Suffers from the same issues as ArmA 2 IMO

[Tac1 1]

I love the ArmA series, always thought it had tremendous potential and offered something that no other game did, a simulation experience to tactical fps combat. Unfortunately, the devs nor community have been able to find a way to make multiplayer tvt accessible and realistic. I hope ArmA 3 isn't going to be headed down the same path. Here's some of the concerns/suggestions I have from playing Alpha thus far.

Here's the issue when it comes to accessibility. It's not about making the gameplay easier or less hardcore, it's about making the game itself more user friendly. The game needs to be easy to get into (simply being able to actually play), but hard to master. By that I mean a user shouldn't have to jump through so many hoops simply to be able to connect to a server and enjoy the full potential of the game. On ArmA 2 to get into a good server, they were always passworded, and then you had to download 3rd party clients that were extremely cumbersome and added all sorts of modifications to your client. ArmA 3 needs an in-built mod client similar to NS2, to eliminate the need for players to scour the web for all the different utilities (and tutorials to install them) they needed to connect to the select few populated and regulated servers. In short, bring ArmA 3 into the modern era in terms of MP functionality, features, and access. Doing so helps the game grow and eliminates the frustration and time required in years past with ArmA 2 MP. I think some of that responsibility is with the community and server operators as well to foster growth and make the scene more user friendly.

Secondly, the UI and particularly scoreboards needs to be updated, seriously nothing has really changed there at all at this point. More importantly, in a game that's all about teamwork and coordination more features need to be implemented to make those things easier to execute, or at least encouraged. I think a few pages could be stolen from PR in that regard. Which leads me to my biggest issue, the average tvt server is far from realistic and far from what should be considered a simulation. Teamwork is rare and what the combat usually boils down to are small groups of people scattered across gigantic maps fighting for a huge amount of objectives. The scale of the maps, and lack of a focused obj turns into small 1v1, or 3v3 type firefights. There's no sense of a battleline and fighting tooth and nail to advance inch and inch and capturing key territory. Key territory being adj ground and not necessarily the primary obj itself. ArmA 3 desperately needs a core tvt mode made and extensively tested by the developers. A mode where you won't see people randomly jumping into helicopters only to crash them and respawn and jump in another a few seconds later. A mode that's not about gaining money, which isn't realistic either. Ultimately, a mode where the firefights are intense and of a much larger scale. None of this is to knock the current modes, but the game truly needs something that satisfies the crave for sim based combat for tvt oriented players instead of just coop.

Anyway, that's just my opinion on the current alpha, from a MP perspective. I hope that there's a lot in store to modernize the core features of the game.

[teweedo 1]

Woh, it's exactly what I've been saying about Arma2 at the time. It couldn't be more true.

This is a niche genre because it isn't user friendly, I know a LOT of my friends would like to play a game like Arma2/3 but can't bother with all the annoyance around it.

It needs to be completely redesigned from that stand point and it would grow the fanbase a lot.

[-=Grunt=- 10]

ArmA 3 is a Steam exclusive game so you can probably count on Steamworks when it's released. (The same thing NS2 uses)

[Winfernal 2]

Woh, it's exactly what I've been saying about Arma2 at the time. It couldn't be more true.

This is a niche genre because it isn't user friendly, I know a LOT of my friends would like to play a game like Arma2/3 but can't bother with all the annoyance around it.

It needs to be completely redesigned from that stand point and it would grow the fanbase a lot.

Improving useability is good. But it needs to stay at its core. It needs to stay unique, or else it will just blend in with the other shooters we here in the ArmA community are avoiding by playing ArmA.

Growing the fanbase isn't good if it means that the game has to be completely redesigned for it to happen. That's not something BI or the fanbase wants. This community has existed for over 10 years, and it is larger than you would think. And it is also very strong and passionate. :)

OP:

Mods will be on Steamworks in ArmA 3, and it is a lot more userfriendly in that matter. And the UI will probably be improved before release.

Alpha is alpha you know, everything is work in progress. At the Beta is when the features are in, and the bugs remain.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Winfernal

[teweedo 1]

It needs to stay at its core. It needs to stay unique, or else it will just blend in with the other shooters we here in the ArmA community are avoiding by playing.. ArmA.

Growing the fanbase isn't good if it means that the game has to be completely redesigned andgeneric for it to happen. That's not something BI or the fanbase wants.

Obviously.

Did I said anything that would suggest to make the game generic? Growing the fanbase of the genre is always good if the spirit of the game is kept.

