Controls Scheme & User Interface Feedback

[dmarkwick 261]

I can't believe people are in favour of the scroll list or the current weapon mechanics. Jesus wept. Tactical vests apparently don't exist and we're subject to World War I infantry mechanics.

No no no, don't confuse a disagreement with one thing with agreement for another thing: I certainly did not say I'm in favour of the scroll list. In fact I distinctly remember saying exactly the opposite.

[pathetic_berserker 4]

We need the remove the irrationality, surrounding the number row keys from the equation, because if things stay the same for weaponry and equipment, Smookie's animations go down the toilet. Please, please don't lie to yourselves.

"Say again". How exactly will Smookies effort be flushed by the ability to micro manage AI with the number keys, if thats what you wish to do?I don't see the conection on my keyboard, and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say BIS are probably a step ahead of you on this one

You'll know it's THE game when you can kill somebody with a TOW missile 3 km away. I can't believe people are in favour of the scroll list or the current weapon mechanics. Jesus wept. Tactical vests apparently don't exist and we're subject to World War I infantry mechanics.

Um twisting my words here, I did't imply ArmA was THE game because it's fidelity is reaching holodeck levels of realism. I meant that what we get with the AI controlls is what makes ArmA, you cant say

I want to leave everything as it is, as OFP was, as ArmA II is,

then claim to able scrap the AI command keys without an equaly detailed alternative and still say the game is ARMA. And as I've said knowing just a few 1-0 shortcuts for AI can mean some complex orders can be issued very quickly for those that are prepared to learn them. If you don't want to learn them, or are not prepared to play the game knowing commanding is your handicap, then this isn't the game for you. And there are plenty of games out there that will probably cater to your need of instant gratification. Those games maybe gone within a year or two, but there will be replacements or the players may choose to return to ARMA, wich will probably still be here.

And as for your dislike of the scroll, well theres always a compromise and l prefer it to mousing over a rose.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Pathetic_Berserker

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I'm done in this thread, since I'm the one answering technical questions and not worrying about superficial things, furthermore, I think everything had been sufficiently explained in previous posts: from number row weapons/equipment mechanics, to in-vehicle interaction, to automatic AI command toggle via unit selection and various options for the remaining few Actions: Single key/button, radial gesticulate menu, radial interactive menu.

I hope they didn't outsource their UI artists and designers to standalone DayZ.

P.S.

To everyone else still not "getting it", count how many times during the following demonstration the player had to resort to AI command,

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Hint: zero point (zero). If the entire demonstration at a world-class Entertainment Expo bases itself around the player and his interaction with the world, then the next course of action is self-evident, especially when you look at those smooth transitions, reload animations, stances and otherwise fluid gameplay.

As the player switches to his sidearm via the scroll list at 2:10, one of the Demi-Gods remarks, "The controls are in no way final, it may feel a bit clumsy now, but we're still evaluating."

By the way, one part of the interface looks entirely complete: the Gear (G Key) menu - looks Great!

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Second(Third?)-in-Command Officer comments on AI Command menu at 10:13, "Last year, we were still showing the old system and right now we're in the middle of prototyping the interface (that command our AI)."



*A New Hope for the Age of Reason*

Edited August 31, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[dmarkwick 261]

I'm done in this thread, since I'm the one answering technical questions and not worrying about superficial things, furthermore, I think everything had been sufficiently explained in previous posts: from number row weapons/equipment mechanics, to in-vehicle interaction, to automatic AI command toggle via unit selection and various options for the remaining few Actions: Single key/button, radial gesticulate menu, radial interactive menu.

I hope they didn't outsource their UI artists and designers to standalone DayZ.

Well, you're certainly the one explaining your view of the ideal UI, we all have our ideas :)

[arigram 0]

My apologies, has the radial menu from Carrier Command: Gaea Mission been discussed?

It looks quite usable and visually appealing.

[4 IN 1 0]

No, because someone here hated them:P

[arigram 0]

I for one, am against the idea of having the same keys performing very different actions.

