6.5 mm and recoil management in game

[Terminal_Boy 10]

Not to mention this is 2035, we'd have recoil pretty much figured out by then (if not already)

[scotty] Ye cannae change the laws o' physics! [/scotty]

[EDcase 87]

I'd also like to see the vertical recoil (and weapon sway) reduced a bit especially as the stances get lower.

At the moment the recoil is the same crouched as it is standing which is not right.

A bit more back kick animation would make the weapons feel more powerful.

Any weapon with a bipod should be considered deployed when prone.

Currently it feels like I'm guiding a drunk avatar who doesn't know how to hold a weapon properly.

Edited March 18, 2013 by EDcase

[Smurf 12]

I'd also like to see the vertical recoil (and weapon sway) reduced a bit especially as the stances get lower.

At the moment the recoil is the same crouched as it is standing which is not right.

Don't think so. With crouch and specially the sitting stance, recoil is manageable.

But while standing, can't follow a target. Single shots are almost as useless as full auto in medium\long distances.

Anyway, as an Alpha I expect it to be greatly reduced. What bother me is the fact that recoil only appears to happen in one axle, just up.

[-Coulum- 35]

No, I am not. However, constantly having to drag down your mouse to ensure that a longer burst (as in 5-6 shots) to not cause the 10kg weapon to fly up in the air, dragging the entire upper body of the shooter with it, is what I would call simulated manhandling. Seriously, my mouse pad isn't even big enough for me to actually be able to control the recoil from a 6 shot burst with an LMG without actually lifting my mouse and replacing it at the top of the mousepad. And that's the recoil when lying down.

Haha I don't find dragging the mouse to be that much of a problem. What system would you suggest to better "simulate" the recoil though?

And people can talk about "BIS wants you to be responsible for accuracy, etc." but it's not the same. IRL it's about how you hold the weapon, and any trained soldier will be properly trained at that. It's not about countering the recoil by pulling your weapon down.

Yes I understand that and I am pretty positive many others who like the recoil understand that. But how we hold our weapon and postiion ourselves while firing simply cannot be simulated. Pulling down the mouse is not realistic, but then again simply clicking and having the recoil handled for you isn't either. What we have to come to terms with is that there is no real way to really simulate recoil management in game. Therefore abstractions must be made. Pulling down the mouse isn't supposed to directly represent you pulling down the weapon in real life. It is merely to abstract the fact that there is some concentration involved in shooting, much more than is required to point and click a mouse.

I watched carefully your video, but with all due respect, it's not revelant.

You single shot either case (and btw, that demonstrates brilliantly the excessive muzzle climb with no weight account) so the recoil model doesn't apply in that case.

For testing purpose, engage one mobile enemy at 30-40 meters by firing full auto (keep trigger pressed) and restart engaging him by rapid single shot fire (150-300 RPM)

In full auto, the muzzle climb elevation is lowered proportionally with the rate of fire in my observation (I could make a video).

With lower ROF, the elevation must mandatory be compensated with mouse, which is quite hard if fire is delivered in rapid succession. So the result is a complete mess, considering you fire discipline should have given the exact opposite.

Okay I think I understand what you mean. I initially thought that you claimed that shooting a single shot in auto would result in less recoil than a single shot in semi. But what you actually saying is that firing rapidly with semi will not result in the same recoil as firing rapidly with auto. Correct? So a better way to test would be to fire rapidly in semi and compare with the recoil produced while firing rapidly in auto. You may have a case. But this might actually be a feature. I don't know I gotta test this. Thanks for elaborating.

Tactics and teamwork should win the battle, not mastering the recoil mouse mini-game.

I agree but honestly there is more need for tactics and teamwork now than there was with arma 2 recoil...

[Levinin 1]

The problem I have with the argument that the only way to simulate recoil management is to make it hard to manage is that all the stances are simulated at a button press, as are a large number of other things, and stance is a large part of recoil management.

The point is - why make recoil in particular so hard, and so much harder than IRL? Why isn't running simulated more closely for instance? Maybe we should have to tap the z and x keys to take steps in the game? Why should the game decide when the left foot moves?

