Postcards From A Furious China, or A new Star of David found in China

[-GR-Operative 10]

Comparing the nukes at Hiroshima and Nagazaki to the Rape of Nanking makes no sense: the nuking was a response, but also an ultimate. It was obvious the japanese would surrender after it. But the most important part, it was perpetraded by the US, not by China itself. There must be a national feeling that China never took revenge, I would think. This is fuelled, also, by the denial of the scope of the massacre itself by a good share of japanese scholars.

Any chinese forum comrade, please correct me if I am wrong.

[-Paladin- 10]

Operative;2227080']Comparing the nukes at Hiroshima and Nagazaki to the Rape of Nanking makes no sense: the nuking was a response' date=' but also an ultimate. It was obvious the japanese would surrender after it. But the most important part, it was perpetraded by the US, not by China itself. There must be a national feeling that China never took revenge, I would think. This is fuelled, also, by the denial of the scope of the massacre itself by a good share of japanese scholars.

Any chinese forum comrade, please correct me if I am wrong.[/quote']

And so a new generation of Japanese have to pay with there lives that had nothing to do with this crimes?Or had a chance to do something against it?

Are children starting to pay for the crimes of there parents?If we do this we can start killing every one because some one did in past something to you ancestors. Kane and Abel -.- .

The west will not allow China to get the islands, first the invasion and occupation of Tibet claims to Taiwan and now some islands. So when dose china stop? Hey you know what, just claim ownership of America because you did discover it first.

[jefferspang 2]

And so a new generation of Japanese have to pay with there lives that had nothing to do with this crimes?Or had a chance to do something against it?

Are children starting to pay for the crimes of there parents?If we do this we can start killing every one because some one did in past something to you ancestors. Kane and Abel -.- .

The west will not allow China to get the islands, first the invasion and occupation of Tibet claims to Taiwan and now some islands. So when dose china stop? Hey you know what, just claim ownership of America because you did discover it first.

You're missing the point, sunshine. We're not implying that China will wage a war of aggression against Japan or as you put it '...new generation of Japanese have to pay with there lives'. We're simply asking for a formal apology for the atrocities that Japanese have denied despite irrefutable evidence, China isn't threatening military action because of the Invasion of Manchuria; they're threatening because Japanese are attempting to occupy Chinese land. This is a complete violation of China's sovereigty and the appropriate way to approach this is Military Action, don't give me the bullshit that the 'west' isn't going to let this happen because China's action will be deemed as defensive against the invading Japanese force. Plus with China's growing influence in Asia, the 'west' wouldn't want to get on the wrong side, seeing as they have already made pretty good economic ties with China itself.

I'm not sure about China's claim on (United States) of America.. Why don't you ask the Native Indians? I'm sure they'll have a better insight into your question :)

[Tonci87 163]

As far as I know those Islands have been private property and that guy sold them to japan instead of china, can´t see anything negative there.

[jefferspang 2]

As far as I know those Islands have been private property and that guy sold them to japan instead of china, can´t see anything negative there.

If a land was privately owned in the United States, would the owner have the authority to sell it on to China?

*edit - By China, I mean the Chinese government, not a Chinese investor

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

If a land was privately owned in the United States, would the owner have the authority to sell it on to China?

*edit - By China, I mean the Chinese government, not a Chinese investor

Bad example, but do take a private island in the Caribbean Sea and you could sell it to Puerto Rico. :icon_mrgreen: These islands are a non-issue, in fact, they are closer to Taiwan than they are to China or Japan, but Japan is second in line, if you view it in the context of that huge archipelago stretching from SW Japan to Taiwan.

---------- Post added at 20:11 ---------- Previous post was at 20:05 ----------

Oops, is Taiwan part of mainland PRC now? In their minds it is, but anyway. :icon_mrgreen:

ΜΟΛΩΠΛΑΒΕ!

[vilas 473]

so what was status of this island before ? are there in globe areas that are not "states"?

in such region there are islands that "have no state" ? so what with administration, citizenship , taxes and police there?

they had to belong to one or another state (even because of tax reasons, administrative, voting, police)

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

so what was status of this island before ? Are there in globe areas that are not "states"?

In such region there are islands that "have no state" ? So what with administration, citizenship , taxes and police there?

They had to belong to one or another state (even because of tax reasons, administrative, voting, police)

PRIVATE Owner.

