The future of CCGM

[SoulAssassino 1]

First of all, hi everyone!

I really took a liking to this game, and managed to put in 60ish hours 'till now. Had loads of fun, but many frustrated moments as well. My impression is that this game was an extremely ambitious project, which had loads of potential in it, but was limited by time and budget, so a lot of ideas had to be dropped in order to make the core experience workable. Which is still the better decision, facing the alternative of a game with way more functionality but being way less polished. The graphics, effects, sounds, maps are all great, and done. The action gameplay itself when in manual control is pretty solid as well. What the game lacks(apart from the obvious and stated by many ai and crash fix) is the set of proper rts commands, and the units being able to carry them out, and some other bits that'll happily list in the appropriate thread.

I've been reading this forum for some time, and i see that you have quite a lot of people loving the game, and willing to pour their insights into it, not to mention hard work when the modding tools are released.

All i'd like to know, and i'm mainly asking the developers here, on what your plans are. Will you only support the game with fixing the major issues (the basic ai, the pathfinding, the crashes) or are you planning to add some heavily needed extra content to make the experience deeper?

Or will that be left to the modders?

And that's what i mean when i'm asking about the future of the game.

Many Thanks,

SoulAssassino

P.s.:

Of course i would like to thank you for making it, i haven't had this much fun playing a single game since Battlezone 2, you still did a great job in my opinion.

[Tijai 1]

There just arent enough zombies in it to justify spending time and money I guess :rolleyes:

I guess sooner or later the modding community may be the saviour, thats where more of the better developments with this engine seem to originate.

I did kind of envisage this to game to be kind of like Warfare on ArmA2 but on a continental scale - maybe theres something in that for multiplayer ? ;)

BTW these or only my opinions, feel free to ignore - Im probably wrong :p.

[.kju 3239]

Check the new official BIKI articles on CCGM modding:

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Game_Editor_(Workbench)_Creating_New_Terrain

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Game_Editor_(Workbench)_Terrain_In_Engine

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Game_Editor_(Workbench)

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Workbench

[jureidinim 10]

;2268241']Check the new official BIKI articles on CCGM modding:

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Game_Editor_(Workbench)_Creating_New_Terrain

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Game_Editor_(Workbench)_Terrain_In_Engine

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Game_Editor_(Workbench)

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Workbench

I guess this is a WIP - as a lot of those links (espescially the Workbench) are empty page stubs.

Where exactly is this editor? How do we start it? (sorry if i missed a message on this - was it in the latest patch?)

[Ghebraant 1]

There just arent enough zombies in it to justify spending time and money I guess :rolleyes:

I guess sooner or later the modding community may be the saviour, thats where more of the better developments with this engine seem to originate.

I did kind of envisage this to game to be kind of like Warfare on ArmA2 but on a continental scale - maybe theres something in that for multiplayer ? ;)

BTW these or only my opinions, feel free to ignore - Im probably wrong :p.

There's not going to be a modding community for this game, let's be honest.

[mikeap 0]

There's not going to be a modding community for this game, let's be honest.

Sadly, but true. I think you're right.

[species1571 64]

There's not going to be a modding community for this game, let's be honest.

I fear this, too. They are taking much too long to get patches out which breaks any mods that have already been done. They also have not converged the Steam and retail versions, which they said they would, so mods have to be made for both versions. Also the lack of the promised modding tools. And the people who were enthusiastic about modding at the start will have lost interest and moved on, or been banned from the forums.

[spartashusky 1]

Evenning. Dude from America here have a friend in Prague told me about this game for xbox... I was incredibly excited because he stated it was a mix of battleship and battlefield 2142. I was surprised to see he was mostly right... Until I actually started putting a few hours into the game.

Unfortunately I have no idea where was the testers or the developers when it came to path finding but this game is one has one of the worst AI's I have ever seen. I dont even think games from 10 years ago had these problems. We are in 2013ish and you are unable to get a straight line in path finding right?... poor show guys.

Aside from it the graphics are not too bad, the story and strategy game were sound and a nice idea was behind them all. But the AI seems to be working against the player rather than with me. I have grenadiers attacking another of the same type and mine shoots just short of hitting while the enemy hits me 90% of the time. Completely ridiculous.

Graphics, gameplay, sound, voice acting all were reasonable for this game. Never heard of it if it wasnt for my friend. But your AI is the one cornerstone of this game that makes it one of the most infuriating console games I have ever seen. Thankfully this was intended for PC... given by the cheap aiming motion once on foot, it screams "use a mouse".

So I have 2 suggestions, and 1 request from anyone:

Suggestions:

Get the AI working right, I dont ask for amazing graphics or voice acting, you aren't EA, you are not Firaxis studios so I get it. But given that most of the commands are worked out for the AI please get it working for the future. It never ceases to amaze me how I tell a vehicle to go in a straight line only for it to go 30 feet then stop to back up 10 feet, then do it over and over and over until it reaches its destination. Telling two units to attack, and I see one retreat to god knows where while the other gets destroyed... Or a grenadier trying to attack an aircraft... that was a funny one I admit.