At the end of the day, if recoil on modern rifles was still like on an SLR then fine I could understand such a vicious movement. Auto was taken off them even for the military because it was too hard for soldiers to control. But with modern weapons it's just not true that it's really hard to have a weapon on full auto and control it after not much training at all. I'm pretty sure I've spent longer learning to manage recoil in this game (and I'm a long way from success) than soldiers take IRL to manage it with their SA80s or M16s.

[Inimical_rize 1]

I've used 5.56 A.R's up to 7.62 A.R's and 6.5's, Recoil is no where near how the game depicts it. 6.5 is used for it's balance between handling and killing. But alignment time between rounds in reality takes no where near as long compared to the game.

That being said clearly with the way the weapon is attached to the skeleton (personally i think it's wrong) poses a large problem and the non 'soft tissue' the weapon has to manipulate on recoil.

[dayglow 2]

Maybe the game should take into consideration player movement speed into the recoil management. If you are stationary or moving in a smooth tatical motion then recoil is better absorbed by your avatar. If you quickly fire after a large fast movement such as spinning around then the game increases the recoil spill over as it were.

This way smooth tatical movement would be rewarded by quicker, more accurate follow up shots while a run and gunner who is constantly doing 'gamely' movement such as side to side staffing would have much more perceived recoil to manage. You just have to make it so that moving and shooting at a realistic pace isn't penalized.

[scrim 1]

Yes I understand that and I am pretty positive many others who like the recoil understand that. But how we hold our weapon and postiion ourselves while firing simply cannot be simulated. Pulling down the mouse is not realistic, but then again simply clicking and having the recoil handled for you isn't either. What we have to come to terms with is that there is no real way to really simulate recoil management in game. Therefore abstractions must be made. Pulling down the mouse isn't supposed to directly represent you pulling down the weapon in real life. It is merely to abstract the fact that there is some concentration involved in shooting, much more than is required to point and click a mouse.

Well, the character you play as is automatically fit and well trained. I'd say the same thing applies there, i.e. "if you can't simulate it even remotely well, don't bother." In this case, I'd rather have the game assume the soldier I'm playing as can deal with recoil. Oh well, if the devs don't fix it, I'm pretty sure the ACE guys will when they come over to Arma 3.

[max power 21]

I don't see why spraying isn't a valid tactic, especially in CQB / urban fighting.

My only beef is that the Mk200 has wild, insane recoil that makes it only useful as a marksman rifle over medium distances. With both the MX and Katiba I can put controlled burst of 3-4 rounds into a roughly man-sized circle but the Mk200 just bounces all over my screen. Why should a LMG have significantly more recoil than a Carbine?

Less weight over all and less weight up front.

[squishall 10]

As a 25yr. Infantryman with a good 10 of those years as a Rifle Company shooting instructor I can confidently say that the current modelling of muzzle rise (notice I didn't say recoil) in Arma 3 is wrong. By the way, it is also poorly done in Arma2 ACE.

Note that I have not fired any of the A3 weapons myself in real life.

We need to assume that the variables that go into shooting any firearm are equal across the board for each soldier in game. These variables are such things as strength, eyesight, training, experience, fitness, etc.

Calibre of round makes very little difference in muzzle rise because (in simple terms) the weapon itself is designed to compensate for the increased power as the calibre goes up. Things such as barrell weight, receiver operating mechanism, position of furniture (forestock, pistol grip, etc.), and many others.

In the prone position, wth a rifle, firing single rounds, and holding the weapon properly (which we assume is being done by the game soldier) the weapon will rise straight up and come back down into the same sight picture. The muzzle does not go up and to the right and stay there as it currently does in game. The amount of rise is of little significance in this case; however, I would cut it in half of what it currently is.

In the kneeling position unsupported, single round, the muzzle will rise and move slightly to the right but then it will come back down into, relatively, the same sight picture. Once again, in game it is too drastic and needs to be lessened in terms of how much it moves horizontally as well as vertically.

In the standing position unsupported, single rounds, the current model is not far off. I could live with it; however, the muzzle will come back down into a very loose ( may be off to the right and a little high) original sight picture.