---------- Post added at 21:42 ---------- Previous post was at 20:56 ----------

You're missing the point, sunshine. We're not implying that China will wage a war of aggression against Japan or as you put it '...new generation of Japanese have to pay with there lives'. We're simply asking for a formal apology for the atrocities that Japanese have denied despite irrefutable evidence, China isn't threatening military action because of the Invasion of Manchuria; they're threatening because Japanese are attempting to occupy Chinese land. This is a complete violation of China's sovereigty and the appropriate way to approach this is Military Action, don't give me the bullshit that the 'west' isn't going to let this happen because China's action will be deemed as defensive against the invading Japanese force. Plus with China's growing influence in Asia, the 'west' wouldn't want to get on the wrong side, seeing as they have already made pretty good economic ties with China itself.

You're living in the UK, yet you look down condescendingly on the West - another type of hysteria comes to mind, called Islam and Sharia law, but what we're dealing with here is Eastern inability to cope with the "loss of face" and certain nation's dog-eat-dog mentality - who can blame them, 1.3 billion people in a system that looks only after itself.

People rarely learn by Reason, and when they refuse to be reasonable with their neighbors - we will employ World Wars to clean the slate of nationalism to the point of a common grave.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[vilas 473]

how island could be private ? people lived there ? if someone was killed, which police do investigate ? if someone is sick, who sends ambulance ? if ambulance, than who gets taxes ? noone ? so anyone can murd there and get sick without ambulance ? or it is inhabited small piece of rocks ?

Eastern inability to cope with the "loss of face"

at least they have "face" not like some other nations who say one thing, next week say opposite things (because economical issues changed) and think "nothing happened"

eastern keeping face honour philosophy has good points - people keep promisses there - very rare virtue of character in modern world, keeping promise and keeping word ,

we will employ World Wars to clean the slate of nationalism to the point of a common grave.

hahaha, and who says that ? man from nation where everyone has flag near house ? is it not nationalism ?

nation which sends his troops to other countries ? is it not nationalism ?

it is pure nationalism to want to be over other nations, which is main US activity since late 40s of XX c.

China is less nationalistic cause it doesn't send their troops among the globe to force their lifestyle, culture and economical interests

few times here on this forum you were denying other nations right to patriotism, culture and traditions (the most holy things for many nations)

Edited September 22, 2012 by vilas

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

how island could be private ? people lived there ? if someone was killed, which police do investigate ?

:)

First, it starts out as an

inhabited small piece of rocks ?

And,

if someone is sick, who sends ambulance ?

If it's a serious case, you can always take a ride in your private helicopter to the nearest hospital centre.

Then, as necessity demands,

ambulance

Or first aid office/point can be established,

who gets taxes ?

The private Owner of the island collects taxes,

if someone was killed, which police do investigate

Probably not. :)

people lived there ?

Not anymore. :)

how island could be private ?

The same way a house and the land it is built on can be private with Allodial title - the Owner is King, Sovereign, Ultimate Authority.

[vilas 473]

so if it was small piece of rocks, so i don't understand China position in this case , but also i do not understand how land can be without country, administration, investigation etc.

cause "everywhere must be a law" (in case if someone is murdered or gets sick etc)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands

hmmm

The islands came under US government occupation in 1945 after the surrender of Japan ended World War II.[17] In 1969, the United Nations Economic Commission for Asia and the Far East (ECAFE) identified potential oil and gas reserves in the vicinity of the Senkaku Islands.[20] In 1971, the Okinawa Reversion Treaty passed the U.S. Senate, returning the islands to Japanese control in 1972.[21] Also in 1972, the Taiwanese and Chinese governments officially began to declare ownership of the islands

Japan's Ministry of Defense rents Kuba island for an undisclosed amount. Kuba is used by the U.S. military as a practice aircraft bombing range. Japan's central government completely owns Taisho island.[25][26]

Edited September 22, 2012 by vilas

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

i do not understand how land can be without country, administration, investigation etc.

cause "everywhere must be a law" (in case if someone is murdered or gets sick etc)

http://thelawdictionary.org/allodium/

Land held absolutely in one’s own right, and not of any lord or superior ; land not subject to feudal duties or burdens. An estate held by absolute ownership, without recognizing any superior to whom any duty is due on account thereof.

http://thelawdictionary.org/allodial/

Free; not holden of any lord or superior; owned without obligation of vassalage or fealty; the opposite of feudal.

Goes back waaay into History and the concepts of Man.