The OP is completely right and nothing indicate that Arma3 is going another route so far. The game is badly designed to be user friendly. Which has nothing to do with the game being unique and its core features.

[Harzach 2518]

the devs nor community have been able to find a way to make multiplayer tvt accessible and realistic.

Nonsense. What community do you belong to?

The last thing Arma needs is to become what it, at its core, is not.

Also, "user friendly" != "instantly accessible". Yes, you need to learn some new controls and maybe remap some things. You might even have to learn an entirely new, foreign-to-you command set. Complexity is to be encouraged.

This need for instant gratification is destroying the industry.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Harzach

[Winfernal 2]

The game is badly designed to be user friendly. Which has nothing to do with the game being unique and its core features.

Well, this is also the thing. This is not the game, you're currently in an Alpha. Where features are lacking, and everything is work in progress.

The beta is where all the features are ready, and at release is where you see what the game really is.

I'm sure that there will be changes to UI, to make it more userfriendly. And as i said, mods will work via Steamworks. (Like NS2).

Also, "user friendly" != "instantly accessible". Yes, you need to learn some new controls and maybe remap some things. You might even have to learn an entirely new, foreign-to-you command set. Complexity is to be encouraged.

This need for instant gratification is destroying the industry.

I agree. We've all been there, it takes some learning. But it is worth it in the end. And it's really not that hard if you set your mind to it.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Winfernal

[teweedo 1]

Well, this is also the thing. This is not the game, you're currently in an Alpha. Where features are lacking, and everything is work in progress.

The beta is where all the features are ready, and at release is where you see what the game really is.

I'm sure that there will be changes to UI, to make it more userfriendly. And as i said, mods will work via Steamworks. (Like NS2).

It's true that the release on steam will help with the mods.

As for the UI/menu/overall key design then I doubt they're going to change much, it's very close to what we had in Arma2 so far. Also I'm well aware it's the alpha which is why it is the right moment to voice our opinion on this particular matter. Whishing something will happen and not say a thing isn't the way to go. If we wants the devs to be aware of such issue then it's the right time to shout it out.

I'm an Arma fan and I'm not, for my personal use, bothered by the way the game is designed. However, I want the game to succeed to bring more fans of the genre and build up the player base.

[Winfernal 2]

It's true that the release on steam will help with the mods.

As for the UI/menu/overall key design then I doubt they're going to change much, it's very close to what we had in Arma2 so far. Also I'm well aware it's the alpha which is why it is the right moment to voice our opinion on this particular matter. Whishing something will happen and not say a thing isn't the way to go. If we wants the devs to be aware of such issue then it's the right time to shout it out.

I'm an Arma fan and I'm not, for my personal use, bothered by the way the game is designed. However, I want the game to succeed to bring more fans of the genre and build up the player base.

http://feedback.arma3.com/

I advise you to go here and file a report about it. This way your voice will matter more than a thread on the forum, since we're only discussing here :)

Edit: I mistaked you for the OP (tired.). But yes, OP: the feedback site is a better place to give your feedback! In that way you could also include the report link, for us to vote, when you start a thread like this.

[teweedo 1]

http://feedback.arma3.com/

I advise you to go here and file a report about it. This way your voice will matter more than a thread on the forum, since we're only discussing here :)

I thought it was only made to report bugs for some reason. Will check it out, thanks a lot.

[HKFlash 9]

I thought it was only made to report bugs for some reason. Will check it out, thanks a lot.

You can request features yes.

[nephros 23]

This was my first impression with the Arma series as well. A lot of really great modding going to waste because it was so difficult to stay on the same build and combination as others. For someone like me who has a family and a job and very limited opportunity to play it was frustrating to waste do much time just getting everything figured out. This is where playwithsix / six updater seems like something that can really revolutionize the series by easily getting groups of people together with the same mod combinations.

[Zordon 1]

I understand what you're saying op, however theres a few things that you might be experiencing just because you're playing solo on public WASTELAND servers.

Arma changed drastically for me when i jumped on to some random server's TS and made my first 5 man squad, things went from getting killed 5 times while trying to get a weapon or getting my car destroyed by some random asshole in my team to killing people 5 times and succesfully getting my whole team out of there without any casualties. (and no i don't think this is something that the game should encourage, its more something that the player should search for to get a better experience)

I do agree however that theres things that BI can do to improve the UI and server features to make it somewhat more user friendly (specially letting people integrate, 3rd party download servers to be able to download/install everything its needed to play on their server instead of having to do everything manually) and with the correct feedback im sure it will be fixed after all thats what alphas are for mate.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Zordon

[Gorbachev 1]

Don't expect full or even functional workshop integration. It isn't prepared to handle the likes of arma mods.

