ARMA III & Steam WORKSHOP

[Binkowski 25]

His actions would mean I lose the right to protect my hard work and IP. And if that happens I wont be releasing much new content. Nor, I imagine will a number of other teams. Not publicly anyway.

This is true for me.

[dayglow 2]

No I can't as I've previously said: "In fairness I have no idea if Valve have ever exploited user uploaded content in that way but we're talking about possibilities here".

However, just like this community the threads that make a lot of these claims seem to vanish pretty quickly which makes posting "proof" difficult. I guess you'd have to talk to Valve's legal team, but i suspect you'd get the "we don't discuss legal issues in public".

A couple of my friends are Skyrim addicts, they are always talking about X made Y that's now in game etc... its all hearsay I admit but it seems to happen often enough to make you wonder doesn't it. Which is why I've previously said :"And if the Skyrim community are to be believed ...". Go have a root through the Skyrim communities. There lots of people that are just as concerned or disgruntled by other users "nicking" content and "uploading out work". Talk to some of the big mod teams and ask them why they choose not to use Steam Workshop. The responses I got when i asked around were largely centered around the license. For new actual content makers its enough of a concern to have a visible trend away from Workshop to sites like Nexus etc.

Regardless of whether Valve has ever used user created content like this, the license allows them to do so if they wish. So I won't use Workshop under that licence. And I think others should be aware of exactly what using that licence really means to their rights. Regardless of the demands of users who do not actually make anything.

Reading the Valve EULA I see it as a document to protect themselves really. It prevents mod maker x from making the claim that Valve owes them money because their ip has been used by users in game y. A mod maker could claim that their mod has been downloaded x number of times and the popularity of the mod has boosted sales for the game. No point in going after a community web space like Armaholic because there would be no money in it, but Valve has deep pockets and harassment suites would have a much better chance of success. The EULA is there as protection against this.

If anything Valve has shown if you make an amazing mod you have a chance of breaking into the game industry and make a career out of it.

[Shatter3D_S0uL 1]

I guess it will be supported at launch.Because ARMA 3 is a Steam exclusive title it will take advantage of all Steam features (if not all,then the most of them).It can work out like skyrim which has both the workshop and nexus site for it's mod,so ARMA 3 can have both Steam workshop and armaholic.

[rksl-rock 1300]

Reading the Valve EULA I see it as a document to protect themselves really. It prevents mod maker x from making the claim that Valve owes them money because their ip has been used by users in game y. A mod maker could claim that their mod has been downloaded x number of times and the popularity of the mod has boosted sales for the game. No point in going after a community web space like Armaholic because there would be no money in it, but Valve has deep pockets and harassment suites would have a much better chance of success. The EULA is there as protection against this.

Oh it certainly is about self-protection. But under that licence I have to hand over all my rights to them first... Not going to happen I promise you. ;)

If anything Valve has shown if you make an amazing mod you have a chance of breaking into the game industry and make a career out of it.

Arguably I've been doing that for the last 10 years... Flight Sim, X-Plane, VBS2, various other simulations too. It does happen, a number of people in this community now work for BIS and BISim on the games and military sim side of things. Modding is a great shop window for your talents if you are that way inclined.

[AmmokK 1]

Thx again for the answer.

I do get your ideas of getting discredit to some point, i do for sure. (I once wrote a guide to something i can´t talk about here, that took me several days to work on. A few weeks later i saw that same guide on a site, without credits or at least some "stolen from ..." thing. Guess if i take that and multiply it by 100 i will be where you are now).

Also, as you realised, i AM pretty new to ArmA, at least to the modding part that is. Didn´t realise there were so many private releases. So far i am looking in about 2-3 other sites about ArmA modding and well, they all offer the same thing anyway (with maybe a day or two delay).

Sure can´t talk for anybody else, but if i would make some mods, i would want everybody to have them and feel cool if i came to a server having my mods running. Then again... yeah, no credit sucks. Got to admit that.

But i guess there isn´t anyone/any site that can prevent you from that, after all. I can still download it from any non-steam site and upload it to steam if i wanted to.

After all, if someone wants to be a dickhead, he/she can. There is always a way.