[vilas 473]

after wiki:

The islands came under US government occupation in 1945 after the surrender of Japan ended World War II.[17] In 1969, the United Nations Economic Commission for Asia and the Far East (ECAFE) identified potential oil and gas reserves in the vicinity of the Senkaku Islands.[20] In 1971, the Okinawa Reversion Treaty passed the U.S. Senate, returning the islands to Japanese control in 1972.[21] Also in 1972, the Taiwanese and Chinese governments officially began to declare ownership of the islands

Japan's Ministry of Defense rents Kuba island for an undisclosed amount. Kuba is used by the U.S. military as a practice aircraft bombing range. Japan's central government completely owns Taisho island.[25][26]

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Declaring is not the same as enforcing.

I have no information regarding the status of these specific islands, but the concept holds the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Civil_Administration_of_the_Ryukyu_Islands

The Owner could be private, though he may hire a government to administer the land in the way that he desires, much the same way that the People of the united states of America had done with the Constitution, outlining duties and limits of the government.

The government is subservient to the Owner.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[oxmox 73]

Comparing the nukes at Hiroshima and Nagazaki to the Rape of Nanking makes no sense: the nuking was a response, but also an ultimate. It was obvious the japanese would surrender after it

Japan was prepared to negotiate already before the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the US wanted unconditional surrender which didnt fit in japanese culture, to loose the face of their emperor with a displacement on him. On the same day of the proclamation of the unconditional surrender and after preceded negotiations, 14th/15th august, one of the largest bomber groups in ww2 with around 1000 planes did bomb Japan. There were conventional mass bombings before the nuclear attack among others with much higher numbers of direct victims in a night, how can the nuclear attacks count as an response to Nanking ?

Edited September 23, 2012 by oxmox

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

at least they have "face" not like some other nations who say one thing, next week say opposite things (because economical issues changed) and think "nothing happened"

eastern keeping face honour philosophy has good points - people keep promisses there - very rare virtue of character in modern world, keeping promise and keeping word ,

I'll leave this without comment.

hahaha, and who says that ? man from nation where everyone has flag near house ?

Man(kind) says and acts upon that, you should know it first hand, being in the cente of Europe, vilas. :)

nation which sends his troops to other countries ? is it not nationalism ?

They're policing the planet on the behalf of the international community - somebody has to do it.

it is pure nationalism to want to be over other nations, which is main US activity since late 40s of XX c.

Nothing is being taken over, resources are being freed for the free market to be bought and sold under no arbitrary restrictions of dictators.

China is less nationalistic cause it doesn't send their troops among the globe to force their lifestyle, culture and economical interests

The previous four thousands years of history shows otherwise, more modern episodes display the evident supremacy of the West, against whom China dare not act.

few times here on this forum you were denying other nations right to patriotism, culture and traditions (the most holy things for many nations)

The holy things of bloodshed and a prerequisite for the Barbarian Age, maybe. :)

[-Paladin- 10]

... We're simply asking for a formal apology for the atrocities that Japanese have denied despite irrefutable evidence,...

By waving signs of life threads to all japan's citizens, burning Japanese cars? aha strange request for apology must be a east thing.How about addressing the criminals personal instead of shouting "kill them all" or pointing on a map and saying mine? If this crimes where not systematic and only done for pleaser what dose the Japanese government has to do with it?Its not like it was done on direct order but done by individuals. What dose the now living population has to do with it or the government that is civilian now and not like in WW2 military? You ask PPL to apologias for thing´s they did not do or on behalf of PPL that are responsible. Or did I miss something.

China isn't threatening military action because of the Invasion of Manchuria; they're threatening because Japanese are attempting to occupy Chinese land...

This islands where never Chinese land, they where japans soil before WW2 and after WW2 occupy´d by USA (why shod USA occupy islands belonging to china, you where on the allied side) and given back to japan !because! this islands are japans soil. Thats how the rest of the world see´s it and thats what meters not what a single country thinks. Japan has prove of owner ship of this islands way back and china only has claims from 1972 or so. Oh great when china can.... I hear by claim the whole universe, its mine, get lost every one. If you not comply i will invoke operation Earth Foredoom bring democracy and free speech and constitution´s to all in American style ( bomb the shit out of every one)

This is a complete violation of China's sovereigty and the appropriate way to approach this is Military Action, don't give me the bullshit that the 'west' isn't going to let this happen because China's action will be deemed as defensive against the invading Japanese force.

Only what the rest of the world thinks counts on a global scale. The islands are Japans property if china decides to start some crappy action it will condemn´d the aggressor. Nobody supports country's that give a crap about contracts and most important remap whole regions. The next could be Australia or South Korea because again, just claims and saber rattling by China.Where is the prove, evidence.