Using number keys to select weapons and accessories is one of the most common actions, especially during highly tense situations where their use would be a learned instinctual action of important -personal- gameplay concequences.

Squad command can also be intense if you are micro-managing AI during a firefight or like to play removed-from-battle strategy. So, in this sense, the action has important -squad-level- gameplay concequences.

These two approaches will be combined in a quick reaction situation but are of different mental processing.

In short, they are not compatible actions and same keys should not be used for them.

Even more so, if you are using the same keys for example to select vehicle positions or views.

It is very much against Human-Interface-Guidelines.

Having the keypad handling one thing and the top row number keys another, makes much more sense, the only negative being that it requires a keyboard with a numpad (for some time I used to own one without, so I can sympathise).

[dmarkwick 261]

I think the idea of contextual keymapping is fine, given a suitable visual cue.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Having the keypad handling one thing and the top row number keys another, makes much more sense, the only negative being that it requires a keyboard with a numpad (for some time I used to own one without, so I can sympathise).

An impractical solution, which we have given thought: the second negative is either being forced to take your hands off either WASD, or the mouse.

Number row function toggle between AI command and weapons/equipment selection and/or in-vehicle interaction would be a temporary fix, because later, AI command interface would have to be either scrapped or reworked in some meaningful way as not to conflict, or overpower the basic functionality of a single fighting unit - the player.

---------- Post added at 11:06 ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 ----------

My apologies, has the radial menu from Carrier Command: Gaea Mission been discussed?

It looks quite usable and visually appealing.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/79438515/vlcsnap-2012-08-31-18h56m43s137.jpg

Not this particular design/configuration, but the general concept is well-understood, see Problem 2 on the first page. I only have ideas about the Action (scroll) menu being ported on a similar layout, BIS would have to work their majik if they wanted to do that for AI command.

[dmarkwick 261]

IMO using a dynamic radial would be a good alternative solution for command. But, this is old territory now :)

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

If AI interface problem is to be solved, we need to go through every single command tree and every command in that tree from movement and squad formations to alert modes, and then see what we can throw out, relocate, consolidate. I don't have access to ArmA at the moment, otherwise I would review each AI command.

If we reduce them to a fine number, then you could port them onto a radial with two wheels of icons. Imagine the following, http://dl.dropbox.com/u/79438515/vlcsnap-2012-08-31-18h56m43s137.jpg with another identical radial wheel of 8 icons around the first one, making a total of 16.

[arigram 0]

I think you guys have run this subject to the ground, without reaching consensus, there is nothing else that I feel could be explored further unless we hear from the developers themselves or until there is more practical testing during the community alpha stage.

As long as controls are completely configurable, all sorts of input controllers are taken advantage completely, the UI can be re-arranged and at least basic HIGs and player opinions are put into practice, a solution will be found.

There is no perfect control, sacrifices will be made, some people will be more comfortable than others.

I wonder if Carrier Command lessons and possibly code (even if its another engine) is going to influence Arma 3. After all, why shouldn't it? The code itself could well be incompatible but the theory and practices of a sister project are valuable.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Consensus has been reached on the weapon and equipment selection, and possibly in-vehicle interactions, being relocated to the number row, then the problem of AI command arises: if BIS can spare the time/effort in refining the number of AI command and then making good iconography, a radial wheel similar to Carrier Command can be utilised, which would mean complete separation of vital controls.

Chicken or the Egg? :icon_mrgreen:

[dmarkwick 261]

I vote for opening up the UI to modders :)

[maddogx 13]

More moddability is always nice, but I believe the discussion is about creating the best and most intuitive default UI possible. :)

[pathetic_berserker 4]

I think you guys have run this subject to the ground, without reaching consensus, there is nothing else that I feel could be explored further unless we hear from the developers themselves or until there is more practical testing during the community alpha stage.

Well yes and no. It's been run into the ground alright but there was a lose agreement about how weapon select and AI command could co-exist till you came along ;).