Yet i hope you agree when i say that it would be nice to have one site where all mods unite. It would be perfect. Even for the modders. Have you ever contacted them about their license directly? Or are there maybe other site like eg. the nexusmods.com or something like that where most modders unite? I mean, if it isn´t steam but some other place, i personally wouldn´t mind much. But for now there seem to be many places and nothing really "big". And something as comfortable as an autoinstall to folder hasn´t come to my sight neither. Then again, i am new and have no idea - yet! ^^

[rksl-rock 1300]

Thx again for the answer.

I do get your ideas of getting discredit to some point, i do for sure. (I once wrote a guide to something i can´t talk about here, that took me several days to work on. A few weeks later i saw that same guide on a site, without credits or at least some "stolen from ..." thing. Guess if i take that and multiply it by 100 i will be where you are now).

It just takes away all your enthusiasm when that happens and its just not a good thing for any community.

But i guess there isn´t anyone/any site that can prevent you from that, after all. I can still download it from any non-steam site and upload it to steam if i wanted to.

No there isnt a way to stop every dickhead out there but thats no reason not to stand up for your rights is it.

Yet i hope you agree when i say that it would be nice to have one site where all mods unite. It would be perfect. Even for the modders. Have you ever contacted them about their license directly? Or are there maybe other site like eg. the nexusmods.com or something like that where most modders unite? I mean, if it isn´t steam but some other place, i personally wouldn´t mind much. But for now there seem to be many places and nothing really "big". And something as comfortable as an autoinstall to folder hasn´t come to my sight neither. Then again, i am new and have no idea - yet! ^^

Oh I wish there was an easy one click solution built directly into the game that satisfied everyone's needs. If Workshop was going to be the answer to that and I didn't have to sign my rights away to use it I'd probably be very interested in it. But there are just too many negatives for me right now to get behind it.

And as far as I know Workshop isnt going to solve the age old problem of joining MP servers running custom Mod packs. To me it seems Workshop is only half a solution anyway. I had hoped BIS were going to re-write the server code so it could read an XML file in each mod folder and direct each user to download the content packs either manually or automatically form local or remote repositories eg: Mod websites or ArmAholic etc. But we'll have to wait and see what happens i've read they are still writing the server code anyway.

Edited March 15, 2013 by RKSL-Rock
spelling

[AmmokK 1]

Direct download of all files needed by a server to play there would indeed be the perfect solution to a lot of things. Let´s hope for that.

[chortles 263]

There are plenty of Steamworks games without Steam Workshop that still support modding, no reason that Arma 3 would not be one of them (as has pretty indisputably been proven).

[LordJarhead 1721]

Aside from being a friend of Foxhound I have no affiliation with Armaholic at all. The opinions expressed in that post are solely my own and no one else's.

Thank you. I'm blushing. Honestly I am.

My comment covers a few different scenarios:

1. Someone "steals" content from a community made addon for use in their own mod and uploads it to Steam Workshop as their own work.
   
2. Someone collects a group of addons together (without editing them) and uploads 'his collection' to Steam Workshop
   
3. Someone steals models from another commercial game (COD/MOH etc) and uploads it to Steam Workshop as their own work.
   

There are other options but this is just to illustrate the point.

Once they upload anything to Steam under that agreement they are giving Valve the right to do whatever they want with that content. Models, textures scripts etc. It could all be used in any way they chose to. Theoretically, models etc made by this community could be used in a Valve commercial product without our consent*.

(* In fairness I have no idea if Valve have ever exploited user uploaded content in that way but we're talking about possibilities here)

The actual author has no control over how it's used. The uploader does not have the legal rights to agree to the licence on behalf of the actual author. So one day the author may wake up to find a model he spent hundreds of hours making used in a game he's never even owned. He receives no credit or compensation for his work.

Does anyone here think that's fair or right?

Personally I wont ever upload anything to Steam Workshop under that licence and I will fight tooth and nail to get any of my content put there by anyone taken down.

But thats just me.

People should read the license first but very few do. And if they do, I wonder how many really understand what it actually means.