Plus with China's growing influence in Asia, the 'west' wouldn't want to get on the wrong side, seeing as they have already made pretty good economic ties with China itself.

There is nothing valuable coming from china that would work as barging factor to force the west to stay put.With all the financial depth its more likely that every one will work against china to get rid of payback.The west will not allow china to remap the pacific.The west will side with who is the smaller threat in the future and china is a big threat, and with this claiming on some´s islands china get even more unpredictable and dangerous.How will Chinas economy look like after there is a embargo on all of its trade?And no goods incoming to china? Worser much worser than it will look in the west, the west has still the west but china has no one.China is maneuvering it self in a corner, with all that lunatics and hardcore nationalist on the street crying for japan blood and this face loosing attitude there want be much room to maneuver. I don´t like this situation.

I'm not sure about China's claim on (United States) of America.. Why don't you ask the Native Indians? I'm sure they'll have a better insight into your question :)

Ask the native Tibet population, with all occupation and violence against them its even worser than what the Americans did to the native Americans.You get a pretty good clue. :-)

[[aps]gnat 28]

There is nothing valuable coming from china that would work as barging factor to force the west to stay put.

Your joking right. Destabilisation of that corner of the world would bring about a serious global recession! China can pretty much do what it likes.

This whole thing going bad would certainly be a good way to cover-up that the fact that their growth is really much less than the reported 7.8% !

Hows that for a conspiracy theory?

Anyway, its all ironic, given an example that a Chinese and Japanese consortium are trying to buy land in Australia !

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2012/s3581617.htm

Other examples have been Chinese companies grabbing for fertile, food or resource producing land (Africa, South America and Australia).

But various investigations suggest the Chinese government is providing the loans, and the terms and conditions are the "asset" has to be handed to them after X (30? ) years ......

But to be fair, they're not the only country looking to secure future land resources for their peoples need.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Gnat;2228291']Your joking right. Destabilisation of that corner of the world would bring about a serious global recession!

You have it the other way around: there's already a global depression, and destabilisation will come as a consequence of that. :)

[[aps]gnat 28]

You have it the other way around: there's already a global depression, and destabilisation will come as a consequence of that. :)

Semantics on cause-and-effect.

= "global depression" ? I know theres still a lot further the whole globe can fall ..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression -- we are all too interdependent than 80 years ago.

= Japan and China spending time, money and people on a conflict will hardly be good for business globally.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Gnat;2228317']Semantics on cause-and-effect.

On the contrary: nothing' date=' except for the export of the manufacturing base to the third world, in conjunction with zero interest policy by CBs in developed countries, is to blame for the global depression, thus destabilisation, thus whatever comes next. :) Same as it always was, see Great Depression of 1920s-1940s - only alleviated by the what came next.

I know theres still a lot further the whole globe can fall

Like a world war between overpopulated nations.

Japan and China spending time, money and people on a conflict will hardly be good for business globally.

Destruction of excesses of the past is good destruction, the world may be reforged stronger after the conflict(s).

[[aps]gnat 28]

Destruction of excesses of the past is good destruction, the world may be reforged stronger after the conflict(s).

!! ..... wow, I think most dictators, tyrants and despots of the past have said something similar.

[jefferspang 2]

Did it ever occur to you that the actions of fanatical Chinese citizens does not necessarily reflect the views of the Chinese Government and the majority/rest of the Chinese citizens? This is the equivalent of the British National Party protesting the deportation of all minorities in UK, does it reflect the view of the rest of UK?? It is true the killings are not systematic, but the crimes were known even to the highest level of order (Emperor Hirohito) and their allowance of continuity makes them responsible for the soldier's action. As I have said for the nth time, they also DENIED the war crimes despite first hand accounts and evidence against Japan.

Furthermore, I don't know how you got the idea that it was Japanese before WWII. The Diaoyu islands belong to the Chinese Sui Dynasty (581-618) after discovering it when battling the neighbouring nation of Liuqiu, before the Japanese invaded it in the 1900s' during the first Sino-Japanese war. I fail to see how Japanese historic claims can be any more credible than the Chinese one. Also I can't understand the whole 'Earth Foredome' bit and what it has to do with this so I'll just blow past it.

