The Grenade Thread

[Smurf 12]

Jay Crowe did mention that the current grenade implementation is closer to what he wants but still WIP, but he didn't mention anything in his desired changes about grenades as an "equip" weapon, only stuff like ability to cook the grenades or more methods of throwing (possibly including underhand, for example).

He said that a long time ago and nothing has changed (maybe the cooldown) or spoken.

[Inimical_rize 1]

"Cook grenades"

I wish people, (not inclusive to you op.) would stop the COD idiocy of doing this, the average HE Grenade has a 3-5 second fuse, 3 TO 5 second, I can acquire you a grenade if you would like to attempt this op. lol Joking of course.

[enex 11]

"Cook grenades"

I wish people, (not inclusive to you op.) would stop the COD idiocy of doing this, the average HE Grenade has a 3-5 second fuse, 3 TO 5 second, I can acquire you a grenade if you would like to attempt this op. lol Joking of course.

Cooking It's is valid tactic but is not employed under normal circumstances.

[mordeaniischaos 3]

Soldiers are trained to NOT cook grenades.

CTRL+G for throw grenade

CTRL+R for Switch thrown item

G for gear.

and you could do CTRL+T for change type of throw

Aren't you supposed to remove the grenade, pull the pin, pause, and then throw? You certainly aren't supposed to just launch it directly out of your vest, which is how it works now... lol.

[Doombell 10]

The three most important improvements to grenades compared to Arma 2 I want to see are:

1. Better control of throw power. In A2 the "charge up" seems to start immediately as the animation does, and progress very quickly with little indication of how hard a throw is.

I'd rather it only start when you wind the arm back, and maybe show how hard the throw is by how far back it is. That should be quite easy to fake with just a slight zoom out, since you ordinarily wouldn't see that arm either way.

2. No strange arcing. In A2 grenades went much too high compared to your aim point, so it was often anyone's guess where they would go. Most people are probably more familiar with the practice of aiming over a target you want to throw a grenade at, so I imagine it is more intuitive.

The grenade can come from over your shoulder somewhere for a regular throw, the important thing is the direction.

3. An aiming reference that does not rely on crosshairs being turned on. The simplest is the popular left hand method. You could even make it a toggle like weapon sights if the grenades are switched over to an equip type system.

[Primarch 10]

Aren't you supposed to remove the grenade, pull the pin, pause, and then throw? You certainly aren't supposed to just launch it directly out of your vest, which is how it works now... lol.

You take the pin out, activate the compound by pressing the long handle and throw as soon as you have done that. Cooking grenades is extremely discouraged, for the timer on the grenades vary.

Grenades are not used within normal buildings for the shrapnel will burst through the walls with ease.

[bigpickle 0]

I hope and pray for the ability to cook off grenades. This is a military sandbox, not counter-strike. I would love to be able to cook a grenade (pull the pin and delay throwing it so the enemy has no time to see and avoid because it will explode sooner) because it is realistic and elementary.

I assure you if your sarge asked you to cook a nade at the range you'd double take for sure!

Grenades are not used within normal buildings for the shrapnel will burst through the walls with ease.

Actually not strictly true another hollywooooooood fable, i was very surprised to find that out during training but you could probably hide behind an upturned sofa with ease, all the upholstery in a room absorbs most of the damage. The pressure from the blast would royally mess you up but if you were fighting for your life you might be able to retain enough coherence to fight back. Hence why soldiers go in and spray the room with full mag on auto after grenade assault.

Still I wouldn't like to be on the other side of a stud wall after throwing a nade in tbh.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Bigpickle

[Smurf 12]

When using pistols there is a hand animation that, if it wasn't so fast, could help aiming the throw.

There is no force control.

You can't select what type of throw you want. (wouldn't be a problem with force control)

The whole process happens way to fast and you can't hold the grenade.

Only way to aim is using the crosshair.

Anyway, as is now, is better than anything we ever had in the series. Still, is worst than COD and I'm serious.

[chortles 263]

There is no force control.

You can't select what type of throw you want. (wouldn't be a problem with force control)

The whole process happens way to fast and you can't hold the grenade.

Only way to aim is using the crosshair.

For anyone wondering, stuff like this is what Jay Crowe brought up as "what I don't like about the current implementation", so hopefully these come through but don't expect a dialing-back of the "how quickly it comes out".

