Alpha modding, what help will we get?

[Binkowski 26]

Does the full mission editor include tools to create your own islands? For example if I wanted to remake Chernarus (as an example) could I do that on ARMA, or would I need to use different software?

That would be done in Visitor. We won't be getting updated tools for ArmA3 (at least, not on the release of the Alpha). The tools we currently have should work for content in ArmA3 (as-per DnA). But that is done in Visitor. I'm not a terrain / island editor.. that would be a question for one of the guys that are experts in that field.

[instagoat 133]

Looking back on Arma 2's and Arma 1's modding community developments, I am beginning to get a little afraid for the future of the modding and addon development... CWR has announced their withdrawal from the game, for understandable reasons. A lot of other modders have expressed their dismay at the decisions felled by BI, such as the setting choices or the decision to go with steam, which are all decisions to be respected. People care a lot about this game series, however...

By now I am pessimistic about the future of the modding community, not because of oldtimers leaving due to exhaustion, frustration, real life or other reasons. I am concerned because by now the addon development process is so complex that newcomers (particularly those without any experience) even with Arma and Arma 2 have popped up with regularity on the forums, asked a question, people dug around on the biki and various old sites to come up with a solution, only to either leave frustrated or head back to their work, never to post any updates again.

I can´t think of any A2 generation, big time and upcoming mod that was raised into existence after Arma 2s release. Pretty much everyone of repute has been around at least since Armed Assault times, many more even before. From my perspective, it seems like there are no new people coming in and actually sticking with it: instead of blaming this on people being lazy and entitled (as sometimes happens) I wonder if this problem couldn´t be addressed by making the addon production process easier. Better setup tools, solid, well organized documentation with detailed glossary, as well as fully annotated example models for at least the most basic things to make an addon work in the game would be very helpful.

So, I´ve two questions, is my perspective on the modding community (from the viewpoint of those who are actually involved and know other modders as well) correct?

And, will Bohemia find the time and energy to actually give newcomers enough help to make them overcome the initial hurdles of learning the ropes?

Because otherwise, I am afraid the diversity and ecosystem of the modding scene around Arma may dry up and wither away even before the first addon for Arma 3 is released. I am that pessimistic right now.

Cheers

Insta

[leviath 10]

Well considering DayZ has sold thousands of copies of Arma 2 CO on steam. The combination of Arma/mods/steam is a great deal for BI. I don't see them stopping it.

[Binkowski 26]

Well considering DayZ has sold thousands of copies of Arma 2 CO on steam. The combination of Arma/mods/steam is a great deal for BI. I don't see them stopping it.

And what is going to happen when DayZ Standalone is released?

[slatts 1978]

Well considering DayZ has sold thousands of copies of Arma 2 CO on steam. The combination of Arma/mods/steam is a great deal for BI. I don't see them stopping it.

BI isn't going to stop modding, My question is what will they do to help us make new content with the new features.

[instagoat 133]

Well considering DayZ has sold thousands of copies of Arma 2 CO on steam. The combination of Arma/mods/steam is a great deal for BI. I don't see them stopping it.

DayZ was also made by somebody already working for BI, so they likely had access to the company internal documentation as well as tools, and the abillity to directly speak to the people who wrote everything.

People out here don´t have those benefits. Most Modders probably also aren´t Industry professionals. And DayZ and Arma 3 are completely different genres, I doubt the people who play one are interested in the other merely for the sake of it being an RV engine game. Additionally, the DayZ devs have already stated that they will explicitly restrict modding.

[slatts 1978]

Can we stay on topic and not go down the DayZ road?...

[ravendk 25]

It will mostelikely be a matter of looking at the pbo/cpp and retextures for starters..

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

DayZ is the origin off all our problems:(, and the future off modding will be indeed unknow, hearing off long time modders and groups getting out is sad, really if you know how long they been around and the work they puth in the game to make it what it is today! I been a long member and know most modders from the OFP days,

we only can wait and see,but so far its not looking to well:(

[Binkowski 26]

I don't think BI will remove modding all together. The downfall (as InstaGoat stated) will be the accessibility of modding and everything becoming less and less thus making modding more difficult for new comers.

[leviath 10]

I'm pretty sure this new steam era will lead to the use of steam workshop to integrate mods easier into your game.

[bad benson 1733]

i don't see how dayZ bringing more customers and thus more money for BI can ever be a problem. the only thing i hate about it is that it get's a new character skeleton and arm 3 doesn't.

i think there are several reasons why ambitious project are more rare nowadays. one of them is that people are getting older and maybe pursue other stuff in life and don't have the time that is required anymore. in addition to that there aren't many new people willing to learn the stuff needed to make an addon. saying that this is the case because stuff is getting too complicated is nonsense in my opinion. modding is not part of the game like the mission editor. if you really want to achieve certain things you'll have to put in the time to research and practice. i think the new generation of people in general and gamers specifically is just less patient and more used to consuming than creating. people who ask the right questions on the forums were replaced by hordes of people begging for releases.

on the other hand i have to say that the current tools we have are just not enough. some stuff is complicated and time consuming for no reason. i mean with enough patience you can do a lot but some of it is consuming huge amounts of time just because the tools are more than lacking. i can just repeat what i said before. creation of new character models, animations and terrains is as time consuming as it is due to lousy tools. in fact the "animation tools" are user created and without those there wouldn't be any. everyone who actually tried to create stuff like that knows that oxygen is a file converter at best.

in short: there are two sides of the coin. modding requires dedication and if you don't have that than it's not for you. but the "SDK" is not complete and parts of it are just so unusable that after having worked on a project you'll ask yourself twice if you want to spend the time being in a constant struggle with the tools again.

i really thought BI would slowly add plugins for content creators but i kind of gave up on it. would be nice to get some kind of explanation as to why it is a problem to release the plugins they use though.