I am not even going to talk about firing a rifle in automatic mode as, even in the prone position, hitting anything greater than 50 metres away is difficult at best. In fact we rarely if ever trained to fire from greater than 25 or 50 metres distance. At that range you need to aim at the lower left (in sitting, kneeling and standing position) of a man size target to have any chance of more than the first round making contact. Automatic fire is an option on modern rifles to be used in house clearing or short range firefights (such as counter-ambush) where amount of lead down range is more important for suppression than accuracy.

In regard to LMGs, MMGs, and the like, with bipod being used, and firing from the prone position the weapon comes straight back and does not rise in any significant way. The sight picture vibrates for obvious reasons but that is all. I also must add that firing one of these MGs from anything but the prone position or supported in other positions is a waste of ammo. Only Arnie Swartzeneggar (?) could possible hold one of these up for any period of time while firing auto to be of any use.

[chortles 263]

As a 25yr. Infantryman with a good 10 of those years as a Rifle Company shooting instructor I can confidently say that the current modelling of muzzle rise (notice I didn't say recoil) in Arma 3 is wrong. By the way, it is also poorly done in Arma2 ACE.

I remember a story about ACE2 "recoil"/muzzle rise having to be lowered when veterans weighed in that ACE2 was actually unrealistic... kind of nice to see someone lending weight to that story. :D

squishall, I'd recommend you to weigh in on a recoil ticket over on the feedback tracker with your experience, though I would note that the MX rifle series is outright fictional (the "caseless" bit means that the caliber in-game may be inspired by but isn't 6.5mm Grendel).

[squishall 10]

Chortles.....I have posted this same info on the feedback tracker. I also did a follow up concerning the recoil to muzzle rise relationship but the feedback forum seems to be down. When it comes back on line I will copy and paste what I explained there on these forums. Unfortunately, I find that the feedback gets so watered down. I am not sure if the actual developers wade through the BS to find stuff that can be used to improve the Arma experience.

I feel that the current muzzle rise issue will turn people off. Even those that say it is what they want. Once you are in a firefight the idea of proper weapon hold is so that after that first and subsequent rounds in semi-auto fire you do not lose sight of your target (especially when looking through optics). With the muzzle rise the way it is now you def lose sight. Once you lose sight you are dead. In real life I don't have to consciously pull my weapon back down and you should not have to do that with your mouse in Arma.

[chortles 263]

Unfortunately, I find that the feedback gets so watered down. I am not sure if the actual developers wade through the BS to find stuff that can be used to improve the Arma experience.

Truthbetold in BI's position I would have not allowed "suggestions" to be part of the feedback tracker, that only gave even more room for "noise" to have to filter through.

[Guess Who 10]

As a 25yr. Infantryman with a good 10 of those years as a Rifle Company shooting instructor I can confidently say that the current modelling of muzzle rise (notice I didn't say recoil) in Arma 3 is wrong. By the way, it is also poorly done in Arma2 ACE.

[...]

Thanx squishall for making the point from a professionals point of view. Considering that those discussions are going on since the implementation of the "new and better" recoil system in that 1.58 patch of Arma2:OA (or was it 1.59?) maybe BIS will listen and revise this for Arma 3. I for one don't like mini games like fighting an overly complicated reload procedure nor my mouse for the recoil. Let's get back to a somewhat realistic recoil system so we can concentrate on tactical decisions.

[System98 10]

Thanx squishall for making the point from a professionals point of view. Considering that those discussions are going on since the implementation of the "new and better" recoil system in that 1.58 patch of Arma2:OA (or was it 1.59?) maybe BIS will listen and revise this for Arma 3. I for one don't like mini games like fighting an overly complicated reload procedure nor my mouse for the recoil. Let's get back to a somewhat realistic recoil system so we can concentrate on tactical decisions.

The more I think about it and the more I play the game, the more I do agree with the bolded statement. A reduction of the muzzle rise so the player doesn't have to constantly fight the game mechanics would be nice. In intense fights, it is really complicated to concentrate on pulling down the mouse correctly, aiming, calculating predicted fire etc. at once. It would be good to have the avatar to do most of that for the player so we can concentrate on the rest of the game. Be aware, I don't want some stupid auto-mode as those hollywod-like action shooters like MW have where you don't have to do anything. But I feel right now it is overdone in the game.