[royaltyinexile 175]

Jay Crowe did mention that the current grenade implementation is closer to what he wants but still WIP, but he didn't mention anything in his desired changes about grenades as an "equip" weapon, only stuff like ability to cook the grenades or more methods of throwing (possibly including underhand, for example).

He said that a long time ago and nothing has changed (maybe the cooldown) or spoken.

True, things are moving at a slow pace on the grenade side. I spoke to our lead sandbox designer and programming lead about it; we discussed what we wanted and what was viable and they went away with a reasonably modest plan. I'll ask one of them to provide some update on the latest state, but we're very distracted this week with deadlines for - the rather grinding work of - localisation.

I still have the roughly the same view about the current and potential state now as I did before, though, perhaps with a better sense of the work we'd need to put into the feature to get it into that state. Grenades as 'equipped' weapons is something I prefer - throwables as a different 'mode' (ed: by that I mean weapon mode, not part of the primary weapon fire mode), which you could see in your hand - but the amount of work we'd need to get to that point is big (art, anims, programming, design, config, sounds).

Suffice to say, 'cooldown', as it were, was the simplest/first thing for us to consider, yes. Throwing grenades like an auto-turret was undesired, to say the least - a product of somewhat disconnected design decisions.

Best,

RiE

Edited July 15, 2013 by RoyaltyinExile

[Smurf 12]

Thank you for that.

[chortles 263]

Grenades as 'equipped' weapons is something I prefer - throwables as a different fire mode, which you could see in your hand - but the amount of work we'd need to get to that point is big (art, anims, programming, design, config, sounds).

Separate key at minimum please -- the change you revealed of taking grenades off of primary weapon fire mode was not only well received, but compared to what Arma 2 had I'll take the current implementation since (as you said in the article) thanks to the current implementation I use hand grenades at all, thank you. :)

[ghostone 13]

To follow up on the grenade progress, currently we've just slowed down the rate of throwing grenades. That was the first step. The next step should be non-automatic switching to the next grenade type (for example, I'm throwing chem lights, and then I accidentally throw a grenade because it automatically switches to the next type when one type is exhusted).

I can't promise any exact time when that happens but we're still looking at it so it doesn't get lost in development. :)

[chortles 263]

I would like to ask, so what's the design goal for this next step? That once an grenade type is fully expended/exhausted, that one has to manually switch to the next grenade type instead of the switch being automatic?

Also, is said "manual switch to the next grenade type" the exact same "cycle countermeasures" as would normally be possible (i.e. the one with default keybind LCtrl+G) and therefore it's just preventing "auto-cycle", or is it supposed to be a different, more involved thing thing?

[royaltyinexile 175]

Also, is said "manual switch to the next grenade type" the exact same "cycle countermeasures" as would normally be possible (i.e. the one with default keybind LCtrl+G) and therefore it's just preventing "auto-cycle", or is it supposed to be a different, more involved thing thing?

Yes, exactly, it's intended that one would use the cycle type control (default LCtrl-G). You'd have make a choice about the type you want to use. A minor fix, but a frustrating issue sometimes.

Best,

RiE

[chortles 263]

Based on Ghostone's example, it seems more of an attempt at changing grenade use with a "protective" measure of the fail-safe/fail-secure sort in the same vein as telling people that G is for grenade?

[royaltyinexile 175]

Based on Ghostone's example, it seems more of an attempt at changing grenade use with a "protective" measure of the fail-safe/fail-secure sort in the same vein as telling people that G is for grenade?

Yes that's a part of it. It's what I meant by the player has to 'make a choice', rather than accidentally throwing the wrong type because the game decided to auto-cycle.

A more detailed design would be creating a 'lethal' and 'non-lethal;' type. So you'd auto-switch between, say, Chem-lights and Smokes automatically, but you'd have to make a choice to cycle to Frags, etc. The scope of the solution will mostly depend on the time available to complete the task and complexity of the 'fix'/feature, which will be left up to Sandbox design/program to determine*.

*disclaim ALL THE THINGS

Best,

RiE

[VanZant 48]

I don't see the point to allow the cycle with some things and others don't. Please just disable that feature.

If someone wants to throw grenades, why the game decides to throw orange smoke by itself?. Absolutly no reason.

P.D. Also, it makes no sense not being able to control the launching force.