It also agreed that some form of modable UI would benifit all, but the topic is kind of dead without some sort of idea of what BIS has planned.

If all keys were to remain as is, I'd still see no problem with AI command and weapon select sharing the same keys. You'll know the number keys are bound when your AI members are highlighted, and if your in the middle of commanding then your still have your 'f' key to change weapons. And I suppose we could still have a command rose under the space bar for those that don't mind losing thier mouse to tapping icons.

But I think at the end of day a modable UI is the only way to go, ArmA simply encompases too much to cater to everyones style of play. My earlier suggestion of the 3d wheel that could be configured to behave as either scroll or rose was actually inspired by a 3rd party system shell available for my smart phone, wich allows you to move between browsing modes. May still be too much to ask for however, being able to choose your 'menu' mode out of box and then have it open it up for modders aswell would be..... too good to be true.

Needless to say, some of us are going to be dissapointed. Just have to wait and see.

[dmarkwick 261]

More moddability is always nice, but I believe the discussion is about creating the best and most intuitive default UI possible. :)

Yes, it is, but I'm just injecting a small amount of pragmatism :) it's doubtful our ideas will be implemented :)

I'm of the opinion that, given the open moddability of the UI, the best solutions will float to the top of popular use.

[arigram 0]

Do you think that BI has the resource budget to have a complete modular and/or moddable UI?

I seriously doubt that beyond key and controller reconfiguration and possibly some sort of TOH panel rearrangement, UI moddability will remain as present.

[HKFlash 9]

The button for changing firing mode could be used to change the way you throw a grenade when one is selected.

[rye1 21]

The button for changing firing mode could be used to change the way you throw a grenade when one is selected.

As in?

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

The button for changing firing mode could be used to change the way you throw a grenade when one is selected.

Hmm... Hmm... HMM!

Very nice addition to our new system, example: if you press number key 5 for frag grenade, HUD weapon fire rate gets replaced with "Frag - throw" as default, by cycling F, you can select "Frag - roll", or "Frag - drop"; left-clicking of course deploys the grenade. Switching back to primary or secondary weapon by either number key 1 or 2, brings back fire rate display and normal fire functions are resumed.

Drop and roll functions are very good additions to the gameplay, especially with smoke grenades at LZs. Frag grenade drop could be used in indoor retreat scenarios, where you know the enemy is about to breach - he will be setting foot on a grenade if you time it right. :icon_mrgreen:

---------- Post added at 22:50 ---------- Previous post was at 22:45 ----------

As in?

Pliskin to the rescue. :p

ACE 2 has this, but with default ArmA II grenade throw animation and lack of physics, it looks like crap and the key combo to operate the grenade function cycle was something like shift+F I think? In ArmA III we could have number 5 for grenade, F for grenade function (throw, drop, roll) and left-click to deploy it either via throw, drop or roll. :) Of course, this is not a "must have", the dedicated number key selection for weaponry and equipment is a must have, though.

I suppose, if the Devs really wanted to have this, what would you need to re-do - 3 new animations for when you initiate either a throw, drop or a roll?

P.S. See how dedicated weapons keys bring us even more simulation capabilities? This is the best thing that could happen, after the dedicated weapons keys, since AFAIK 70 to 90% of buildings on Lemnos are enter-able - that's some epic potential right there.

Update: The F key could also serve as a range adjuster for the attached grenade launcher, when it is selected via number key 3 in my hypothetical scenario. EGLM, as well as the GP-25 (30) systems do have sight adjustment. Example: switching from primary weapon to the under barrel GL by tapping number key 3, switches the HUD info to "EGLM - 100 m" as default, F key cycles it through to 400 m range in 50, or 100 m increments.

---------- Post added at 23:45 ---------- Previous post was at 22:50 ----------

Update 2: Satchel timer could be cycled by the F key, once we map the satchels/explosives to a dedicated number key, like 8 for an example. Select satchel via key 8, cycle timer with the F key - max of 600 seconds, in 30, or 60 second increments, left-click to place satchel. Engineers and explosives experts would become a dedicated role with due diligence involved.