[wipman 1]

Hi, for improve the PvP game modes, they should make and add various entirely not real islands; tematic islands. Military complexes, civilian airports, sea docks, small/medium towns, some "rustic", others in ruins and other more modern but all densely builded; also industrial complexes and things like that. That would give the players scenarios where their shape would encourage the players to cooperate and work as a team, aside atract more or new players.

This would also be good for have intense firefights and missions with zero lag but alot of action, thing not very present on the ArmA series... ; once you'd played by some years to a game that it's base is, to walk by an empty island... it losts it's fun. Once you exit the more or less predefined paths for reach the mission objectives and see nothing alive in there... you realice that there's isn't that much freedom of action. They should incluse this small tematic islands on the final release, with some PvP game modes aside of some coop ones, as Clean & Sweep, Sabotage & Scape or some others; that would atract new players and would keep some of the ones that already have. Let's C ya

[Tac1 1]

Improving useability is good. But it needs to stay at its core. It needs to stay unique, or else it will just blend in with the other shooters we here in the ArmA community are avoiding by playing ArmA.

Growing the fanbase isn't good if it means that the game has to be completely redesigned for it to happen. That's not something BI or the fanbase wants. This community has existed for over 10 years, and it is larger than you would think. And it is also very strong and passionate. :)

OP:

Mods will be on Steamworks in ArmA 3, and it is a lot more userfriendly in that matter. And the UI will probably be improved before release.

Alpha is alpha you know, everything is work in progress. At the Beta is when the features are in, and the bugs remain.

I kind of figured that, in regards to steamworks. But, who knows if that will fully satisfy everyone given some of the stuff that was added to arma 2, we'll see. But, that's not the biggest issue I have. Right now tvt combat is awful, just being brutally honest. It's not the least bit what I would consider simulation. There are other issues as well regarding how the vehicles still handle.

Also, I've been in plenty of alphas and surprisingly core changes, like the ones being discussed, are rarely made. It's amazing sometimes how similar the final release is comparative to alpha builds, minus bugs. So history tells me to look at this alpha as being darn close to the finished product.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Tac1

[Winfernal 2]

I kind of figured that, in regards to steamworks. But, who knows if that will fully satisfy everyone given some of the stuff that was added to arma 2, we'll see. But, that's not the biggest issue I have. Right now tvt combat is awful, just being brutally honest. It's not the least bit what I would consider simulation. There are other issues as well regarding how the vehicles still handle.

Also, I've been in plenty of alphas and surprisingly core changes, like the ones being discussed, are rarely made. It's amazing sometimes how similar the final release is comparative to alpha builds, minus bugs. So history tells me to look at this alpha as being darn close to the finished product.

The beta is where all features are in and ready.

[Dangerdog 0]

ArmA 3 is a Steam exclusive game so you can probably count on Steamworks when it's released. (The same thing NS2 uses)

No, you shouldn't assume just because Arma 3 is steam exclusive that it'll utilize "Steamworks" functions. From what I've read even the server browser that's in the Alpha is here to stay.

[Wolf85 1]

Hi, for improve the PvP game modes, they should make and add various entirely not real islands; tematic islands. Military complexes, civilian airports, sea docks, small/medium towns, some "rustic", others in ruins and other more modern but all densely builded; also industrial complexes and things like that. That would give the players scenarios where their shape would encourage the players to cooperate and work as a team, aside atract more or new players.

This would also be good for have intense firefights and missions with zero lag but alot of action, thing not very present on the ArmA series... ; once you'd played by some years to a game that it's base is, to walk by an empty island... it losts it's fun. Once you exit the more or less predefined paths for reach the mission objectives and see nothing alive in there... you realice that there's isn't that much freedom of action. They should incluse this small tematic islands on the final release, with some PvP game modes aside of some coop ones, as Clean & Sweep, Sabotage & Scape or some others; that would atract new players and would keep some of the ones that already have. Let's C ya

Basically what you say is turning ARMA on a BF / COD game. No thanks.

Each game has its own style, and ARMA is not 100% PVP focused. This would be like asking COD had larger maps and Coop missions. No way.

[Winfernal 2]

Basically what you say is turning ARMA on a BF / COD game. No thanks.

Each game has its own style, and ARMA is not 100% PVP focused. This would be like asking COD had larger maps and Coop missions. No way.

While i don't entierly agree with him. That's not what he said.