As for your 'rest of the world' view, I'll have to disagree. Seeing as the American Government have a pretty dim view of the Diaoyu island dispute, they couldn't care less. China, wether you like it or not is becoming a larger economic powerhouse every minute and the west wouldn't want to provoke either China or Japan over some pieces of rock that they will not benefit from. If worse comes to worse and China/Japan takes military action, the most that will come out of the self-proclaimed world policers mouth is 'bad china!', then they will go on with the rest of the day like nothing has happen. If you really think that China has no economic influence in the world, may I suggest you pick up a copy of the Economist or at least read some reputable online blogs like BBC's Stephanie Flanders. It is ridiculous in this day and age you think China has no influence over the world.

Finally - I know this is OT so I'll say once and for all - Tibet is not as suppressed as the media puts it out to be. China still allows the Tibetan monks (which accounts for 10% of the population) to practice their religion. The only thing these upper-class of Tibetan society complain is the inflow of Chinese Hans from mainland to settle into Tibet. They're afraid that the Chinese Han's are resettling into Tibet and hence corrupt the Tibetan's ethnicity; this is Xenophobia. Did you know that the Tibetans are allowed more human rights than the ethnic Hans? Did you know that Tibet isn't actually asking for full independence, only Autonomy so they can still benefit from China? And did you also know that China did not commit genocide in Tibet the likes of what happen to the native Indians? Do.Some.God.Damn.Research!

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Did it ever occur to you that the actions of fanatical Chinese citizens does not necessarily reflect the views of the Chinese Government and the majority/rest of the Chinese citizens? This is the equivalent of the British National Party protesting the deportation of all minorities in UK, does it reflect the view of the rest of UK??

In this case, you won't find three strangers standing together on the street without government sanction.

It is true the killings are not systematic, but the crimes were known even to the highest level of order (Emperor Hirohito) and their allowance of continuity makes them responsible for the soldier's action. As I have said for the nth time, they also DENIED the war crimes despite first hand accounts and evidence against Japan.

Do you want to also hold Germans responsible for the actions of their forefathers?

Furthermore, I don't know how you got the idea that it was Japanese before WWII. The Diaoyu islands belong to the Chinese Sui Dynasty (581-618) after discovering it when battling the neighbouring nation of Liuqiu, before the Japanese invaded it in the 1900s' during the first Sino-Japanese war. I fail to see how Japanese historic claims can be any more credible than the Chinese one. Also I can't understand the whole 'Earth Foredome' bit and what it has to do with this so I'll just blow past it.

These uninhabited rocks appear to hold a lot of irrational value to the Chinese, though the history of these islands is in favour of the Japanese post-WW II.

A claim is not enforcement.

P.S. What of Taiwan? :D

---------- Post added at 05:10 ---------- Previous post was at 05:07 ----------

Gnat;2228346']!! ..... wow' date=' I think most dictators, tyrants and despots of the past have said something similar.[/quote']

They're not that benevolent, it's just something that keeps the world going round. Consolidation of peoples in the climax of an irrational hate, dispute, or war is always a good outcome.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Japan, U.S. joint drill to defend remote islands opens to media

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2012/09/183810.html

GUAM, Sept. 22, Kyodo

Media organizations observed a joint drill Saturday of Japan's Ground Self-Defense Force and the U.S. Marine Corps on the western Pacific island of Guam, aimed at strengthening their ability to defend remote islands from foreign assault.

The drill was conducted amid mounting tensions between Japan and China over a Japanese-controlled islet group in the East China Sea claimed by China and Taiwan. The island group is known as the Senkakus in Japan, Diaoyu in China and Tiaoyutai in Taiwan.

In the drill, aimed at regaining control of an island captured by foreign forces, the Japanese and U.S. troops were seen leaving small boats to land on the northern shore of Guam. After landing, the GSDF troops advanced with rifles to "retake" the island.

The GSDF said the two countries conducted the exercise without envisioning any specific island or foreign country.

The GSDF and the U.S. Marines previously conducted joint drills at training ranges on the U.S. West Coast and in mountainous areas of Japan. Saturday's drill was the first of its kind to be held between the two countries to enhance their capability to defend remote islands.

The U.S. troops who participated in the latest exercise belong to the 3rd Marine Expeditionary Force headquartered at Camp Courtney in Uruma, Okinawa Prefecture, while the Japanese troops are from the GSDF's Western Army, whose territory covers Japan's southernmost main island of Kyushu and remote islands off Kyushu.

The U.S. Marines and the GSDF began the 37-day joint drills on Aug. 21 at Andersen air force base on Guam, Tinian Island in the Northern Mariana Islands, and in waters from Okinawa in the north to Tinian Island in the south. Some 40 GSDF troops from Japan are participating in the drill.

==Kyodo

Information war FTW.