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Nikoteen

6.5 mm and recoil management in game

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...been saying since day 2 that recoil is overdone to the point that firefights against AI are no longer enoyable...too unbalanced (regardless of reality or not)...this was yet another feature they appear to have implemented for the PvP experience because as far as PvE it kills it.

...also weapon sway when kneeling needs to be toned down on those 12x scopes...way too eratic for PvE.

funny, but for the last year or so ive been seeing a gradual change in arma2 that made me wonder if BIS was thinking more and more about going the way of PvP. Of course I never really believed it but within the last 6 months or so the arma2 PvE gameplay has become so much more unbalanced than it used to be that I almost stopped playing for good (took quite a few months away anyway)...but decided to come back and hope that arma3 would have it's stuff in order for a much improved PvE enviroment.

While I like some of the things I see visually...I can't help but feel that the PvE concept is now dying in the minds over at BIS. I certainly hope not, but there has been too much time passed on ignored PvE issues at this point to think otherwise. Time will tell I suppose :-(

Yeah the Ai currently have a pretty big advantage over us because there aim is very good and they handle recoil far better. But remember, they aren't finished yet and will probably be balanced out with time. To me, the recoil for the player isn't too high, its the recoil for the ai that is too low. And sway is fine. The hold breathe feature allows you to get an accurate shot off, even with 12X scopes.

I read through this entire thread and though I have frequented these forums for quite some time I was compelled to reply to this thread. My issue with ARMA 3's recoil isn't even the recoil. Most shooters know that when you fire a weapon (single shot not full auto) there is always recoil. The shooter regains his sight picture not by pulling the weapon down but by allowing it to fall down via gravity. It's up to the shooter, via muscle memory, to stop the rifles decent. Check out ARMA 2 with ACE mod and fire the M14. It kicks hard but the gravity is simulated by your sight picture falling just short of your original spot. Then you adjust with the mouse. Now fire the EBR in ARMA 3. Its kicks just the same but just floats in air not effect by the force of gravity. You can keep the kick just let the rifle fall to relatively the same position like it was in ARMA 2 with ACE2. If you felt like the correction was to severe that is debatable but it still NEEDS to be there even if toned down. Oh yeah if you fire off rounds in game and say its there that is actually weapon sway. Keep firing single shots and on some the weapon will sway up making recoil seem even worse.

As for MG's... They are just plain awful. At 300m a modern day M249 or the higher caliber M240 can saw a target in half from the prone position going full auto. No bursts. There is ZERO muzzle climb for two reasons. One the weight of the gun pushes down and two the energy goes into the shoulder and is evenly dispersed throughout the soldiers body. It would be very silly to see an MG just lift off the ground. I think they should make the current prone recoil model the kneeling one and the kneeling one the standing one and throw the current standing numbers into the trash because NOTHING kicks that much.

I understand what people are saying and I get that this might make PVP gameplay more compelling but staying alive in PVP should be about cover, concealment, defilade, and tactics.

TL;DR

Shooting in ARMA 3 is harder then it is in real life. I think some tweaking should be done.

The problem is that some people find the opposite to be true. Many people can handle the recoil just fine ingame. You can't expect real life skills to transfer into the game. Whether using the current recoil or your suggested recoil someone will always be claiming that shooting in reality is easier or harder. I think the important question is, which is best for gameplay. I know in ACE 2, I could go prone empty a clip in full auto at a guy 300 metres away and when the smoke cleared usually he would be dead. In arma 3 that is no longer the case. I know which one I prefer...

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I think recoil is just a little bit too much, but it's way better then in Arma 2, I like it.

What I like even more is sway. It's brilliant.

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Actually I stopped playing the Alpha because of the recoil, it pisses me off to see my AI teammates and foes not experiencing recoil with their LMG and AR Full auto when I struggle to single shot at 200m, it so stupid.

Arma 2 had it better, Real life had it better...

If not corrected, I will wait for a mod.

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I noticed that every guns recoil are now lowered... Anybody else noticed this as well? I've managed to spray an LMG with an accurate grouping over 300m+. Did they just ninja'ed the update on steam? :confused:

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When you continuously fire, the recoil will force you aiming way to sky, but after stop firing you can't return to original position. It's very inconvenient that you have to move you mouse each time.

Can it automatic return to your original aiming position after you fire in the nest release version?

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that may be true of untrained or civilian/guerilla fighters, but trained professionals should never allow their guns to recoil into the sky. that's the whole point of the bent, low center of gravity stance they adopted for arma 3 shooting positions. they need to reduce the tendency of the weapon to go up and never come down. the weight of the weapon and how the body absorbs recoil should automatically allow the weapon to lower back to the original aimed position after firing.