Addings things like he mentioned wont remove anything else, it will simple add more playstyles. Among many things, ArmA is about playing it the way YOU like it. Sandbox.

We already have custom maps/missions that are limited to a smaller space of the map. For CQC.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Winfernal

[Wolf85 1]

No, you shouldn't assume just because Arma 3 is steam exclusive that it'll utilize "Steamworks" functions. From what I've read even the server browser that's in the Alpha is here to stay.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?147815-Why-are-you-still-using-Gamespy-for-mp-Use-Steamworks-please&p=2326239&viewfull=1#post2326239

[Winfernal 2]

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?147815-Why-are-you-still-using-Gamespy-for-mp-Use-Steamworks-please&p=2326239&viewfull=1#post2326239

Thank you. I was trying to find that myself :)

Alpha is still Alpha. And it has to be mentioned over and over again, sadly. Everything is WIP.

[Dangerdog 0]

Dwarden defends the Gamespy server browser, so I'm going to assume it'll remain - with improvements as time goes on.

As for the OP looking for BiS to come up with solutions for mod management and "team" focused multiplayer gametypes you'll need to look toward the Arma community for those solutions. What BiS needs to focus on is making all of the games sub-systems work with as many performance enhancements they can muster, if they can get destruction working beyond simple slight of hand tricks of swapping out whole buildings for example then the community will make the maps and gametypes to enhance the experience.

[Tac1 1]

The community hasn't been able to develop an active tvt sim yet, so I can't assume it's going to happen all of a sudden. PR tried, but I think BF remained their main focus. The devs have to be the ones.

[zoog 18]

I have been thinking about this too. Here is a copy of a post I made elsewhere in this forum, which I guess fits this thread/topic:

Today I was thinking about something: with the new and improvement movement and shooting mechanics the PvP aspect of Arma has already improved a lot. It feels more natural en you are not fighting your character while in heavy firefights against other human players.

OFP/ARMA is based on the premise of full customization and modding, which results in a full range of different community made game modes, missions, mods etc. etc. The things we all love about the ARMA series. However, stuff like this comes with a price. Things are fragmented, some PvP game modes can be completely different from others (with different role select options, weapon select options etc, depending on mod, mission and author), it can be cumbersome to join a random server running all kinds of mods etc. But of course ARMA needs to stay open and moddable like it is now.

But what if, on top of what we have now(!!), BIS also launches a more "closed vanilla PvP platform" which you can access from the main menu (Multiplayer > Give_it_a_name). This will show you all servers running specific PvP BIS missions (for example in line with BF3 conquest, squad rush etc) which are not moddable and always accessible for anyone and require vanilla. The game types are official gametypes provided by BIS. You can always jump right in and know what to expect. It includes a whole lobby/squad/role/weapon system etc. specifically developed for this "closed system" (and lots of filters to find your type of game/server). Basically an official PvP game inside the ArmA 3 environment. You can take this a step further, and also include CQB game modes / maps ala Rainbow Six: Raven Shield for example (with pre-set mission lists which can be put into specific order, build in number of rounds, round timers between round with weapon selection screen etc). So this would be an environment run by BIS (not the servers, but the platform in which servers can be added by the community), which every vanilla player can easily find and join, with an overarching continuity in experience, gameplay, squad features etc. Very accessible without sacrificing the tactical slow paced game play we all love!

This way the full range of possibilities of the Arma framework with tactical slow paced game play is addressed. We will still have our beloved co-op, we will still have our custom pvp and tvt developed by mission makers, development teams (project reality etc) and we have a more confined regulated experience with continuity in features and game modes filling the gap for users who like the premise of for example games like BF3 but don't like that type of gameplay. You know, I played BF3 for about 30 hours when it was released, the core idea is great (big scale pvp, combined arms etc), but the excution is not my thing (arcade, no simulation, etc). I also liked to play games like Rainbow Six: Raven Shield TvT, absolutely awesome, but no other developer currently has this type of game released recently. With all the improvements of Arma 3 I think it can provide a broader experience separate from what we already have. I know there are custom missions replicating things like this, but there is no continuity and poor accessibility to easily jump into this type of games.

And not just front-end cosmetic changes, but also a default role select or weapon/gear selection screen before mission start or in between rounds, default scoring systems, default respawn mechanics or revive/heal mechanics across the board etc. Because if you look at games like Bf3, these confined games deliver always the same experience, because only the developer provides this experience. With ARMA, thank god, this is not the case. But it might be beneficial for the PvP crowd so to speak, as an optional part of the game.

Edited March 11, 2013 by zoog