[Feedback&Suggestions] Diving and underwater combat

[Tonci87 163]

So I spend a good time underwater (IRL and in the Alpha) and here are my thoughts and ideas.

The environment:

Fantastic Job BIS!

It looks very good and natural, it is not overdone. But there is still room to make it better :)

This plant is called Posidonia oceanica

http://tahitiangoddess.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/posidonia-oceanica-0000-fatc-0000-0001-00.jpg (194 kB)

It´s underwater grass that can cover large parts of sea ground. It is very common in the mediteranean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posidonia_oceanica

It can also grow big enough to hide divers

http://imedea.uib-csic.es/public/img/notice_images/nimages/91/original_posidonia_tovar_cpmpleta.png (1291 kB)

We already have some nice wrecks, but wouldn´t it be nice to have some wrecks big enough to actually dive into? Maybe a sunken carrier or battleship?

The Fish:

Brilliant! I really like it.

The only way to improve this is by adding more kinds of fish, adding PhysX for dead fish so that they sink to the ground, and by making swarms of small fish.

The Diving:

There is still the little bug that you can see through the underwater "fog" by staying close to the surface.

The diving animations are superb!

One problem that I have is that your character immediately stops if you don´t press anything. His momentum should carry him a little bit through the water, depending on his speed prior to stopping.

Also why does the diver go into a "standing" position if he stops? You wouldn´t do that IRL unless you want to examine something directly in front of you or you want to go higher.

We´ll come to stances in the next section.

It would also be nice if a diver would kick up dust by moving close to the ground.

Another thing I don´t understand:

Why can´t I open my gear while swimming or diving?

I can´t check my inventory, I can´t take something from another diver or a crate. Or even place some satchels to blow up something underwater.

This should be fixed.

Now for the important part

Underwater Combat:

I don´t like it as it is now. There is very much room for improvement.

Currently the underwater combat is very static. A Blufor and a Redfor team meet, they line up and fire at each other until one side is dead. It feels like a 18th century line battle, just with less people, more automatic weapons and well, lots of water.

Why can´t the divers shoot while moving?

The accuracy should be quite bad if you shoot while moving, but you still should be able to do so if you desire. You should also be able to reload.

I think this would make underwater combat more dynamic and interesting.

I actually made a ticket on this matter

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=2378

Please take the time to comment/vote

Currently the divers stay in a stance that resembels "standing" while fighting. This is highly unrealistic. A combat diver would try to be a target as small as possible by going into a "prone" position. I actually saw a AI diver do this, so I guess it is possible. It should also be possible for the player. While thinking about it, why would a diver want to go into the "standing" stance? IRL you would only do this if you had to examine something directly in front of you, or if you want to gain height. the diver should remain "prone" even if he stops.

I noticed that you are currently unable to shoot something directly above yourself. While this isn´t a big problem in usual firefights it very well is in a 3dimensional underwater combat scenario. That should be fixed as well.

My idea to improve this is to combine the "prone" stance from my previous suggestion with the ability to roll via the Q&E keys. If you hold Q your character should roll on his left side (with E on his right) until you release the key. That could be used to shot sideways, or at targets above you.

There is a ticket on this too:

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=2383

Vote it up.

Another nice thing would be if the characters breath went faster in firefights, this would raise the tension.

Also Harpoons, they are to awesome to not have them in the game^^

Thank you if you took the time to read it all, I hope some of those things catch BIS attention.

Please discuss these suggestions, I guess some of you have even better ideas.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Tonci87

[b00tsy 28]

Good points! And big yes for harpoons too!

As for adding more sea grass and more fishes, it might cause a to big performance hit? For me I already have less fps in the water then on land as it is now.

[gliptal 25]

Good points!

Yay!

[froggyluv 2130]

Also it seems like underwater buonancy is missing no? Meaning the divers (and dead fish) feel static when still.

[Bee8190 10]

Good points indeed, especially;

We already have some nice wrecks, but wouldn´t it be nice to have some wrecks big enough to actually dive into? Maybe a sunken carrier or battleship?

As for the access of gear it's probably not done yet but good to point out anyways

[zooloo75 833]

Also it seems like underwater buonancy is missing no? Meaning the divers (and dead fish) feel static when still.

And that can be fixed very easily too! @BIS - Use setVelocity! :)

I'll whip up a buoyancy code real quick :P

hint "Buoyancy Script by Zooloo75 (AKA Stealthstick)";
_unit = _this select 0;
_buoyancyVel = [color="#FFA07A"](INSERT BUOYANCY VELOCITY HERE)[/color];

while {true} do {
if((underwater (vehicle _unit)) && (speed (vehicle _unit)) < 2) then 
{
(vehicle _unit) setVelocity [((velocity (vehicle _unit)) select 0),((velocity (vehicle _unit)) select 1),((velocity (vehicle _unit)) select 2) + _buoyancyVel];
};
sleep 0.1; //Lazy Optimization
};

To use this, paste it into a sqf called "buoyancy.sqf" in your mission folder. In a unit's init line, put this...

[this] execVM "buoyancy.sqf";

To make all units have buoyancy do this...