EDIT -

Anyone that creates a model, texture or script owns it. That only changes if part of it is made from something owned by someone else.

The majority of addons only reference Bohemia's content. As per the licence agree that comes with the BIS Tools and the statement made by BIS about addon ownership we own everything we make.

There are exceptions but most of them are covered by other licences. eg sample models etc.

As for credit being enough... well when a proper high spec model sells for anywhere between $600 - $7000+ a time then and the game/sim makers charge double or triple that. Wouldn't you feel a bit put out if all your hard work was being sold off?

You know you would.

THIS! You honestly said out of my soul mate! I'm so sad about this whole Steam thing lately, but well, the majority of paying customers if bigger than we, the minority^^ Still, totally agree to this one!

Steam workshop allows auto update so anytime the author have an update, it can be automatically pushed to the user without requiring the user to manually check back a site for updates

Steam workshop is free too.

Oh, Armaholic is not for free? It is also, as well as it shows updates of mods, news or what ever.

Also we have SixUpdater which also updates your mods all the time if you want it to. Just saying mate :)

I dont need Steam to do so. People are just getting flashed and lazy by this easy-to-use-press-one-button-social-connected-bullshit all over the net by now... There was NO ONE ever thinking something like "Damn, we need Steam Workshop to keep track of the mods and stuff" while playing ArmA2, right? It worked too. FOR YEARS!

LJ

[johncage 30]

are people really this lazy they can't go to armaholic or come here to download a file and install it? they have to rely on steam for everything? you do that long enough and you'll become dependent on services like steam. i don't ever want to help steam make an idiocracy out of the game industry.

[XRey360 1]

If it will support the SteamWorks would be awesome, I'm sure the game would rise at the level of gmod XD

[johncage 30]

yes, the level of awesomeness that is this:

http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1161702

[LordJarhead 1721]

yes, the level of awesomeness that is this:

http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1161702

Seeing this makes me shiver all over my body! "Dark was the future I saw"

LJ

[dayglow 2]

are people really this lazy they can't go to armaholic or come here to download a file and install it? they have to rely on steam for everything? you do that long enough and you'll become dependent on services like steam. i don't ever want to help steam make an idiocracy out of the game industry.

How is it lazy to want a mod service that keeps everything up to date every time you launch?

I played a lot of Arma with a group of vets that in their words, 'don't want to spend a lot of time fucking around configuring a game.'

The problem is the constant mismatch of files because different people downloaded different versions of the same mod. We got things sorted, but we had very small mod list because it was a headache to make sure everyone had the same version of 20+ mods

Steam workshop would make it easier. We could create a single collection that everyone can click on and have all the right mods always up to date to play.

A lot of people just want to play. Fiddling around with their computer and software isn't their idea of a good time.

[Fuse 1]

i don't ever want to help steam make an idiocracy out of the game industry.

I'm afraid we're already terribly close to that. The Steam community reminds me more of stinkholes like Reddit, 4Chan, and Something Aweful every day. "Want trade hats 4 me?!" "Upboat plx!" :mad:

[chortles 263]

I'm afraid we're already terribly close to that. The Steam community reminds me more of stinkholes like Reddit, 4Chan, and Something Aweful every day. "Want trade hats 4 me?!" "Upboat plx!" :mad:

Bah, COD already did more for "gaming idiocracy" than Steam ever could. :p

[nodunit 397]

gmod

No thanks, the majority of stolen assets makes its way into gmod, much of the time without permission.

We don't need that sense of self entitlment, mistaken "robinhood" esque attitude around here.

http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1076020

If there is one thing that disgusts me it is the mentality of "hey lets rip something from another game to get a higher quality something!" rather than someone creating it anew themselves.

http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1009188

The game above explicitly states that you will not duplicate and redistribute..but who gives a fuck about any TOS or agreements between users and companies, much less respect for other peoples work whatsoever when we can have what we want when we want it right?

All that said, I am glad to see that people in the steam community are so vocal against thieves, wish so many weren't Russian and casting a bad stereotype..

As xenophobic and "backwards" as this is going to sound, I'd rather not even give people the benefit of the doubt or opportunity to upload so much stolent content to the steam workshop for arma 3.