Maybe a mixture of both systems works, let me elaborate:

1. While shooting bursts/auto, you have to adjust the muzzle rise via pulling down the mouse to compensate the muzzle rise, but not as drasticlaly as now. In the crouched positions the weapon should be way steadier and not hop out of target that extremely. Bursts or auto fire from the standing position would still be very inaccurate as it should be.

2. After you stop shooting the avatar could automatically bring the weapon back to the aimed at area or at leats a tad down from the new position.

That way single shots would be easier to handle because the avatar would bring back the weapon for the player while spray & pray style shooting would still require the player to "control the weapon" during shooting. What do you guys think?

[jgbtl292 0]

recoil is ok - but that the weapon go in the sky and come not down , that not ok ! i have see , the ai can not handle this . suppression fire go higher and higher 10-20 m over the target after 10 15 rounds ( AI ). and i find it freaky that my weapon comes not down.

the only where i have this arma effect is shoting with an mg3 freehand in the stand endless autofire ...... and my mg come down after the fire to ...

sry bis, this is not a feature i hate this - this was come with a patch in arma arrowheat.

Edited March 19, 2013 by JgBtl292

[Nikoteen 24]

1. While shooting bursts/auto, you have to adjust the muzzle rise via pulling down the mouse to compensate the muzzle rise, but not as drasticlaly as now. In the crouched positions the weapon should be way steadier and not hop out of target that extremely. Bursts or auto fire from the standing position would still be very inaccurate as it should be.

2. After you stop shooting the avatar could automatically bring the weapon back to the aimed at area or at leats a tad down from the new position.

That way single shots would be easier to handle because the avatar would bring back the weapon for the player while spray & pray style shooting would still require the player to "control the weapon" during shooting. What do you guys think?

I think that's the way I used to shoot in ArmA 2...

[squishall 10]

This is the feedback about weapon rise that I posted at the A3 site. Just thought to repeat here for those that don not read the feedback stuff

."Let me see if I can explain this better. First, we are not talking recoil here. I wish people would stop calling it that. If you were to mount any rifle on a roller skate and pull the trigger the RECOIL will cause the roller skate to go straight back until the energy ran out. Recoil is straight back so were not talking about that.

What we are talking about is muzzle rise, barrel lift, or what ever you wish to call it. The reason the weapon rises up is because the butt of the weapon is in your shoulder and because your shoulder cannot absorb all of the recoil energy the remainder takes the path of least resistance which is upwards with butt as the pivot point. The reason the muzzle moves to the right (for right handed shooters and left for left handed shooters) is due to the rotation of the shoulders/upper body while in the kneeling, standing position. In the prone position (as long as your position is correct) the muzzle does not move to the right is because there is more body weight and back strength behind the weapon.

The reason the sight picture comes back to the original (or close to the original) is because when you hold a rifle properly (remember we are assuming the game soldiers are trained properly) your muscles are (for lack of a better word) locked into place. This locking has tremendous strength and resists allowing the weapon to move as much as they can. So when you fire they naturally, and without conscious effort by the shooter, bring the weapon back into its original position (or close to it).

I don't mean any offence to anyone but you do not have to consciously bring the weapon back into aim in RL and therefore you should not have to do it in a simulator like Arma.

Sorry, I wish I was a little more knowledgeable about the scientific aspects of Physics but there you have it in as simple terms as I can use."

[akm74 1]

tottaly agree with squishall

1. Set rifle to single fire

2. without touching mouse fire 30 time with 1 sec interval

You end up with your rifle pointing to the sky. This is not how it work in RL.

[twisted 127]

I Wont argue, but personally find the minor mouse adjustments to keeping the rifle on target quite acceptable and intuitive. Even when shooting on the range i never once had my rifle line itself up for me. User input is required in real life, so the minor amount needed here reflects that. If anything the movement might be a little snappier. I'd also like if a bit more horizontal variation was introduced as well.

And i must say that the amount sway is spot on. Boys got that right and is closer to a figure eight which helps simulate breathing and holding a weapon like a human not a machine.

