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g_rider

Everyone gets a trophy syndrome has come to ARMA

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I think we know with the success of the A2OA DLC there was going to be a ARMA III with DLC. But to have all the details of development trends and decisions would require a position I'm not in to answer.

They must've sold over a million of ArmA copies because of DayZ. It clearly shows the importance of the modding communitues, though!

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Fair enough. You may want to consider being less belligerent when you post. What you say has more weight when you rely on your arguments or your concerns instead of ad hominems to convey your point. Far be it from me to say that you shouldn't discuss something that you feel is a concern (even if I disagree), but it is better when everyone remains courteous in discussions.

Just to clarify an ad hominem is a person attack of irrelevance. I used a whole generational point of relevance.

---------- Post added at 06:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:02 AM ----------

DayZ itself is anything but dumbed down. If anything vanilla game needs some stuff from it - it had bleeding and injuries that could've been healed only by specialized equipment or your buddy (blood transfusion) - something vanilla A2 didn't have and something A3 doesn't have either (using a magical 1 click-heal medkit instead). DayZ is not easy and dying in it is a lot more cruel than boring respawn missions many people play.

The problem however is that DayZ brought really really bad players who don't understand and don't care about what ArmA is and considering how hardcore DayZ is I'm really surprised it let those people in.

I missed this.

I suggest you look at ACE mod and it's stretchers, epinephrin, morphine, splints, and all it's off shoots and ideas from other mods since ARMA I days. This stuff has been around for a long long time in military focused mods before Dayz.

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Correct. This is what i think too. No one is doing serious events on public servers anyways? And private servers are fully-customizable with both configs and missions.
Sounds like a plausible explanation for the hypothetical dev attitude: "It's okay to focus on newcomers coming from less milsim backgrounds as far as designing vanilla so long as we leave the hardcores versatility so that the hardcores can simply 'sim it up' on their own private servers."
DayZ's success was because of it being the first successful, hardcore, realistic zombie sim. And it came at the right time. No one is to be blamed for this. Gamers in general wanted something like this, and so they received from an A2 mod. It's not Dean Halls or BIs fault that ACE isn't seeing the same success.
Let's not forget that before DayZ, Arma 2/OA's two biggest "sources of notoriety" were the ITV incident and before that, the Battle Bus... which to me says something about what it took to draw eyes to Arma (TL;DR: Milsim doesn't draw eyeballs -- and thus curious people's dollars -- like weirdness does) before DayZ.

This will probably rankle a bunch of noses but I'll say it: the initial DayZ concept was more complex than vanilla Arma 2... but implemented in a manner that was far more compelling to a mainstream/non-milsim audience than ACE's complexity, I imagine because the DayZ concept resulted in (for a time before "deathmatch mentality") a new emergent gameplay type instead of simply being a realism mod for an already unappealing gameplay type, so that DayZ's complexity became part of the attraction instead of a punchline.

As far as the "Rocket already working for BI" angle I mentioned before, apparently Rocket was already an Arma 3 dev (working on multiplayer mission design) by the time that DayZ became a cultural phenomenon, while to my knowledge none of the ACE team have ever worked for BI directly as employees or contractors. That Valve and BI might show favoritism on that basis alone isn't even that surprising.

I suggest you look at ACE mod and it's stretchers, epinephrin, morphine, splints, and all it's off shoots and ideas from other mods since ARMA I days. This stuff has been around for a long long time in military focused mods before Dayz.
He's perfectly aware of ACE's medical system, believe me.

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He's perfectly aware of ACE's medical system, believe me.

Who is this he you're referencing? Are you referring to metalcraze who I replied about ACE and other mods long before had those features and many many more medical features before Dayz. So, hence BIS could learn from the former not the later.

DayZ itself is anything but dumbed down. If anything vanilla game needs some stuff from it - it had bleeding and injuries that could've been healed only by specialized equipment or your buddy (blood transfusion) - something vanilla A2 didn't have and something A3 doesn't have either (using a magical 1 click-heal medkit instead). DayZ is not easy and dying in it is a lot more cruel than boring respawn missions many people play.

The problem however is that DayZ brought really really bad players who don't understand and don't care about what ArmA is and considering how hardcore DayZ is I'm really surprised it let those people in.

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Maybe its a good example of how things are these days, the main focus of a complete open ended do as you want milsim got truncated down to a 'zombies' mission type, always found the irony strong with that one.

As long as everyone gets to play how they want, since it is a sandbox game. So what if some CoD fans find their way here? So what if they enjoy playing with 3rd person and crosshairs? There is no room for elitist behaviour in this community, there is no "better" way of playing ArmA. The point of the game is that it is sandbox, and that you can play the way YOU want.

But some of the changes made to arma3 v arma2 and some of the request so far for Alpha (jumping,melee ... etc) updates means some of us might not have what we already wanted, you see? I say stick all the COD shit in DayZ, you have a standalone game coming, and milsim types have A3, no elite, just wanting to keep this thing grounded. The worry isnt the sandbox, but the core content and the sandbox pandering to play styles that isnt "milsim" per-se by people requesting all manner of crap and then blasting the word "elite" to folk who see it for what it is.