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Honestly some people here like it because it means it require skill by the player to handle the recoil instead of by the avatar. For me personally, I have mixed feelings. I kinda like this recoil (introduced since one of A2 beta patches I think), on the other hand, I also like for it to return more or less where you aimed originally.

I've fired an M16A1, and I'm not really a good shot. But I can at least re-aimed at the target more or less. Still need some readjustment. Basically when I aimed and shot at the center of the target, after recoil my aim would usually be lower and left/right from the original aiming point, never really higher. Probably because of me trying to quickly re-acquire target or trying overcompensate the recoil. This is when standing unsuported position.

When prone, it usually goes to lower left almost everytime.

So I dont really know.... But since we have VBS2 style breathing (aiming sway when stationary instead of static like in ARMA 2) then I think it's probably better to return the aim at more or less (up/down/left/right) from original point of aim. Never exactly at the original point of aim.

I think there's a ticket somewhere at feedback tracker...

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More realism oriented games have been doing this for a long time. It's always worked well, IMHO. Just learn how to counter your recoil. You should never need to re-center your aim after firing. If you do that means you're firing faster than you can control and need to fire shorter bursts.

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Merged three recoil threads together, the search function works very well these days so there's really no excuse for there to be three active topics containing the word recoil in the title and being about recoil in the Alpha :)

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After playing a bit more, I think there is something strange going on with recoil right now. From my personal observations, I've had less recoil when sighted into a high magnification scope (RCO or ARCO) and firing multiple shots at higher ranges (~300-400m) than when using short range sights (ACO, HOLO, red dots on the RCO/ARCO) and taking single shots at close range (~15-30m). This has left me with a very strange sensation of being able to shoot more quickly and accurately at long range than when I am at shorter distances.

Occasionally I have found more success with just hip firing and following where the bullets land to adjust my aim than using the sights because of the recoil. The recoil is so high in short range that the jerk from the recoil in the sighted in view actually obstructs the target for far too long for me to be effective.

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In MP, I always use when available the MXM 7.62mm rifle, because it has less recoil than the MX 6.5mm series.

Test it by yourself : use the 7.62 rifle single shot and auto, it is more controlable with the same sight (dual mount).

More firepower and less recoil for a bigger round, way to go !! :rolleyes:

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The recoil is definitely too strong and makes close quarters shooting really hard when standing. At close quarters it should be possible to shoot full auto bursts and stay pretty much on target but it isn't, even with lighter weapons. And with guns like the

around now it's clear that the next generation of rifles will have far less recoil muzzle climb than they do now.

Similarly, having an LMG buck so much when using the bipod is just crazy. I'm not saying it should stay rock steady and put a mag through a playing card at 500 yards but no one has to fight their LMG that much while in prone. E.g. look at this guy

who has to hold it up rather than keep it down and
where the shooters are not having to fight the gun from kicking up like we see in game. Note especially the guy in prone doesn't see much movement at all. And of course there is the guy who is leaning the gun on something while standing. We need to be able to do this if recoil and sway is going to be so high when standing. Has anyone else tried using an LMG while in one of the towers in game? Can see the enemy but gun sway and recoil so high it's impossible to actually shoot them. Maybe proximity to a wall can steady the gun to simulate using it as a rest. That would help.

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I also think the recoil on some weapons is a bit off. I've shot over 50 different weapons from 9x19 mm to .50 BMG until today. Last year I've shot the AK-47 and AK-74 in full-auto and it was easy to control the recoil with the AK-74 in 5,45x45 mm. The AK-47 without a muzzle brake in 7,62x39 mm was a different story. It noticeably climbed and went a tad sideways which made it neccessary to shoot smaller burst instead of full-auto only. The 6,5x39 mm Grendel should have a bit less recoil than the heavier 7,62 mm bullet of the AK-47. Since all weapons in ArmA III Alpha with this caliber use a muzzle brake AFAIK, the recoil should be quite manageable. Yet, it's sometimes hard to hit a standing enemy soldier on 50 m if you stand yourself. I don't want 100% accuracy, but if the player uses a crouched stance, the accuracy should get noticeably better than it is now.

For example:

Full Standing - Accuracy like now with big recoil as player doesn't lean forward and it's ahrder to control the recoil that way

Standing, but leaning forward a bit (one stance lower IIRC) - recoil should get better, as the recoil will now be compensated a lot by the shooter leaning towards the rifle and the recoil will be absorbed by the shoulder region much better

Lower stances - the lower the stance, the easier should it be to control the recoil (like it is now already)

Right now recoil is good if you go prone and ok if you sit, but the standing stances have too little effect IMHO, especially the ducked ones where the character already leans forward noticeably.

