Snipers

[DarkLight 0]

I've seen a lot of stuff about war, militairy conflicts, special operations, etc on television lately.

Everytime i see a sniper on tv they never have a silencer or one of those things that makes sure that you can't see the "flash" when you shoot.

I've seen some pics from Vietnam and there the snipers had silencers but why is it that they don't use them these days?

Isn't it a lot better if the enemy can't hear you?

Maybe i'm wrong, maybe they use silencers but i can't see them.

Not so long ago i saw a British group of soldiers on tv, they were in Afghanistan scanning the area for "terrorists" and they also had a sniper with them, same story, i couldn't see a silencer. Is that because they don't use them or because you can't see them (you know, it's inside the gun)?

I'd feel a lot better as a sniper when my gun didn't make so much noise. Anyway, anybody know why?

[Guest]

It is quite simple. The loudest noise from a gun comes from the bullet going supersoinc and breaching the sound barrier. Snipers use high velocity rifles since they want the bullet to travel far. A suppressor reduces the noise from the expanding gases from the bullet. To reduce all the noise, you need to use subsonic ammunition and that wouldn't work for a sniper rifle since it would reduce it's range significantly.

Hope this explains

[RedStorm 0]

They never use silencer because: 1: They make your rifle fire a lot less accurate and 2: The bullets can't travel the same distance as they would without a silencer (supressor)

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RedStorm @ July 10 2002,12:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They never use silencer because: 1: They make your rifle fire a lot less accurate and 2: The bullets can't travel the same distance as they would without a silencer (supressor)<span id='postcolor'>

Um. 1) no

2) no

Sorry RedStorm, but the rifle is as accurate with a suppressor as without it. Actually, you can get better accuracy with a suppressor since you get a bettter sight radius (i.e the rifle is longer and easier to aim with).

The bullet is never in contact with the suppressor and the expanding gases come behind it, so there is no reuction in speed and hence distance

[DarkLight 0]

Ahha, but why did they use silencers in Vietnam if it doesn't work without that special ammo?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ July 10 2002,12:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ahha, but why did they use silencers in Vietnam if it doesn't work without that special ammo?  <span id='postcolor'>

Probably due to the environmental conditions they didn't need to shoot so far (they could hide in vegetation and shoot on short range). So they used subsonic ammo. That's my guess anyway.

[LauryThorn 0]

Anyway, if you are a sniper, you should make your shot from far away, and since you shoot only a few shots from the same location, the gun sound or flash shouldn't expose your location.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 10 2002,12:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ July 10 2002,12:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ahha, but why did they use silencers in Vietnam if it doesn't work without that special ammo?  <span id='postcolor'>

Probably due to the environmental conditions they didn't need to shoot so far (they could hide in vegetation and shoot on short range). So they used subsonic ammo. That's my guess anyway.<span id='postcolor'>

Probably the snipers personal preference. The guy probably felt that the ability to keep the enemy guessing as to where the shots were coming from was more important than having every shot be lethal.

[Major Fubar 0]

I think the "silencers" you saw from Vietnam were more likely to be flash-hiders/suppressors rather than true silencers.

Also, AFAIK, they didn't use subsonic ammo either...

Denoir, are you sure that silencers don't reduce accuracy? I have read before that they do, the absorbption of the excess gasses causes the barrel to jump...

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ July 10 2002,13:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Denoir, are you sure that silencers don't reduce accuracy? I have read before that they do, the absorbption of the excess gasses causes the barrel to jump...<span id='postcolor'>

Very sure. Modern suppressor provide a constant force behind the bullet. The amount of gas that is vented is exactly the same as without a suppressor. It's just that it's pressure is reduced by letting it through the suppressor.

Unsuppressed weapons have exactly the same range and penetration as the suppressed. You usually use low-speed (subsonic) ammo with a suppressor to avoid the sonic boom of the bullet, but that has nothing to do with the suppressor.

Here is how suppressors work:

A bullet is propelled through the barell by high-pressure pulse of hot gas, generated by the ignited gunpowder. When the bullet exits the end of the barrel you get the same effect as you get when you open a champagne bottle or pop a baloon with a pin. The loud "pop" that the gun produces is due to the extremely hight pressure of the gas behind the bullet.