{[_x] execVM "buoyancy.sqf"} foreach AllUnits;

Put that in a game logic or in init.sqf.

P.S. I haven't tested any of this - so if this works, then yay :)

Did a bit of testing and concluded that setVelocity has no effect underwater. Hopefully BIS fixes this!

Edited March 10, 2013 by zooloo75

[Ezcoo 47]

I like to spend my time underwater both IRL and in game too. Diving the best part of the game to me too, and I really like the effects and animations especially. :)

I think that buoyancy should not be implemented or should made a setting at least, because it'd restrict the freedom of the game. Those who would like to play with it could use the scripts and/or mods. It could result in problems if you e.g. were in deep water and had to go AFK for a while. You'd find yourself lying on the bottom when you come back. On the other hand, leaving the keyboard while being near presence of enemy in shallow water could be catastrophic too, because the character would "pop" on the surface pretty soon.

EDIT: Or, at least, the diver should be given a chance to balance his buoyancy like in IRL. If they're using wetsuits, then it's more complex thing I think.

One thing that I hope that could be added is that whirls caused by e.g. fins of divers should raise stuff like sand off the bottom that would very slowly come down back to bottom after the whirl has settled. It'd be realistic and would be a balancing factor in underwater combat too – divers should be careful to not to leave signs of them. On the other hand, I understand if implementing this isn't an option, because it'd have probably relatively high performance cost.

[Tonci87 163]

I don´t think that buoyancy should have an effect on combat divers. I´m pretts sure that they are able to control this. But people without wetsuits?. That is another thing.

[Ezcoo 47]

I don´t think that buoyancy should have an effect on combat divers. I´m pretts sure that they are able to control this. But people without wetsuits?. That is another thing.

Agreed. The buoyancy as freediver could be implemented in my opinion. Two ways to implement it comes to my mind; either so that the character without proper equipment starts to ascend, descend or stays in the same depth depending on his depth, or so that the character keeps the same depth always, but uses his oxygen reserve and gets tired the more, the higher the difference between the neutral depth and his current depth is, simulating the work needed to keep the current depth.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

How can you transfer from boat to boat? Anyone tried this? Moving from boat to boat is very difficult - you have to jump in the water 1st.

+1 for buoyancy for dead divers - they should sink more slowly.

+1 for gear menu underwater.

+1 for attachable limpet mine / satchel to blow up boats.

[Tonci87 163]

Hmm I think dead divers sink just fine, why do you want them to sink slower?

[SoFGR 1]

what if underwater combat was handled like shattered horizon's space combat ?

[mrcash2009 0]

I was under the impression that phyx would take part in how the body and water resistance would effect it with pressure .. ie crawlig around in gell resistance (not so full on though). I saw Shaktacs first videos, and it did seem as if "heres the swimming animation but it looks like they might as well be over land in mid air" without a feel of the water around the body.

I cant say how this would work FPS wise, but however its implemented, script, underwater body resistance module sync, or core engine, much like they improved movement of the body now in battles of infantry it would be nice to see/feel that your under water also, than in a blue scene with swimming anims.

[zooloo75 833]

I was under the impression that phyx would take part in how the body and water resistance would effect it with pressure .. ie crawlig around in gell resistance (not so full on though). I saw Shaktacs first videos, and it did seem as if "heres the swimming animation but it looks like they might as well be over land in mid air" without a feel of the water around the body.

I cant say how this would work FPS wise, but however its implemented, script, underwater body resistance module sync, or core engine, much like they improved movement of the body now in battles of infantry it would be nice to see/feel that your under water also, than in a blue scene with swimming anims.

I wrote a script on the first page, it was ignored...

I used setVelocity and it had no effect underwater. I used setPos, and that worked. The only downside to setPos is that it resets your animation and won't allow you to press any keys (unless you add an eventhandler to handle the keys to allow them to cancel the setPos).

As I said earlier, BIS needs to fix setVelocity to work underwater.

[Tonci87 163]

I was under the impression that phyx would take part in how the body and water resistance would effect it with pressure .. ie crawlig around in gell resistance (not so full on though). I saw Shaktacs first videos, and it did seem as if "heres the swimming animation but it looks like they might as well be over land in mid air" without a feel of the water around the body.

I cant say how this would work FPS wise, but however its implemented, script, underwater body resistance module sync, or core engine, much like they improved movement of the body now in battles of infantry it would be nice to see/feel that your under water also, than in a blue scene with swimming anims.

^this

[JojoTheSlayer 35]

Yeah, I think the instant "stand" underwater seems unnatural.

Its not a vacuum. Moving in fluid is SLOWER than air.

Shooting wise I also agree there should be some sort of "tactical swim" mode where you move forward slightly slower or something, but can shoot from "the hip"

[Tonci87 163]

Yeah, I think the instant "stand" underwater seems unnatural.

Its not a vacuum. Moving in fluid is SLOWER than air.

Shooting wise I also agree there should be some sort of "tactical swim" mode where you move forward slightly slower or something, but can shoot from "the hip"

Nice Idea.