[squishall 10]

I have fired thousands upon thousands of 7.62 as well as 5.56mm and the sight picture has always come back down into position when firing in semi-auto. If it does not do this then you are doing it wrong (positioning, holding, pulling trigger, and /or breathing) In regard to the sway it is also incorrect. I will post a more descriptive comment in another thread but the weapon goes up and down while breathing with some side to side movement and, once you hold your breath (in the prone position), it should be rock steady for a good 3 seconds before it will start to sway again as your muscles fatigue. Obviously, the stronger and fitter you are the longer you can hold it.

[Reuben5150 2]

tottaly agree with squishall

1. Set rifle to single fire

2. without touching mouse fire 30 time with 1 sec interval

You end up with your rifle pointing to the sky. This is not how it work in RL.

Really ? If that's true then it has to be altered without question.

---------- Post added at 23:24 ---------- Previous post was at 23:17 ----------

Just another thought, even though the weapon appears to be shouldered most of the time when moving around, should there be an accuracy penalty for not ADS ?

[jgbtl292 0]

the point is - i can not good shoot suppresion fire - i need the half table for bring my weapon back - 200 m and and i have the shoot on a spott from 10-20m or more . in the high this is terrible...... i press keys on my keybord , look for enemy , i turn , i make adjustments, and in the same time i need the half table for adjustment to a feature thats has not on see in the real live ? come on .....

sry in real life i need nothing for bring my weapons back .it makes automatic you trained for this !! you can made it for a civilan ai or a talbian ai or womans maby to. not for trained soldiers

and the second point is the ai cant handy this !! look in arma 3 ai where fired suppesion fire - the most fire go in the sky in the second autofire shoot. an he shot higher and higher .......... when he is not lying on the ground.

the weapons comes down after the fire in real thats all.

I don't get the discussion... is no realim on this feature. and the ai cant handle this. point ! or not ?

[-Coulum- 35]

I Wont argue, but personally find the minor mouse adjustments to keeping the rifle on target quite acceptable and intuitive. Even when shooting on the range i never once had my rifle line itself up for me. User input is required in real life, so the minor amount needed here reflects that.

Exactly. Dragging down the mouse is not realistic but it does make it so you are actually involved in shooting like you would be in real life.

In intense fights, it is really complicated to concentrate on pulling down the mouse correctly, aiming, calculating predicted fire etc. at once. It would be good to have the avatar to do most of that for the player so we can concentrate on the rest of the game.

i press keys on my keybord , look for enemy , i turn , i make adjustments, and in the same time i need the half table for adjustment to a feature thats has not on see in the real live ? come on .....

Damn you're right. pressing all those keys and doing all that stuff at the same time with virtual bullets flying over your head is complicated and rather chaotic... but do you think it is any easier in a real life firefight? Honestly do you think that pressing keys and pulling down a mouse compares to the difficulty of actually fighting? This is why I like the current recoil and sway. It makes up for the fact that sitting at a desk and clicking buttons is far to easy.

In the current system, if all your doing is shooting on a target range its pretty easy to "fight" the mechanics and hit the target... but when your fighting and there are many things to focus on, then things get messy - Just like I am sure they do in a firefight. Whether the recoil/muzzle rise mechanics right now are realistic doesn't matter to me much - what matters is that they make things play out more like in reality.

Maybe there is some way other than having to drag down the mouse to "control" the recoil that would be more realistic - but I think it is vital that there is some user input/involvement/concentration required in order to better control recoil. This is because this has a very good and realistic effect on how fights play out. It should not be automatically done by your avatar, unless BIS makes a VERY in depth system that takes into account all battlefield factors and makes them effect how well your character handles recoil - and even then I can see many people complaining because their character is spastic or doesn't handle recoil the way they want.

And i must say that the amount sway is spot on. Boys got that right and is closer to a figure eight which helps simulate breathing and holding a weapon like a human not a machine.

One of my favorite features of arma 3. It has an absolutely fantastic effect on gameplay.

[ak1287 1]

From a simulationist stand point, squishall is right; even in firefights, muscle memory will (hopefully) keep you more on target than the current system allows. That's one of the reasons we all train so much, in live fire drills. Granted, adrenalin will hinder that somewhat, but not nearly to that extent.

From a gamist viewpoint, I'd be more inclined to agree with Coulum; I like controlling recoil, since it keeps me engaged.

From there, it just depends on which you prefer. Modding, I think, gives the best of both worlds.