A suppressor screws on to the end of the barrel and has a much higher volume then the barrel. The gas expands inside the suppressor and the pressure of the gas falls significantly. When the bullet exits the suppressor, the pressure being released is much lower and you avoid the loud "pop".

A suppressor does not silence the 'crack' of the supersonic bullets (i.e sonic boom). It doesn't silence the operating mechanism of the gun and it doesn't silence the impact of the bullet. A good suppressor does not affect the general characteristics of the gun in any way.

Old suppressors that used wipes could deminish the accuracy of a weapon, but that is another story.

Where is Mister Frag when you need him

[DarkLight 0]

I found some pics of snipers in Vietnam with things that look like silencers on their guns. I'm just posting the links because i think the pics are too big (i'm not sure, i don't know anything about bytes and stuff like that)

1st pic

This one has weird colors, but you can see the gun.

Sniper in Vietnam

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ July 10 2002,13:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think the "silencers" you saw from Vietnam were more likely to be flash-hiders/suppressors rather than true silencers.

Also, AFAIK, they didn't use subsonic ammo either...

Denoir, are you sure that silencers don't reduce accuracy? I have read before that they do, the absorbption of the excess gasses causes the barrel to jump...<span id='postcolor'>

A silencer reduces the gas pressure therefor the velocity of the round. Slower bullets are less accurate.

[Guest]

9--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 10 2002,179)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A silencer reduces the gas pressure therefor the velocity of the round. Slower bullets are less accurate.<span id='postcolor'>

A suppressor does not reduce the gas pressure in the barrel. A suppressor is attached *after* the barrel. It doesn't in any way affect the bullet's velocity and characteristics. The bullet is propelled through the barrel, after that the gas disperses, with suppressor or without suppressor. It doesn't affect the bullet in any way and it certainly doesn't slow it down.

[Placebo 29]

Denoir maybe if you type really slowly they may believe you next time when you say the same thing yet again

[Mister Frag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 10 2002,04:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><Snip>

Where is Mister Frag when you need him <span id='postcolor'>

I'm here, watching.

However, it looks like you have this thing fully under control.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mister Frag @ July 10 2002,20:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 10 2002,04:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><Snip>

Where is Mister Frag when you need him <span id='postcolor'>

I'm here, watching.

However, it looks like you have this thing fully under control.  <span id='postcolor'>

LMAO

[USSoldier11B 0]

I'll back you up Denoir. Although you don't need sub-sonic ammunition to use a silencer, it is the best thing to do if you want to remain undetected. Velocity of the bullet is not affected by an non-artificial environment supressor, but would be by one that is an artificial environment supressor, which are generally filled with water, vaseline, or a fiberglass insert. Accurancy will be affected by the use of a silencer since it causes ballistic turbulance. Most modern rifle silencers are built to adjust the POI to compensate for the turbulance. So, although Denoir was correct for the most part, and unsupressed weapon is always going to be more accurate.

[Guest]

Groan. I guess I'll have to take placebo's advice and type slower

A suppressor (silencer is btw hollywood slang, it is called suppressor, but never mind) does *not* in any way alter the internal ballistics of the weapon. The exhaust gases come out slowly a long time after the bullet has exited the barrel.

As for accuracy goes, in the typical case there should be no difference at all. I know that the Swedish military did some measurements with suppressed FNC 80's. The result was that the suppressed weapon was slightly more accurate then the unsuppressed one. The difference was however very very small.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 10 2002,11:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A silencer reduces the gas pressure therefor the velocity of the round. Slower bullets are less accurate.<span id='postcolor'>

Reduces the gas pressure yes, but does not reduce the speed of the round, the gas is behind the round. Remember, the sound supressor is at the end of the barrel.

Maybe you figure the slowed gas causes a vacuum effect?