[Binkowski 26]

I'm pretty sure this new steam era will lead to the use of steam workshop to integrate mods easier into your game.

Let's not get back on this argument again. Take it to the ArmA3 Steamworks thread.

[leviath 10]

Let's not get back on this argument again. Take it to the ArmA3 Steamworks thread.

The thread is "Alpha modding, what help will we get ?".

Steam Workshop is among the help we can get for modding. Let me apologize to speak about the very topic of this thread.

[instagoat 133]

I'm pretty sure this new steam era will lead to the use of steam workshop to integrate mods easier into your game.

Mod Integration is not the problem. I don´t fully agree with Bad Benson that people don´t want to put in the time anymore, the problem is more that people are used to instant gratification right now (even in school settings where standards have been lowered where I live constantly for the past 20 years to accomodate for falling numbers of people passing.), so if people don´t get stuff to work, they leave in frustration and go to do other things that are more immediately rewarding. Once they find something that is rewarding, they put incrementally more effort and brilliance into it as they gain more experience, though. Hurdles across the bank in computer technology have been lowered ever since the millenium began, so complaining about this issue doesn´t help anything. The question is how to adapt to the new demographic (from BIS side) if they want their community to continue to mod as fruitfully they have in the past.

But that is really sorting the chaff from the wheat, I think. The people that really care then have to put up with the tools (and there I agree again), which are not adequate for this day and age anymore.

People can put on lots of research, and figure everything out, and still not get anywhere with their addons because the process right now is tedious and awkward. The end result is the same: Old people leave because they feel they have invested enough time, and the new people find tools that apparently remained stuck in the 90s in interface and useabillity design. Consequently, they get fed up with having sticks thrown in their wheel, and leave for other games where putting stuff in is easier achieved.

Mod integration isn´t the problem, the problem is getting an addon prepared to the point of being able to be seen by the game, and functioning properly in it. The most nicely designed and sculpted model is useless when you can´t get it ingame in a timely, logical and error proof fashion.

By now, the question appears to go beyond mere documentation, if the tools themselves are already so obfuscating that even experienced addon creators are getting frustrated every time they look at the interface, something more basic has to be done: new and better tools.

Though, given the problems with Arma 3 and DayZ, I do not expect there actually being free people to assign to building updated and improved community modding tools.

[Binkowski 26]

We aren't talking about the integration of mods. We're talking about the source files and things that will help creators to design their own work for ArmA3 and their work be up to the standard.

InstaGoat summed it up pretty well.

[vespaz 10]

I don't think BI will remove modding all together. The downfall (as InstaGoat stated) will be the accessibility of modding and everything becoming less and less thus making modding more difficult for new comers.

I think the exact opposite is true - Arma3 will be more moddable than all previous titles. It's just that full SDK is not yet prepared in time of the Alpha.

[ProfTournesol 956]

I think the exact opposite is true - Arma3 will be more moddable than all previous titles.

And why, dear sir ?

[Binkowski 26]

I think the exact opposite is true - Arma3 will be more moddable than all previous titles. It's just that full SDK is not yet prepared in time of the Alpha.

What makes you think this?

[astast 12]

People can put on lots of research, and figure everything out, and still not get anywhere with their addons because the process right now is tedious and awkward. The end result is the same: Old people leave because they feel they have invested enough time, and the new people find tools that apparently remained stuck in the 90s in interface and useabillity design. Consequently, they get fed up with having sticks thrown in their wheel, and leave for other games where putting stuff in is easier achieved.

Well Arma is one of the easier games to mod, I know many games that can't be modded at all...

But i agree with you on the tool set, I have never learned how to model or do anything really in Oxygen 2. I always used 3ds max for modeling and unwarping, using oxygen for unwarping is a pain in the as* Oxygen 2 for me is only a stepping stone to end up stuck in the middle of the ocean :D

[vespaz 10]

And why, dear sir ?

Let me quote Joris: These early-access and test programs are really exciting for us. Particularly the ability to fully mod the Alpha is something quite unique in the current industry. Many of the games are even moving away from modding the final game. I can’t wait to see what our community comes up with before the full game is released.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/02/28/czech-out-bohemia-talk-arma-3-alpha/

In another article he mentioned the updated modding tools will just be released later, the reason being that they are not done yet. Which seems totally understandable to me.

How can someone conclude from that Arma3 is moving away from modding, if BIS stated the exact opposite?

Edited February 28, 2013 by vespaz

[nodunit 397]

Because there are those in the community that are the panicky sort.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Let me quote Joris: These early-access and test programs are really exciting for us. Particularly the ability to fully mod the Alpha is something quite unique in the current industry. Many of the games are even moving away from modding the final game. I can’t wait to see what our community comes up with before the full game is released.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/02/28/czech-out-bohemia-talk-arma-3-alpha/

In another article he mentioned the updated modding tools will just be released later, the reason being that they are not done yet. Which seems totally understandable to me.

How can someone conclude from that Arma3 is moving away from modding, if BIS stated the exact opposite?

Nope, but i fail to see how it would be the most moddable game of the series.

[vespaz 10]

It has the most features - for example physx alone is full of possibilities. Plus if the Steam thing is done right, easier access to mods for broader audience - more motivation for modmakers.

[Sealife 22]

its the most moddable becuase its got less changes and therefore all previous methods are not changed

i presume there is less to find out and a simple text explanation of defines will allow for :

Mondlakbs Building tutorial will work

a2 soldier model and skeleton will still work

TOH helicopter example model will work

Terrains will still be ok made by Visitor 3

this leaves less to be told than previous generations I.E defines for - Phys X - any additional texure -water properties maybe all thats required