It would open far too many doors for this kind of behaviour and would waste so much time to sift through it all and call for bans..it's best to just not let the cycle begin in the first place. Snuff the flame before it flares up.

We'd be willingly going through that same shit when we could spend it doing other things, maybe being productive and creating things of our own.

Edited March 16, 2013 by NodUnit

[Zickefoose 1]

No I can't as I've previously said: "In fairness I have no idea if Valve have ever exploited user uploaded content in that way but we're talking about possibilities here".

However, just like this community the threads that make a lot of these claims seem to vanish pretty quickly which makes posting "proof" difficult. I guess you'd have to talk to Valve's legal team, but i suspect you'd get the "we don't discuss legal issues in public".

A couple of my friends are Skyrim addicts, they are always talking about X made Y that's now in game etc... its all hearsay I admit but it seems to happen often enough to make you wonder doesn't it. Which is why I've previously said :"And if the Skyrim community are to be believed ...". Go have a root through the Skyrim communities. There lots of people that are just as concerned or disgruntled by other users "nicking" content and "uploading out work". Talk to some of the big mod teams and ask them why they choose not to use Steam Workshop. The responses I got when i asked around were largely centered around the license. For new actual content makers its enough of a concern to have a visible trend away from Workshop to sites like Nexus etc.

Regardless of whether Valve has ever used user created content like this, the license allows them to do so if they wish. So I won't use Workshop under that licence. And I think others should be aware of exactly what using that licence really means to their rights. Regardless of the demands of users who do not actually make anything.

But, I believe your misunderstanding the USE of the license. The license is there to PROTECT them from the very thing your arguing. That people will be posting stuff that they never made. So upon doing so, you MUST agree that they can now do whatever they wish with that data. Whether it means its stolen and they remove it, or whatever the case my be. If such a license was not in place I believe they would always have legal issues about this. However, they likely have no legal issues due to this... for the very REASON of that license agreement. I just believe it to be more of an Anti-Steam sentiment than a license agreement. Have you not read some of the agreements out there for software!? Yet, you likely still use them. BUT, dont get me wrong. I hated Steam at one time too. Until I gave it a chance, now there is no other one stop shop for your internet gaming needs.

FYI, steam DOES remove copyright material. If you 'own' it, you can get it removed. Has happened to several Total War mods ive used before. Eitherway, a workshop will ONLY expand our modding potential/community. Armaholic traffic will surely suffer for this, of course. But, obviously they still have there fanboys that will likely avoid the one click mod install button and opt for surfing the web. More power to them. But 'WHEN' we get a Workshop for Arma, it will be AWESOME :)

[rksl-rock 1300]

But, I believe your misunderstanding the USE of the license. The license is there to PROTECT them from the very thing your arguing. That people will be posting stuff that they never made. So upon doing so, you MUST agree that they can now do whatever they wish with that data. Whether it means its stolen and they remove it, or whatever the case my be. If such a license was not in place I believe they would always have legal issues about this. However, they likely have no legal issues due to this... for the very REASON of that license agreement.

But I know you still don't get it. To protect them I have to give them all my rights to use my IP. Sorry but thats wrong. Other content distribution services don't demand that in their licenses so why must Valve 'demand' rights to modify and exploit my content when others don't?

I just believe it to be more of an Anti-Steam sentiment than a license agreement. Have you not read some of the agreements out there for software!? Yet, you likely still use them. BUT, dont get me wrong. I hated Steam at one time too. Until I gave it a chance, now there is no other one stop shop for your internet gaming needs.

Believe what you like. My issue with steam isnt that i hate it. Its that it doesn't run properly for me. I havent been able to run any game on steam for the last 4 days since i updated my client I have a support ticket in for that. Thier current solution is un-install the clients and games and re-download. I have an incredibly poor net connection in my home and Steam and other always-on-services present a huge problem for me. The fix for me to get stable internet access requires that I VPN from a tethered mobile or 3G dongle into my office 20 miles away to be able to download and update my client. Steam's frequent patches and updates mean that often when I want to play i have to wait for 2-3 hours for the download to complete. ArmA3 Alpha took 46 hours to download at home. And about 3 in my office. And dont get me started on the "you can play offline" bit. I've NEVER managed to get any Steam game to play offline.