This argument died a death back in Arma2/Dayz release, funny that nearly all things in A3 forums and Alpha have been said and done & requested to death months ago, this forum is just groundhog day for new folk re hashing the old arguments. Anyway, I just hope BI stick to the plan and dont waver, and mainly leave it up to modding to add anything non milsim related (IE: cull the shit for that area only) for the sandbox 'choices'.

Edited by mrcash2009

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Asked to remove a private conversation. So removed.

Edited by G_Rider

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Still keep in mind what Arma would be, if all unrealistic functions would be removed and if it had ACE builtin. Sales drop, I'm sure, and no further development.

I want all sides of the coin, unrealistic and not unrealistic stuff. I don't want Arma to be dumbed down in way, that e.g. everybody has to use fast run speeds. But if dumbing down is optional, I'm perfectly fine with this. Personally, sometimes I like to play on 3rd person servers simply because I'm lazy or too much 1st person makes me feel sick somehow. SO WHAT!

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Maybe its a good example of how things are these days, the main focus of a complete open ended do as you want milsim got truncated down to a 'zombies' mission type, always found the irony strong with that one.

But some of the changes made to arma3 v arma2 and some of the request so far for Alpha (jumping,melee ... etc) updates means some of us might not have what we already wanted, you see? I say stick all the COD shit in DayZ, you have a standalone game coming, and milsim types have A3, no elite, just wanting to keep this thing grounded. The worry isnt the sandbox, but the core content and the sandbox pandering to play styles that isnt "milsim" per-se by people requesting all manner of crap and then blasting the word "elite" to folk who see it for what it is.

This argument died a death back in Arma2/Dayz release, funny that nearly all things in A3 forums and Alpha have been said and done & requested to death months ago, this forum is just groundhog day for new folk re hashing the old arguments. Anyway, I just hope BI stick to the plan and dont waver, and mainly leave it up to modding to add anything non milsim related for the sandbox choices.

I've been away for a long time and missed most of what surly was a painful period for many here. But my pain has just started as I've been away for so long now.

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belittling sarcasm misidentified as insults and trolling.[/b]

"Belittling sarcasm" is as unwelcome here, is as contrary to the rules here as insults and trolling so I would suggest you put a stop to it right away please, your general tone and attitude in this thread is extremely disappointing and if this is what the community has to learn from their "veteran" brethren I say we should welcome the "noobs" with open arms.

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G-Rider, its up to BI to keep a balance in the end outside of the noise of requests and banter. As I say gank & loot really are mission types an modes, and (fingers crossed) this shall all stay the same as tag on options built around the core of the milsim. If it didnt then we would be saying that BI has completely lost the plot, and I dont believe we are at that stage yet :)

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"Belittling sarcasm" is as unwelcome here, is as contrary to the rules here as insults and trolling so I would suggest you put a stop to it right away please, your general tone and attitude in this thread is extremely disappointing and if this is what the community has to learn from their "veteran" brethren I say we should welcome the "noobs" with open arms.
.

Point taken.

In fairness the thread (full of sarcasm and belittling) was directed at BIS not the community. And when I was told to stop I did. You're a bit late on that.

---------- Post added at 07:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 AM ----------

I say we should welcome the "noobs" with open arms.

I would say don't use open arms but take them under your wing so they aren't forever stuck as a cadet from coddling.

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.

I would say don't use open arms but take them under your wing so they aren't forever stuck as a cadet from coddling.

This is a very good point.

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G-Rider, its up to BI to keep a balance in the end outside of the noise of requests and banter. As I say gank & loot really are mission types an modes, and (fingers crossed) this shall all stay the same as tag on options built around the core of the milsim. If it didnt then we would be saying that BI has completely lost the plot, and I dont believe we are at that stage yet :)

Well put. Actually helped. Thanks.

---------- Post added at 07:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:34 AM ----------

This is a very good point.

Which for some might have lost what this thread is titled and about.

In general not to anyone specific. Take it for what it's worth.

I never dismissed anyone here without reason. I know I'm curt. Trying to correct me is really losing sight of what I was looking for and wasting your time. I've actually made something of myself by being curt so those projections in attempt to change my tone are not going to work on me. And frankly this thread's title should clue any of you who took the time to understand that syndrome on society what you might be in for coming in here trying any counterpoint for the sake of counterpointing.

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Well put. Actually helped. Thanks.

---------- Post added at 07:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:34 AM ----------

Which for some might have lost what this thread is titled and about.

In general not to anyone specific. Take it for what it's worth.

I never dismissed anyone here without reason. I know I'm curt. Trying to correct me is really losing sight of what I was looking for and wasting your time. I've actually made something of myself by being curt so those projections in attempt to change my tone are not going to work on me. And frankly this thread's title should clue any of you who took the time to understand that syndrome on society what you might be in for coming in here trying any counterpoint for the sake of counterpointing.

To sum it up.

Seeing this about "syndroms" and gen 0's made me flip a bit, to be honest. I'm sorry for the posts i wrote that shouldn't have posted. But they'll stay since i deal with the consequences of my actions.