Also the MK200 still has a brutal recoil if you go prone. It would be great, if the player could really "use" the bipod to make it more steady. Even in burst-mode, the first 1-2 bullets might be where you aimed, but the next 2+ will go waaaaay off. Just my 0.02 $. :)

Regards

Shad

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Too much recoil. Shooting feels smoother then in ArmA2 but the recoil is a bit overdone with 6.5mm guns.

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What I find hilarious about this thread is that people come with videos of gun enthusiasts / military personnel for argument saying "See, the weapon doesn't ever raise" ... Well no shit, that's because it's being expertly handled, ever seen an amateur handle a weapon? Can't control it in the slightest, the weapon raises skyward, he loses ground etc.

That's what I believe what BI is trying to re-enact here, you can't just go around and say "If my gun has too much recoil that means that my character is an amateur who doesn't know how to fire a weapon", no, that means that you can't pull your mouse down and correct your aim, not saying it can't go out with adjustments, it surely can, IMO the recoil while standing or kneeled is great, feels like the weapon packs a punch, but when prone the kick is way too slow, you fire a weapon and the kick is still going on .40 seconds later.

Not saying everyone is wrong, but these are some quite ridiculous arguments to bring to the table, I find the recoil fine except when prone and I agree that you should be able to mount your weapon on window shells or fences or deploy bipods on the ground for better stability.

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Except IRL you don't have to manhandle your 10kg LMG to keep it from flying up in the air when you fire a 3 round burst, even when standing up. Or your rifle when you fire it standing up. The current recoil would pretty much only be realistic if weapons would weigh 0.5-1kg.

It's called proper aiming techniques, you don't have to pull a rifle or even a LMG down when you stand up firing it IRL.

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What I find hilarious about this thread is that people come with videos of gun enthusiasts / military personnel for argument saying "See, the weapon doesn't ever raise" ... Well no shit, that's because it's being expertly handled, ever seen an amateur handle a weapon? Can't control it in the slightest, the weapon raises skyward, he loses ground etc.

That's what I believe what BI is trying to re-enact here, you can't just go around and say "If my gun has too much recoil that means that my character is an amateur who doesn't know how to fire a weapon", no, that means that you can't pull your mouse down and correct your aim, not saying it can't go out with adjustments, it surely can, IMO the recoil while standing or kneeled is great, feels like the weapon packs a punch, but when prone the kick is way too slow, you fire a weapon and the kick is still going on .40 seconds later.

Not saying everyone is wrong, but these are some quite ridiculous arguments to bring to the table, I find the recoil fine except when prone and I agree that you should be able to mount your weapon on window shells or fences or deploy bipods on the ground for better stability.

Yeah sure, and the lower recoil with bigger round with the current alpha doesn't mean its broken. It's a dev feature to make gameplay enjoyable....

Of course, full auto stay more in line than single shot fast fired, that is too, a feature :/

I don't even speak about absurd recoil for MX LMG (same rounds, about same ROF)

Damn, since late 2006 when I started with Arma generation, I never realized the recoil was wrong, Arma 3 Alpha opened my eyes ! /ironic

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The recoil to me just seems off. It's not as smooth, and more violent than it should be. Not like a "well it's recoil so it has to be violent" type of violent, I mean like the animations or the polish aren't quite finished. It's kinda hard to explain.

In any case, I agree that the 6.5 has simply too much recoil. Not by much, but it could be tweaked. As mentioned before, proper techniques employed for recoil management make a HUGE difference.

I agree.

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What I find hilarious about this thread is that people come with videos of gun enthusiasts / military personnel for argument saying "See, the weapon doesn't ever raise" ... Well no shit, that's because it's being expertly handled, ever seen an amateur handle a weapon? Can't control it in the slightest, the weapon raises skyward, he loses ground etc.

That's what I believe what BI is trying to re-enact here, you can't just go around and say "If my gun has too much recoil that means that my character is an amateur who doesn't know how to fire a weapon", no, that means that you can't pull your mouse down and correct your aim, not saying it can't go out with adjustments, it surely can, IMO the recoil while standing or kneeled is great, feels like the weapon packs a punch, but when prone the kick is way too slow, you fire a weapon and the kick is still going on .40 seconds later.

Not saying everyone is wrong, but these are some quite ridiculous arguments to bring to the table, I find the recoil fine except when prone and I agree that you should be able to mount your weapon on window shells or fences or deploy bipods on the ground for better stability.