Second suggestion... with all due respect, stay out of consoles. Just a friendly advise you are not up to it stay in pc and work out the kinks.

Now my question is. I like the idea of this game, it actually has a lot of potential. My question is this game on PC are there mods or patches something that someone has done to work out the AI pathfinding? I was thinking of getting it for PC... thankfully I opted for common sense above eagerness to get it and I rented it on xbox, returning it of course before the path finding AI makes me want to break the disc. I'd be more than glad to buy it on PC if I know there are mods or patches that worked out the pathfinding which really is the only thing that stops the game from being ...different in a cool way in this age of testosterone driven fps games.

Thanks for your time... and again, test the game before you release it path finding AI this bad is from the 90's we are in 2012-13. Still very nice Idea for a game. Not many flaws... just the few that it has are... too damn huge.

[scrapser 11]

BIS has a reputation for taking time to get as much resolved as they can before releasing a patch. I suspect this is that time. Be patient.

[Appogee 1]

Unfortunately I have no idea where was the testers or the developers when it came to path finding but this game is one has one of the worst AI's I have ever seen.

Don't blame the beta testers. We called out long, loud and often through the 3 months of the Beta program that the pathfinding was badly broken, and warned that it was going to kill the game if it was left unfixed.

That BI went ahead and released it anyway is even more disappointing to us than to you. It resulted in poor reviews, and I suspect, many players who tried the game and then just walked away never to return.

on PC are there mods or patches something that someone has done to work out the AI pathfinding?

The 1.03 patch on PC made pathfinding better, but it's still not fixed. Optimists hope that BI is still working on another patch. Pessimists note that they have been uncommmunicative since patch 1.03 was released in the two weeks prior to Christmas, and worry that perhaps BI have decided the game's reputation is unsalvageable and that any further development is pointless.

I guess we'll find out during January.

[spartashusky 1]

Don't blame the beta testers. We called out long, loud and often through the 3 months of the Beta program that the pathfinding was badly broken, and warned that it was going to kill the game if it was left unfixed.

That BI went ahead and released it anyway is even more disappointing to us than to you. It resulted in poor reviews, and I suspect, many players who tried the game and then just walked away never to return.

The 1.03 patch on PC made pathfinding better, but it's still not fixed. Optimists hope that BI is still working on another patch. Pessimists note that they have been uncommmunicative since patch 1.03 was released in the two weeks prior to Christmas, and worry that perhaps BI have decided the game's reputation is unsalvageable and that any further development is pointless.

I guess we'll find out during January.

First let me apologize I guess you misunderstood. I said testers not beta testers for a reason but I believe it was clear enough. Sometimes developers listen to beta testers sometimes they dont. HOwever the in company testers... AKA developers themselves had to have seen this. So it was just a "jab" at the developers themselves for the oversight.

2nd its christmas so I give them some time I wouldn't be working in christmas either. The game is good, to be honest a little dissapointed on graphics and controls for xbox... these graphics are from Halo 1 even. But I dont mind graphics game main idea is nice path finding just needs the work.

Thanks for the reply, forgive spelling mistakes is 7 am and I have been playing just cause 2 all night so :P.

Cheers

PS: please take out the "image verification" thing... I have to say I always have trouble with those and I sometimes just give up on websites who have them.

[scrapser 11]

I think something will come after the holidays. I have not played that much yet and will likely be disappointed with the focus on the Xbox controller. I wish game developers and publishers could find a way out of the "console box" they've managed to paint themselves into in recent years. Developing sophisticated games and trying to get them to work well on a console, then porting that over to a PC ruins the experience and creates an expensive, impossible mess the developers cannot ever completely resolve. It happens repeatedly and is very frustrating to the buying public.

Consoles are cookie cutter machines designed to be mass produced on the cheap so as many people as possible can buy one and the software does not have to be able to work on a vast variety of hardware configurations. The controller has a limited number of buttons and action types available to it so the game must be designed to work within those limitations. Take that and put it on a PC and you see the problem clearly. The console "solution" to expensive game development has created a new problem. The mass market of consoles is made up of people who are generally young, inexperienced with games, and view them primarily as a toy. This is the market that is driving what games are developed for the most part. They don't want anything that cannot be seen as "instant gratification" so the available games are becoming increasingly dumbed-down.

It's understood that developing a game or sim for a computer is expensive but this solution is not working. I really wish they would focus on coming up with another approach to break the impasse. Personally I think they should develop console specific versions that sell for less so the company can be assured of recovering their overall investment through high volume sales the console market should provide. And make a PC specific version that would sell for a higher price to cover the added expense of developing a PC based game that has a smaller market. The combined profit from console and PC versions should make the marketing of the title viable. I mean...that's the reality being faced here and with all other game developers/publishers.