Edited July 18, 2013 by VanZant

[royaltyinexile 175]

Do excuse me if I'm mistaken, but I'm not sure you've read/understood the posts? :)

If someone wants to throw grenades, why the game decides to throw orange smoke by itself?. Absolutly no reason.

Hence:

The next step should be non-automatic switching to the next grenade type

And..

P.D. Also, it makes no sense not being able to control the launching force.

Hence:

For anyone wondering, stuff like this is what Jay Crowe brought up as "what I don't like about the current implementation".

:j:

Best,

RiE

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

Yes that's a part of it. It's what I meant by the player has to 'make a choice', rather than accidentally throwing the wrong type because the game decided to auto-cycle.

A more detailed design would be creating a 'lethal' and 'non-lethal;' type. So you'd auto-switch between, say, Chem-lights and Smokes automatically, but you'd have to make a choice to cycle to Frags, etc. The scope of the solution will mostly depend on the time available to complete the task and complexity of the 'fix'/feature, which will be left up to Sandbox design/program to determine*.

*disclaim ALL THE THINGS

Best,

RiE

An added benefit of creating lethal/non-lethal would be re-enabling players to drop smoke grenades and chemlights underwater while not allowing grenades ( I'm not sure why this function was removed?)

[nkenny 1051]

A simple fix to slow down grenade usage would require a twofold change: 1, increase the power of a throw the longer the button is pressed. 2, with increased power comes increasingly longer delay before a new action can be committed to.

In other words. If you put a lot of effort into a throw, it will take more time before you can throw grenades again.

-k

[daza 36]

Is there any more thought by the Dev's on Grenades in Arma? after playing a lot of Squad recently, its grenade system seems superior in terms of being able to under arm throw or over-arm. Why hasn't something like this hasn't already been added to Arma 3? Also in Arma throwing a grenade or smoke gren seems a little too bouncy.

 

In Squad its quite simple, LMB to under arm throw or RMB for the other, i currently have RMB for look down the scope or raise weapon, but you could easily make it whatever the the RMB is set to action, if the grenade is held by player it will over-ride that previous binding and be used for throwing. It makes a world of difference when you want to lob a gren over a wall or inside a window. Especially for throwing smoke as well, not wasting them trying to cover a downed team mate. In Arma you are likely to have the smoke grenade thrown to far and have to use another one. 

 

It seems one area of Arma that has been in want of updating for a long time. As well the lack of ability to attach an explosive to a wall or vehicle (which is a little off topic) but i know there are scripts that can do this, so why not have DEMO units with this option? wouldn't be hard to implement at all. 

 

While on the topic of throwing, why not also include the ability to throw a weapon or ammo? say your team mate is pinned down across the street and is out of ammo, it would be cool if you could throw a mag across to him. The mag could have a weak version of the Tactical Ping, which is only visible to players within a metre or something. Which displays where the mag or weapon lands for ten seconds or something. This would utilize the throwing mechanic a little more. However i understand this might mean having to do animations/physics for weapon being hurled and clattering to the ground. But maybe something in between. 

[domokun 515]

@daza have you tried the ACE3 mod because the latest version improves grenades considerably, in fact pretty as you describe it.

A long-established community member Dsylexi helped develop it and publicised it in a video:

 

[daza 36]

3 hours ago, domokun said:

@daza have you tried the ACE3 mod because the latest version improves grenades considerably, in fact pretty as you describe it.

A long-established community member Dsylexi helped develop it and publicised it in a video:

 

I have installed Ace recently but haven't explored all its features, so no i haven't seen what it can do with the grenades until watching that video. That's pretty neat. Which something like that was default in game already. The thing with mods is if you create a mission and it needs mods, most players can't be bothered with closing Arma down and loading up the mods (if they already have them installed).  But i guess that isn't a problem for regular clan play on servers that use the certain mods often. 

 

Still having a basic under and over arm options in Arma 3 until they can come up with something similar to the system in Ace would be nice.

 

[domokun 515]

@daza I'm not arguing with you as I agree that improving grenades seems like a no brainer given tha Arma is supposed to be an infantry simulator. However in the meantime, ACE3 plugs the gap. In fact I think that occassionally BIS may be inspired by mod if they think that it's proven popular and/or well-implemented. But I can't just help thinking that these are basic functions that, like Revive, BIS need to get right from the start, i.e. they seem WAY more important than more cosmetic upgrades like Splendid lighting.