want change and do not want change or I'd start a feedback post.

[chortles 263]

A 17 button mouse and a Nostromo solved that problem for me.

Any solution that involves "buy more stuff" is the wrong answer.

Takes a while to get used to. After a while you'll even start loving it...

It's called Stockholm syndrome.

[Von_Emmy 1]

Hello everybody

Because we all wanna be happy...

My recommendation; a solution that probably suits everyone, by integrating all of the following:

- Press and hold "MMW" or desired "Interaction Key", hover over desired command/action and release it to choose. ("Commo Rose" Style like BF2, Crysis and so on).

- Scroll "MMW" to desired command/action and press "MMW" or desired "Interaction Key" (currently set to "Spacebar" as default) to choose it. (Like it is now)

- Press "MMW" or desired "Interaction Key" (currently set to "Spacebar" as default) to choose default interaction like open door, get in car and so on. (like it is now)

- Make it toggleable in the "Key Settings", whether or not you want the "Commo Rose" and/or the "Scroll Menu", so that both or either one of them could be used.

I think it should be achievable, although i'm not in to it, that the "Commo Rose" could be made in a way it would adjust its layout on the same amount of chooseable options, just like the "Scroll Menu" would offer.

So that all modders only have to add there specific command/action to the "Scroll Menu", just somehow like it is now.

Like i guess, this way noone could complain anymore and everyone should be happy :D

What do you think? and what does BI think about it?

in advance

Much love and light

Von_Emmy

Edited March 16, 2013 by Von_Emmy

[Tuliq 2]

I'm up for progress in this department. The scroll menu works, but there is clearly room for improvement.

[jacksoldier 1]

I like the scroll wheel. What's the alternative? Having to remember buttons for everything?

[Mansen 10]

Have Bohemia ever looked into a Radial menu design? With how responsive and quick a menu has to be in ARMA, it seems like a much more natural solution than a scrolling text menu.

http://vimeo.com/52776130

[Anachoretes 10]

Existing menu have benefits in unobtrusiveness.

[aoshi 1]

I'm up for progress in this department. The scroll menu works, but there is clearly room for improvement.

Yes whatever bohemia wants, if don't have the resource to redone this, ok, if redone very good

[zeep 3]

Playing Arma games since the OFP days. I would much like to see the scroll menu go.

I go with binds for most actions.

[Smurf 12]

At first I also thought that removing it would be good, but it seems fine to do most actions now as it was improved. The problem is all the options that shouldn't be there in the first place; from changing mags to operations with satchels and that.

[3instein 10]

Have Bohemia ever looked into a Radial menu design? With how responsive and quick a menu has to be in ARMA, it seems like a much more natural solution than a scrolling text menu.

http://vimeo.com/52776130

I think if done right,this could be a good solution.I have used them in games before and you can navigate through them at speed,once you get accustomed to the way it goes I think this would feel a lot more intuitive.

Mick. :)

[drgreenthumb 2]

Been playing since about 2002, never liked it. Never got quite used to it even though I'm quick and precise with it. It's still damn clunky. I understand why it's there but it needs improvement.

I'm not sure a radial menu would quite solve it since it prevents you from looking around, even if momentarily. And what if you have more actions than the radial menu can handle?

I already have keys bound to take out my pistol, change mags, etc. I don't need these options in the scroll menu, it just adds clutter and more shit to scroll through.

I don't understand why people are so opposed to improvement. If you already have a bunch of keys bound to stuff that's in your scroll menu, then why do you need them there? It's redundant.

So why not have the scroll menu plus an interact key? The interact key would function like it would in any modern game. You look at something, it performs the most logical action. Open doors, enter/exit vehicles, climb ladders/fences, search bodies, drag your unconscious buddy out of the line of fire, disarm IED, throw back grenade (j/k!)

While the scroll menu would be relegated to more complex tasks such as vehicle specific functions and custom scripted things like calling in CAS.

IT WOULD STILL BE THE SAME OLD SCROLL MENU YOU HATE TO LOVE.

Honestly, if we had the technology, I'd love to just have a cord go into the back of my head and I could control the game more naturally, but then a bunch of people from the "go back to CoD" crowd would argue that it makes the game too easy for noobs. Get over yourselves.

[twistking 204]

i made a ticket on the feedback-tracker, where i - in detail - suggest a much improved action menu.

please see my signature!

[Sneakson 1]

I really like scrolling...

I think Space should be an action button simply interacting with whatever you’re looking at. That way there can be no possible conflicts since you can only look at one object at a time and that’s how it has worked in all other games ever.

All other actions such as reloading magazines or placing bombs shouldn’t be possible other than by scrolling and then pressing the mouse scroll wheel. When actions become unavailable they grey out until the menu is re-opened and do nothing unless they become possible again instead of disappearing leading to awkward mistakes.

I don’t think it has to be any more advanced or dramatic than that, right?

Instant interaction as well as a scroll menu where absolutely nothing can be accidentally triggered.

As I understand twistking’s solution involves two scrolling menus hah… that’s just awkward.

Instant interaction has been the norm since Doom and for any number of Roguelike-depth actions like changing your magazine to a different size magazine, setting off bombs or cleaning your ears you use a scrolling menu (though I also think any command in the scrolling menu should also be made into a bindable command!)

Has there been any very similar suggestion already or should I make my own ticket?

Have Bohemia ever looked into a Radial menu design? With how responsive and quick a menu has to be in ARMA, it seems like a much more natural solution than a scrolling text menu.

http://vimeo.com/52776130

Wouldn't solve anything lol! Having a big circle of different commands that change at whim would be no different from having a list of commands that jump about.

It works well in Crysis because there are only about 4-5 static options. Basically tapping your scroll wheel and flicking your wrist can make you instantly change modes.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Sneakson

[Fuse 1]

I agree, Sneak. There are a few hitches with the menu as it works now, such as accidentally placing explosives, but these issues are easy to fix and do not require a complete redesign of the UI. I like the list. It's easy to operate and it works well when mods add options.

Really, other than it re-arranging it self and switching what "Use" does unexpectedly I really don't have any complaints with the scroll menu.

I really hope we get the option to continue using the "classic" scroll menu if BI tries to do a radial menu or something. I hate radial menus. They're not any easier to navigate, they are more obstructive, and they are less accommodating to mods. I really don't understand why anyone would want them in a PC game. Most games that use them are console ports. The radial menu was designed with gamepads in mind.