[USSoldier11B 0]

I guess it depends on what type of supressor you are using. There are countless varieties using different types of technologies. Like I said before, a silencer utilizing a media within the device to facilitate sound supression will affect the velocity of the bullet, but the difference is as little as 20-50 fps. These types of supressors are generally disposable or must be refilled to achieve continuous supression performance. I also stated that that yes Denoir you are correct, modern silencer technology utilizing non-artificial environment supression will not affect the performance of your firearm. Since the manufacturers have compensated for the ballistic turbulence within the supressor. If I'm wrong, then the manufacturers that I have researched are lying about ballistic turbulence POI compensation.

[Guest]

I forgot to add why suppressed weapons can be slightly more accurate. When you are using subsonic ammo the sound blast from the expanding gas travels faster then the bullet. In an unsuppressed weapon this sound wave can slightly destabilize the bullet. On a suppressed weapon the pressure from that sound blast is much lower and affects the bullet less.

[Renagade 0]

So now theres 2 plausible reasons for a silencer reducing velocity,turbulence and vacum

Dont some silenced guns have special modiifications to them to allow them to use regular ammo but without the sonic boom like vents in the barrel to lower gas pressure therefore lower muzzle velocity of the bullet to a subsonic speed but then that wouldn`t apply to traditional silencers.

Maybe some of u other guys could answer this.

Just how load would silenced gun using normal ammo,hence the supersonic crack,compare to the same gun and silencer but using subsonic ammo in combat conditions and also if u just missed wouldn`t the mark hear the whizzz of the bullet as it passes closeby?

One more thing i was thinking of is with some modern sniper rifles they have muzzle brakes which i would asume would decrease the muzzle flash as well as reducing recoil like the accuracy international rifles,the .50 one, and the barret .50.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Renagade @ July 11 2002,04:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So now theres 2 plausible reasons for a silencer reducing velocity,turbulence and vacum  <span id='postcolor'>

No. Not one single plausible. Please don't make me repeat myself once more

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Dont some silenced guns have special modiifications to them to allow them to use regular ammo but without the sonic boom like vents in the barrel to lower gas pressure therefore lower muzzle velocity of the bullet to a subsonic speed but then that wouldn`t apply to traditional silencers.

<span id='postcolor'>

I guess that you could put holes in the barrel, but why, when you can use regular subsonic ammo? It is not at all that special.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Maybe some of u other guys could answer this.

Just how load would silenced gun using normal ammo,hence the supersonic crack,compare to the same gun and silencer but using subsonic ammo in combat conditions and also if u just missed wouldn`t the mark hear the whizzz of the bullet as it passes closeby?

<span id='postcolor'>

The supersonic crack is the bitch in the situation. It is the loudest and most far reaching sound. The whizz of the bullet is nothing compared to the sound of the impact of the bullet. It is however irrelevant. What is importrant is that the target cannot locate the sniper.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One more thing i was thinking of is with some modern sniper rifles they have muzzle brakes which i would asume would decrease the muzzle flash as well as reducing recoil like the accuracy international rifles,the .50 one, and the barret .50.<span id='postcolor'>

Muzzle brakes vent the gasses in a way so that it produces a force opposite to the recoil. Flash suppressors reduce the muzzle flash. Those are two different things

[USSoldier11B 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I forgot to add why suppressed weapons can be slightly more accurate. When you are using subsonic ammo the sound blast from the expanding gas travels faster then the bullet. In an unsuppressed weapon this sound wave can slightly destabilize the bullet. On a suppressed weapon the pressure from that sound blast is much lower and affects the bullet less.

<span id='postcolor'>

Makes sense.

[dayglow 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ July 10 2002,07:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I found some pics of snipers in Vietnam with things that look like silencers on their guns.  I'm just posting the links because i think the pics are too big (i'm not sure, i don't know anything about bytes and stuff like that)

1st pic

This one has weird colors, but you can see the gun.

Sniper in Vietnam<span id='postcolor'>

I think the use of those cans were probably to reduce the flash more than silence the shot. The rifles look like M14/21 varients, which mean 7.62mm rounds, so a subsonic round that big wouldn't go that far. With the can on it would reduce the flash and by the look of those starlight scopes, keep the guy firing the rifle from being blinded in the scope.

COLINMAN