I do see your point, but i can't see us being at this stage yet with BI and ArmA. And sarcasm rarely work on the internet :p

Edited by Winfernal

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This is pretty much all wrong.

Veteran default had no 3rd person and especially no enemies on the map. You had to change the settings on Veteran to allow these.

---------- Post added at 02:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:09 AM ----------

Not sure where this is from (besides in this thread) but is encapsulates my sentiments of some of the dumbing down. While if you could put today's setting side by side of former difficulty settings before the changes it would be even more obvious to the less experienced here.

This chart is compiled from default veteran difficulty settings. As you can see, 3d Person is enabled by default. When was the last time you played Arma 2?

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I would stick my neck and say this ... whats the one thing that's the elephant in the room here?

I will mention it, the influx of steam/casual players, this is most evident in the requests at the moment (some very COD like expectations or BF3), and also quite a bit more evident in how those servers are being set (or not), and, if you look at youtube in the most recent week of arma3 videos, play a game of "spot the use of first person view" in the videos, needle in a haystack at some points.

Good or bad, up to you, but, the pattern is most evident my dear Watson :)

Im sure things will spread out more and calm a bit, and I guess the same server end when its just as always to lock into a clan server than random play.

I see what you see OP but I agree with the quoted post. From my POV, one can't expect new player to the series just hop in and expect them to play uber tactical without any ingame helpers as that would frustrate them even more because as it is, many have apparently no clue what to do as it is.

Let'em explore the game and as the game progress I'm sure we will see tighter server settings and hopefully recruits will be the corporals by than but they need to learn the mechanics and the game first.

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From my POV, one can't expect new player to the series just hop in and expect them to play uber tactical without any ingame helpers as that would frustrate them even more because as it is, many have apparently no clue what to do as it is.

Thats called tutorials & scenarios, which came better in 2 and will come better in 3 as mentioned by BI and this community and help threads.

Theres vast difference of using helpers and scenarios to familiarise someone with how the milsim operated, and changing a milsim to pander to be everything to anyone and lose its core focus. Its been said a million times in Arma2 forums, people need some tutorial help to step up to Arma it shouldn't change its core to step down otherwise that opens the flood gates to all types of unwarranted crap it doesn't need and can be catered for via mods (the sandbox part).

The fine line and double edged sword of opening it up to this and then getting requests that seem more "larger audience" catered features which then stick it partially in the same functionality as "the rest of them".

In regards to people using the alpha and having no clue, thats up to BI to include that training scenarios in the alpha, if not, its a 3rd generation milsim in alpha state, so you just have to tread that linear learning curve like we all did (and never hated it since or bought another game out of frustration). To me, those that stick around and dont just drop kick it as its not *compare to others* simple may as well stick with the others, as thats probably what they thought it might be or like more anyway, whoever is left will be in for life no doubt.

Edited by mrcash2009

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Reading this thread and seeing the word Syndrome mentioned so many times is actually giving me the syndrome, syndrome. Look the word has been mentioned three times in one short sentence! Help me please!!;);)

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Reading this thread and seeing the word Syndrome mentioned so many times is actually giving me the syndrome, syndrome. Look the word has been mentioned three times in one short sentence! Help me please!!;);)

You do see the irony that the inflicted of this topic syndrome needs it mentioned often as they meander from the topic....

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From my POV, one can't expect new player to the series just hop in and expect them to play uber tactical without any ingame helpers as that would frustrate them even more because as it is, many have apparently no clue what to do as it is.

Dunno. OFP CWC - much less helpers (no unlimited saves, perma-aiming deadzone, convoluted movement, no AI diff sliders), only great mission design. 2 mil copies sold. For a 2001 game exclusive to PC that's a great success. Something no ArmA game can beat still unless you will count A2 with DayZ sales which won't be exactly fair.

They should learn the game through great captivating SP campaign design, most just skip tutorials and jump into the game and behave all clueless even with helpers because tutorials are boring.

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You do see the irony that the inflicted of this topic syndrome needs it mentioned often as they meander from the topic....

Is it a real disease? Is there medication i can take to rid me of this sy*****e? I don't want say the word again, sorry. I need to see a therapist I think;);)

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I guess my question would be.. why in the hell is there the giant red circle when you go into your map no matter what the difficulty is.. and why the hell are there grid coordinates on the map crosshair? Is it because people don't know how to read a map in game?

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I guess my question would be.. why in the hell is there the giant red circle when you go into your map no matter what the difficulty is.. and why the hell are there grid coordinates on the map crosshair? Is it because people don't know how to read a map in game?

Because these are the type of additions that you do to a military sandbox to make sure you aren't dumbing it down any....

---------- Post added at 11:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 AM ----------

Is it a real disease? Is there medication i can take to rid me of this sy*****e? I don't want say the word again, sorry. I need to see a therapist I think;);)

Unfortunately no there isn't any inoculations for a cure. The only cure known to work is regular belittling and sarcasm but frustratingly so there are fewer and fewer places where such a cure can be administered.

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