Steam isnt a practical solution for me.

FYI, steam DOES remove copyright material. If you 'own' it, you can get it removed. Has happened to several Total War mods ive used before.

Ah yes, they do if the offender doesnt also claim to own it. I've been talking to a few others with "Steam experiences" the system does work if you can prove the other person is lying...

Eitherway, a workshop will ONLY expand our modding potential/community. Armaholic traffic will surely suffer for this, of course. But, obviously they still have there fanboys that will likely avoid the one click mod install button and opt for surfing the web. More power to them. But 'WHEN' we get a Workshop for Arma, it will be AWESOME :)

Ah you just lost your credibility with me on that last statement. You've just shown yourself to be "A workshop fanboy" :) Not someone that's actually willing to see "my" side even for a second. I'm sure you've marked me as "a Steam hater" or "ArmAholic fanboy" or what ever. If Steam ever worked properly as advertised for me I wouldn't have an issue with Steam. If Workshop didnt represent a threat to my IP i'd probably be interested in using it. But right now Steam doesnt work properly and Workshop and that licence is just another way for someone to "steal" my IP and rights away from me. And 'IF' we get a Workshop for ArmA I wont allow any content I make to be uploaded on it. And I will make damn sure that anyone that uploads my stuff without my consent gets their account banned for theft. :)

But you've missed another large issue in the debate. Something that has only been skimmed lightly over; "Will Workshop be a solution to the issue of Joining MP server running mod packs?" I've not seen anything to say it would even address that. Nor have i ever seen any confirmation that BIS will use "Workshop". I guess both questions will be answered eventually.

[dayglow 2]

To be fair there isn't a lot of money in sueing Armaholic or TES Nexus, but Valve does have a lot so a mod maker could realistically file a harassment suite against Valve for 'allowing' their ip to be used in their game.

Also it would be just as easy for Valve to rip off your work if you upload it to Armaholic if that's what they are really inclined to do. This idea is as grounded in reality as the fear that Valve will take content out of the workshop.

[rksl-rock 1300]

Also it would be just as easy for Valve to rip off your work if you upload it to Armaholic if that's what they are really inclined to do. This idea is as grounded in reality as the fear that Valve will take content out of the workshop.

Yes they could rip-off anyones work but they would/could get sued. BUT if someone uploads their/your work to Workshop under that licence then the chances of successfully sueing them are so low as to be non-existant. The moment you/they clicked "I agree" and you have no recourse. They have all the rights to do what ever they choose with your work if they want to.

[k3lt 3]

All i see in this entire thread are speculations, without any facts whatsoever.

And again:

"In fairness I have no idea if Valve have ever exploited user uploaded content in that way but we're talking about possibilities here".

[rksl-rock 1300]

All i see in this entire thread are speculations, without any facts whatsoever.

And again:

And again we're talking about possibilities.

Just as you haven't contributed any valid position to the debate either. Sitting on the sidelines throwing stones as you are isnt helping either side. ;)

[k3lt 3]

And again we're talking about possibilities.

Just as you haven't contributed any valid position to the debate either. Sitting on the sidelines throwing stones as you are isnt helping either side. ;)

Then tell BIS you're not allowing to use your mods in Steam and they will take care of it, discussion over and we can have Steam Workshop without your mods.

Problem?

The discussion is pointless, as you're constantly accusing Steam about possibilities of stealing mods even they have never done it before, how can you even discuss that?

Everything based on speculations, "possibilities", and false accusations.

Edited March 17, 2013 by k3lt

[rksl-rock 1300]

Then tell BIS you're not allowing to use your mods in Steam and they will take care of it, discussion over and we can have Steam Workshop without your mods.

Problem?

LOL yeah you are forgetting that BIS don't own Steam, Valve or Workshop and its not their agreement we would have to "sign" to use Workshop.

The discussion is pointless, as you're constantly accusing Steam about possibilities of stealing mods even they have never done it before, how can you even discuss that?

As is your constant wish for the discussion to end. What are you afraid of?