It's not just being expert. The fact is that the guns don't jump up that much so that IRL experts have to do less work to keep on aim than in game experts. That's not simulation of real world physics it is just creating a whole new set of pretend physics to become expert at working in. This is supposed to simulate real world, so recoil should behave like real world recoil. Just now it doesn't. And clips can help illustrate that. Simple.

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In MP, I always use when available the MXM 7.62mm rifle, because it has less recoil than the MX 6.5mm series.

Test it by yourself : use the 7.62 rifle single shot and auto, it is more controlable with the same sight (dual mount).

I find that they handle the same in terms of recoil. Of course this is still a problem as they aren't the same. But I don't think the 6.5 should be decreased, but rather the 7.62 should be increased.

Similarly, having an LMG buck so much when using the bipod is just crazy. I'm not saying it should stay rock steady and put a mag through a playing card at 500 yards but no one has to fight their LMG that much while in prone.

Yes I agree that deployed LMG and other deployed weapons should have more stability - the question is, are these weapons actually deployed in game? There is no weapon resting/bipod system so saying that the LMG kicks too much for when being used on a bipod, well the problem might be that it is not actually deployed. We need a weapon resting feature very badly.

Full Standing - Accuracy like now with big recoil as playe.......

.......ally "use" the bipod to make it more steady. Even in burst-mode, the first 1-2 bullets might be where you aimed, but the next 2+ will go waaaaay off. Just my 0.02 $.

I agree that different stances should have more noticeable effects on recoil. crouched and standing are basically the same thing.

What I find hilarious about this thread is that people come with videos of gun enthusiasts / military personnel for argument saying "See, the weapon doesn't ever raise" ... Well no shit, that's because it's being expertly handled, ever seen an amateur handle a weapon? Can't control it in the slightest, the weapon raises skyward, he loses ground etc.

That's what I believe what BI is trying to re-enact here, you can't just go around and say "If my gun has too much recoil that means that my character is an amateur who doesn't know how to fire a weapon", no, that means that you can't pull your mouse down and correct your aim, not saying it can't go out with adjustments, it surely can, IMO the recoil while standing or kneeled is great, feels like the weapon packs a punch, but when prone the kick is way too slow, you fire a weapon and the kick is still going on .40 seconds later.

Not saying everyone is wrong, but these are some quite ridiculous arguments to bring to the table, I find the recoil fine except when prone and I agree that you should be able to mount your weapon on window shells or fences or deploy bipods on the ground for better stability.

This is more along the lines I am thinking. No - pulling down a mouse to compensate for recoil doesn't compare to the real thing - but then again being able to simply click and not have to control recoil at all doesn't either. At least when pulling down the mouse you are required to be more involved while shooting which I think is great. Simply clicking is too easy. And this dragging of the mouse does seem to be an intended feature from BIS. If you read the field manual you'll find that they tell you to do just that as well as change stance in order to improve accuracy. And it only has a good effect on firefights. They are much more interesting then arma 2 firefights. That in itself is a good enough reason to keep it as is (with minor tweaks) to my mind.

Except IRL you don't have to manhandle your 10kg LMG to keep it from flying up in the air when you fire a 3 round burst, even when standing up. Or your rifle when you fire it standing up. The current recoil would pretty much only be realistic if weapons would weigh 0.5-1kg.

It's called proper aiming techniques, you don't have to pull a rifle or even a LMG down when you stand up firing it IRL.

Are you saying that it is harder to drag down a mouse than actually control an LMG in reality... really? Honestly I haven't even touched a LMG in my life so maybe it is, but right now I don't think LMG recoil is that bad. In fact it is good enough as is. LMG's are accurate enough to provide effective suppression yet not so easy to control that you are basically a fully automatic sniper. I find that in PvP battles at least, the LMG is forced to play a more realistic role than in arma 2. No longer is he the guy that see's a guy, points his gun, fires for a few seconds and then waits for the smoke to rise so he can see his kill. Now he is the guy that sprays lead all over the enemy so they shit themselves and hide in cover. Of course against ai this is not true and the LMG is really awkward to use (basically becomes a rifle with a big magazine) but this is not a fault of the recoil but rather of the ai.

Of course, full auto stay more in line than single shot fast fired, that is too, a feature :/

I don't even speak about absurd recoil for MX LMG (same rounds, about same ROF)

Okay do you have some kind of proof of these because I can't for the life of me reproduce either. Recoil is the same for both full auto and semi

. And the LMG seems to have pretty much the same recoil as the assault rifle...

Only thing I can think of that may be weird is that it seems recoil is higher when looking through the close quarters sight than when looking through the scope - but I need to do a bit more testing on that before I jump to any conclusions.