To the guys claiming that you can´t shoot under water while moving. You are not in zero gravity conditions. You will not start to spin around because of the recoil. Good, even average Divers can stabilize themselves with their fins, they don´t need their arms to do that.

[Tonci87 163]

I thought of one more thing: Night diving. Currently it´s not really possible because of the darkness. Wee need the abilty to attach a flashlight to the gun, or a flashlight mounted on the divers head.

Also, has anybody noticed that grenades have a much larger damage radius under water? That´s pretty cool.

[liquidpinky 11]

I thought of one more thing: Night diving. Currently it´s not really possible because of the darkness. Wee need the abilty to attach a flashlight to the gun, or a flashlight mounted on the divers head.

Also, has anybody noticed that grenades have a much larger damage radius under water? That´s pretty cool.

Indeed, also boats with dive lights and platforms would be nice.

Currently night diving with attaching chemlights to your self is a pretty decent experience, properly implimented lights would be excellent.

Maybe some larger marine life now and again as well.

[cifordayzserver 119]

Great thread!

I actually couldn't find one when I went looking so I started my own as well... check it out and let me know if you want to merge threads or consolidate them or something?

I will keep checking on this thread as well and incorporating any ideas/suggestions I see here over there as well if you don't mind...

Also I encourage EVERYONE to join the Scuba Group I created:

http://forums.bistudio.com/group.php?groupid=291

[Asaob 10]

I also really hope they will make the diveing better. (the diveing already is great, but need some improvement) First of all, i missing the most the under water see sound. Like the air and bugs noise on the land. If you check this video

for reference (yeah i know i link this a couple of times, but its great for to demonstrate how should be look and sound an underwater scene) If you listen carefuly you can hear the see sound behind the bubble sound.(when i was diveing i always hear these muffled crackling sound) Now the arma3 only have the breathing sound with bubbles no enviroment sound at all. The underwater waves sound should be syncronized with the wave's length what you can change already in the editor.

The other thing is those white small see dusts(particles). In arma 3 these can only seenable when you are in 3rd persion view. If you are in first person you cant see them, or barely and they didnt move good.

My last request is the light and shadow rays those effect's are must have for under water scenes.

1 more bonus request is the light caustics. I think it look great in deeper regions, but in near the coast should be much more intense and the water color is little bit greenier with closer water fogs.

Damn last request... we need more underwater wildlife. like small fishes in swarms. (they can be 2d because they so small, with that shader what already the fishes have) more aquatic plants variations, some wrecks (maybe 1 big) and one easter egg a big white shark who is gonna be a rare encounter ingame.

Thats it, thanks for reading and sorry about the lot requests

Edited March 16, 2013 by Asaob

[Tonci87 163]

Joined. I´m curious to see if there will be any gameplaymods tweaking the diving aspect of the game, maybe making it more realistic?

[liquidpinky 11]

Joined the SCUBA group.

I have a very limited real life experience diving but fortunately a couple of times was off Cyprus and so far A3 has it pretty spot on for look and feel of the region I thought.

Diving is a great new aspect to the Arma series and I am looking forward to what both BIS and the modding community bring to the table in the future of A3.

[Boo 1]

So I spend a good time underwater (IRL and in the Alpha) and here are my thoughts and ideas.

The environment:

Fantastic Job BIS!

It looks very good and natural, it is not overdone. But there is still room to make it better :)

This plant is called Posidonia oceanica

http://tahitiangoddess.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/posidonia-oceanica-0000-fatc-0000-0001-00.jpg (194 kB)

one thing on that, i think if that grass would be added to bottom of ocean it would drop the FPS much, because if it has moving animation too so it would look really realistic, it would drop much fps, atleast for me i think :D. But anyway, good points! but yeah, the underwater gearmenu should be added.

[RAWmEAT 1]

Diving realism needs to be improved, I was able to dive like a fish without the limits of a human.

Example

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decompression_sickness

what I disliked also is that if you are in scuba suit you can run around, jump into the water and you have immediately attached your scubagear and fins.

I would prefer to see different scubagears.

I know its almost impossible to integrate a full realistic dive physics and stuff without making it unplayable but since this game wants to show some realism the basics should be provided.

Here is some stuff I'd like to see and I think its possible to make it without makeing it unplayable.

- classic bottle (bubbles limited divetime)

- rebreather (diving without generating bubbles, enhanced divetime) - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCUBA

- diving computer which shows you if you are going up too fast or how long you have to stay on a level to decompress, how long you can stay underwater etc.

- you cant run in your divingsuit over the island carrying a rebreather or a gasbottle without beeing limited in your speed, stamina and stealth.

- different pressurelevels should have impact on the divetime (diving at 10m consumes less air then diving at 30m as example)

Taking the demo mission as example:

Maybe you can drop the gasbottle and diving gear at the coast before you steal the AA Launcher move on top of the hill, destroy the helicopter and get back to your diving gear attach it again, enable it and get into water.

This will make it more realistic since you have to drop the gear at a hidden area, get to the spot after you shot the Helicopter and gear up. I don't know how long a military diver needs to get into his suit but i bet its about 10 seconds or more where hes unable to fire a gun.

Greets RAW