Let's face it, the console community has no stake in this issue and could care less until the day something similar begins to impact them. There is a very large community of PC gamers who grew up with computers and know what a computer (as opposed to a console) can do for a game or sim. Right now, the mad rush to mobile devices is impacting the entire gaming market so consoles are not as invulnerable as they might think. A new approach is needed.

[tharos 2]

If you think THESE devs messed up..take a look at War Z LOL! The Devs there havent done anything right at all!

[scrapser 11]

There is a problem with the entire gaming community (developers, publishers, and players). We all talk about it here and there...so it's no mystery. And yet there is absolutely no dialog between the buying public and the companies that produce the titles and hardware we purchase. It's no better than trying to get a straight answer to a direct question asked of a politician!

The developers and publishers must be profitable or there's no point in being in business. Anyone can understand that and there is no blame. But the current approach to developing games and hardware doesn't work well enough not to anger customers of either hardware or software. Why is this and why must it continue to be the norm?

Consoles were singled out as the path to profitability. It's no accident they cannot be modified like a computer can. They are all the same so writing code is less expensive and they can be mass produced, driving the price down so many more people can enjoy gaming. Great! Except this leaves much to be desired for the people who play on computers.

Most often the games don't work well as console ports aside from the usual bugs all games contain. Since the games are written for a console, they will never have as full a range of control options and devices because a console has a limited input system. Nobody is going to write code for commands that are not possible on a console control device. Having a limited input system also forces the game to be designed much more simplistically. This in turn drives the types of games that WILL NOT be developed. For example, you will never see a realistic combat helicopter simulation on a console where you have a joystick, throttle, and rudder pedals and the ability to play as either the pilot or the weapons officer. It's simply not possible to do something like that on a console.

PC computer based gaming did not become obsolete. It became too expensive to be profitable given how widespread and diverse the configuration of computers became over the years. So a solution was found that like all solutions, created more problems than it solved. Why not design a hardware system that could be seen as a sort of super console? Give it the processing power advantages of a PC with all the hardware devices a PC could have installed, available as optional equipment. Give it a keyboard and mouse or at least a keypad and mouse designed specifically for playing games. All of this could be standardized and locked just like a console to prevent the machines from becoming diversified and difficult to code for. Price it accordingly to be afforded by those who have the money since those same people are most often those who want more sophisticated gameplay. Price the sophisticated games at a higher price instead of continuing the failed approach of making games as "one size fits all". The two console markets would compliment each other to remain profitable.

Everyone that plays computer games is not under 30. There is a market for games that are not designed for people who have no desire to learn and develop skills or think for that matter. I'm not saying all console players are children who simply want instant gratification but it's clear to anyone who takes the time to look that most games made today are dumbed way down compared to what they used to be. The current solution has created its own monster. It's time for a change.

Edited January 2, 2013 by scrapser

[Dreadnought808 1]

Interesting, and agreeing completely. Allow me to add an example of a perfectly operational and as far as I know, quite profitable PC-only platform: DCS (Digital Combat Simulator), a simulator that runs on a broad range of computer systems.

The DCS system is free to download and play, and gives you access to a huge battle area, and control over one airplane. You can buy additional packs that plug into the DCS program, and add additional planes and helicopters to fly, but there's also packs that turn the whole thing into an RTS where you take control over the battlefield ground units, or even take direct control over a tank and turn the thing into a tank sim.

Scrapser, if you want to see something that is NOT dumbed down, have a look at their DCS- A-10C Warthog pack. It's as close a non-pilot can get to flying the real deal.

it IS possible. It IS profitable. (they're on their, what, 8th pack now) One just needs to get the head right. Picking the right kind of product helps, but more importantly, not let it get screwed up by funny business. (IE. war Z, Diablo 3)

Anyway, thought i'd throw that in there as example of how it can be.

[scrapser 11]

Thanks Dreadnought88. I have seen the ads for DCS but didn't really look at it that closely. I thought is was a realistic sim of military aircraft but without combat (sort of like Microsoft Flight Simulator on steroids). I will definitely look into it now.

FYI, I'm 57 and have been gaming since PONG was released. I have tons of games and three gaming computers. I know that makes me a rare duck but I do wish to share my experience and perspective for those who care to hear it. The gaming industry must address this issue if they are ever going to solve the problems inherent in the current arrangement. It will never be solved as a single, mass solution that pleases everyone. And the majority of the console gaming crowd really isn't interested for all sorts of legitimate reasons, so those that don't care will never know what this is all about and need not be involved. Console gamers that DO wish there was something more to enjoy than follow-the-dot gameplay and enthusiast computer gamers should band together and try to reach out to the developers and publishers. So long as everyone continues to take it with a muted voice, nothing is going to change.