It's not just being expert. The fact is that the guns don't jump up that much...
They don't? When fired by people who don't know how to use them, guns seem to jump pretty bad. I am sure there are some you tube videos showing plenty of that. I think in the videos with experts shooting off, it is the person that is responsible for the accuracy not just because the gun doesn't kick much. BIS seems to want the same thing. It is largely up to the player to be responsible for accuracy, not so much the gun or the avatar the player is using.

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Are you saying that it is harder to drag down a mouse than actually control an LMG in reality... really? Honestly I haven't even touched a LMG in my life so maybe it is, but right now I don't think LMG recoil is that bad. In fact it is good enough as is. LMG's are accurate enough to provide effective suppression yet not so easy to control that you are basically a fully automatic sniper. I find that in PvP battles at least, the LMG is forced to play a more realistic role than in arma 2. No longer is he the guy that see's a guy, points his gun, fires for a few seconds and then waits for the smoke to rise so he can see his kill. Now he is the guy that sprays lead all over the enemy so they shit themselves and hide in cover. Of course against ai this is not true and the LMG is really awkward to use (basically becomes a rifle with a big magazine) but this is not a fault of the recoil but rather of the ai.

No, I am not. However, constantly having to drag down your mouse to ensure that a longer burst (as in 5-6 shots) to not cause the 10kg weapon to fly up in the air, dragging the entire upper body of the shooter with it, is what I would call simulated manhandling. Seriously, my mouse pad isn't even big enough for me to actually be able to control the recoil from a 6 shot burst with an LMG without actually lifting my mouse and replacing it at the top of the mousepad. And that's the recoil when lying down.

And people can talk about "BIS wants you to be responsible for accuracy, etc." but it's not the same. IRL it's about how you hold the weapon, and any trained soldier will be properly trained at that. It's not about countering the recoil by pulling your weapon down.

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They don't? When fired by people who don't know how to use them, guns seem to jump pretty bad. I am sure there are some you tube videos showing plenty of that. I think in the videos with experts shooting off, it is the person that is responsible for the accuracy not just because the gun doesn't kick much. BIS seems to want the same thing. It is largely up to the player to be responsible for accuracy, not so much the gun or the avatar the player is using.

As it stands now we're trained soldiers fighting against our avatar. Not quite accurate. The sway is pretty silly too, I aimed at a wall the other day and just watched my reticle, I haven't seen a weapon that unsteady IRL since we fired off of the fantail on a ship.

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They don't? When fired by people who don't know how to use them, guns seem to jump pretty bad. I am sure there are some you tube videos showing plenty of that. I think in the videos with experts shooting off, it is the person that is responsible for the accuracy not just because the gun doesn't kick much. BIS seems to want the same thing. It is largely up to the player to be responsible for accuracy, not so much the gun or the avatar the player is using.

They don't as badly as in the game. Everyone wants player skill to be the important factor, it's just that BIS have currently invented their own version of recoil and it would be better if the game reflected real world recoil instead. The clips simply show what real world recoil looks like. And you will also notice that lying behind an LMG doesn't take more skill than the correct prone position which your avatar does know how to do (some may ask why can the avatar know this skill but not controlling the weapon but that's another discussion). Gravity and the tri-point anchor position does the rest (i.e. the bipod at the front + shooter anchoring the stock).

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Okay do you have some kind of proof of these because I can't for the life of me reproduce either. Recoil is the same for both full auto and semi as far as I can tell. And the LMG seems to have pretty much the same recoil as the assault rifle...

Only thing I can think of that may be weird is that it seems recoil is higher when looking through the close quarters sight than when looking through the scope - but I need to do a bit more testing on that before I jump to any conclusions.

I watched carefully your video, but with all due respect, it's not revelant.

You single shot either case (and btw, that demonstrates brilliantly the excessive muzzle climb with no weight account) so the recoil model doesn't apply in that case.

For testing purpose, engage one mobile enemy at 30-40 meters by firing full auto (keep trigger pressed) and restart engaging him by rapid single shot fire (150-300 RPM)

In full auto, the muzzle climb elevation is lowered proportionally with the rate of fire in my observation (I could make a video).

With lower ROF, the elevation must mandatory be compensated with mouse, which is quite hard if fire is delivered in rapid succession. So the result is a complete mess, considering you fire discipline should have given the exact opposite.

Edited by NikoTeen

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Tactics and teamwork should win the battle, not mastering the recoil mouse mini-game.

---------- Post added at 11:20 ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 ----------

Really there should be an accepted baseline of weapons handling that the ingame avatar has. From there skilled players wil be able to get faster snap shots and longer shots quicker, etc.

Right now it feels like you are 'playing the game' instead of immersing into the world

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