Lots of stuff can be done, once you unload the F key and bring dedicated weapon/equipment selection keys, and not necessarily by BIS themselves, all they have to do is provide the framework in the form of dedicated weapon keys, and ACE 3 will do the rest. :icon_mrgreen:

Edited September 3, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[rye1 21]

Thanks for the explanation.

[Joe98 90]

The developers assume we all use the standard 106 key keyboard. My suggestion is that each copy of the game comes with an especially designed 200 key keyboard.

As that is impractical, I will continue…. :)

Macros.

I have a keyboard with extra keys that can be programmed.

One key is my “emergency key†This key is at the bottom left corner so i can find it without having to look at it or search for it.

If my troops come under fire unexpectedly, I press the emergency key which issues a series of orders.

Select All

Go prone

Weapons free

Form Diamond

Other keys are programmed with other macros which means I can give orders very quickly.

There are a lot of possible orders. All the orders are listed. In the options screen the player assigns a few orders to a key and if the key is pressed those orders are carried out in that sequence.

.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Thanks for the explanation.

You're welcome. Hand grenade example would have sufficed, but I thought that the same concept/function can be used for other equipment, not to mention reiterating one more time the benefits of dedicated weapons keys, dedicated weapons keys, dedicated weapons keys. :p

[Guess Who 10]

Hmm... Hmm... HMM!

Very nice addition to our new system, example: if you press number key 5 for frag grenade, HUD weapon fire rate gets replaced with "Frag - throw" as default, by cycling F, you can select "Frag - roll", or "Frag - drop"; left-clicking of course deploys the grenade. Switching back to primary or secondary weapon by either number key 1 or 2, brings back fire rate display and normal fire functions are resumed.

Drop and roll functions are very good additions to the gameplay, especially with smoke grenades at LZs. Frag grenade drop could be used in indoor retreat scenarios, where you know the enemy is about to breach - he will be setting foot on a grenade if you time it right. :icon_mrgreen:

Though I would prefer frags to be thrown by default LMB and rolled by RMB. Dropping works by short klicking in either roll or throw mode. Ain't that kind of standard in FPSes?

P.S. See how dedicated weapons keys bring us even more simulation capabilities? This is the best thing that could happen, after the dedicated weapons keys, since AFAIK 70 to 90% of buildings on Lemnos are enter-able - that's some epic potential right there.

Absolutely ... :)

Update: The F key could also serve as a range adjuster for the attached grenade launcher, when it is selected via number key 3 in my hypothetical scenario. EGLM, as well as the GP-25 (30) systems do have sight adjustment. Example: switching from primary weapon to the under barrel GL by tapping number key 3, switches the HUD info to "EGLM - 100 m" as default, F key cycles it through to 400 m range in 50, or 100 m increments.

Update 2: Satchel timer could be cycled by the F key, once we map the satchels/explosives to a dedicated number key, like 8 for an example. Select satchel via key 8, cycle timer with the F key - max of 600 seconds, in 30, or 60 second increments, left-click to place satchel. Engineers and explosives experts would become a dedicated role with due diligence involved.

Lots of stuff can be done, once you unload the F key and bring dedicated weapon/equipment selection keys, and not necessarily by BIS themselves, all they have to do is provide the framework in the form of dedicated weapon keys, and ACE 3 will do the rest. :icon_mrgreen:

All those range adjstments should stay on one "dedicated" key combo (PgUp/PgDn) like in OA for weapon zeroing. Even timing of satchel. The "F" key should sta as a dedicated "Fire mode" key. Just saying ... :)

---------- Post added at 08:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:22 AM ----------

You're welcome. Hand grenade example would have sufficed, but I thought that the same concept/function can be used for other equipment, not to mention reiterating one more time the benefits of dedicated weapons keys, dedicated weapons keys, dedicated weapons keys. :p

Well, keep repeating that mantra ... ;)