Controls Scheme & User Interface Feedback

[dmarkwick 261]

:)

That's because you're using an inferior activation method, there's a reason I had listed three possible ones involving the mouse. :)

Glorious PC Master Race.[/center]

And would you rather construct a convoluted radial with everything included at the expense of new players, who won't be able to intuitively tell an elbow from their backbone, figuratively speaking? :)

Micromanaging retarded AI? I beg to differ. :)

We can certainly imagine an expanded design of the proposed octagonal radial, yours containing not 8, but 12 partitions, but you're at once insisting on sub-menus on the same radial with 12 more on top of the first "level. Can't accept it till I see it in action. :)

Oh, in the context of micromanaging AI that doesn't seem to know when it's under fire - sure, I do tell them to go prone and cry for daddy, though should that be normal?

Do you want to incorporate all of the commands currently found in ArmA II onto the MOST EPIC radial menu? :) Please, at the very least, do list all of the commands that you which to include.

It becomes an RTS if your own character movement, or concentration is diverted completely away from the threat at hand. See Rainbow Six Raven Shield AI left-click activation radial command menu. :(

Truth is revealed in conflict, truth will be reveal at release of ArmA III. :)

By the way, Pliskin has you in his trap! Now, the dedicated weapons keys have full authority and subordination of the AI command menu and can safely relocate to the number row keys. http://i0.kym-cdn.com/profiles/icons/tiny/000/090/711/Uncel%20Dolan.gif

Well, OK you've had you day in the sun and now you're a little woozy. Your simplification ideas are a fail, not merely because they're a bad idea, but because we can be sure they won't be removed by BIS. Your main hope for your own ideas is that BIS open up the UI for extensive modding.

Your notion that ArmA should become just another FPS shootemup are now getting rather tiresome I'm afraid.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Well, OK you've had you day in the sun and now you're a little woozy. Your simplification ideas are a fail, not merely because they're a bad idea

Outstanding argumentation.

Your main hope for your own ideas is that BIS open up the UI for extensive modding.

You mean your best hope, seeing as it is you who suggests to this day to delegate basic game design to modders? :)

Your notion that ArmA should become just another FPS shootemup are now getting rather tiresome I'm afraid.

We've gone through that, dedicated weapon selection keys and intuitive radial AI command menu as seen in MadDogX's example won't turn ArmA into COD, but keep the hysteria up. :)

[dmarkwick 261]

You mean your best hope, seeing as it is you who suggests to this day to delegate basic game design to modders? :)

Pragmatism. The chances of your ideas becoming manifest are very, very small indeed.

We've gone through that, dedicated weapon selection keys and intuitive radial AI command menu as seen in MadDogX's example won't turn ArmA into COD, but keep the hysteria up. :)

I'm sure MadDogX appreciates being used as a combination fall guy/posterboy :D

In any case, your simplification ideas are just.... ideas. My posts hardly constitute hysteria. And it's a poor argument that any argument against your ideas become hysterical CoD raves. I'm not worried about ArmA becoming CoD, I'm only concerned that it remains ArmA. Implementing your ideas would be moving away from that, most definitely.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Pragmatism. The chances of your ideas becoming manifest are very, very small indeed.

However slim, I have already won the battle. :) And not against you.

I'm sure MadDogX appreciates being used as a combination fall guy/posterboy :D

We're working in tandem here, if you hadn't noticed. Same concept, different inclusion of commands.

In any case, your simplification ideas are just.... ideas.

Not my ideas, nothing is new under the Sun, I'm just recycling the best there is. Are you saying dedicated weapons keys will not see the light of day to keep the purists salivating over scroll lists?

Implementing your ideas would be moving away from that, most definitely.

Ballistic curves will somehow change? View distances will get engine-limited to 200 metres? Jump mechanics would be introduced as a consequence of an intuitive AI GUI & dedicated equipment keys?

:)

[Nicholas 5]

Stop feeding the troll.

[dmarkwick 261]

Iriquois, you must really try and stay in context because you're really starting to sound like you have problems listening. Or at least, acknowledging.

What I said:

In any case, your simplification ideas are just.... ideas.

What you replied:

Are you saying dedicated weapons keys will not see the light of day

See the disparity? I say one thing and you answer with whatever you decide is an obvious crowd-pleaser, regardless of context.

What I said:

Implementing your ideas would be moving away from that, most definitely.

What you replied:

Ballistic curves will somehow change? View distances will get engine-limited to 200 metres? Jump mechanics would be introduced as a consequence of an intuitive AI GUI & dedicated equipment keys?

You see? You cannot answer one concern by deflecting it with an answer to something that was never voiced.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I'm just following your modus operandi and not dissecting point-by-point, instead quoting a whole post and not replying in context.

Iriquois, you must really try and stay in context because you're really starting to sound like you have problems listening. Or at least, acknowledging.

Do you acknowledge, then, the viability of dedicated keys for weapon selection and operation on the number row keys? Yes or no.

If yes, then the question of AI command GUI comes up, wherein we differ: you want to include everything, I'm advocating for a CQB immediate area package in the form of 8 to 12 icons on a single radial.

As a post scriptum to end this discussion: Perhaps, more people would show up to continue the discussion from either point, who actually have the vision of utility and do play other titles, if the mods hadn't banned them already. To my recollection only you, Smurf, CarlGustaff, MadDogX and myself have participated in any meaningful capacity here - the rest were either lurkers, or trolls in this thread. :(

Edited September 23, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[dmarkwick 261]

Oh I see, it's my fault you answer difficult questions with non-sequiturs. Of course.

Toodles.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I've been using the 2x8 radial system in Realsoft3D since it was first invented, and I had no problems adapting to it - best thing ever wrt GUI. You'd be amazed how quickly you memorize these motoric skills, I think they call it "muscle memory". Two rings, you get a short move and a long move (mouse/compass sensitivity can be adjusted), and it's not an issue at all. Three I think would borderline problematic, but I wouldn't know without testing. GUI real estate might also be an issue. I feel the same way about a 10 or 12 slot single radial system as well. Angled directions with the mouse are easy (combined with straight angles). But adding "how many degrees" of an angle may leave you searching for it. But of course, might be flexible as well :)

Why wouldn't it work with WASD (I just picked whatever made sense to me, it's supposed to be flexible)? You might have to stop for a split second to issue the command, but (in my setup) it's the hold RMB then drag direction and let go at highlighted item that causes the selection/confirmation. A RMB click doesn't qualify. Hold RMB for a user preferenced delay (50-300ms). If a key is already pressed, it will show that rose. If another is pressed while first is still held, that one takes precedence.

"Config" for a typical 2*8 rose layout:

1) Rose ring size and position on screen.

2) Rose element/box size that senses the mouse position. Small gives more gap.

3) Compass helper needle size and opacity. Useful to some.

4) RMB Popup delay in milliseconds.

5) Every selection can be made "context sensitive" using a list of expressions (similar to addAction expressions).

Formation example: You may typically only use three formations on a regular basis, so you remove/comment formations from that rose that you don't need. Now we can't have box formation, 360 ring infantry defensive perimeter, or herringbone vehicle (infantry version don't apply in Arma) formations at all, because the list (9?) already exceeds maximum capability. But hey, in your new 16 slot rose you can position/plug in new formations in the slot that makes the most sense to you, and setup the expression so that only the valid one shows up depending on your situation (air/vehicle/infantry), and still you only have only four slots taken making it extremely clean. "While learning" the scan process to find what you're looking for is made much shorter compared to reading through the list every time.

One limitation may be the need for gaming compliant keyboards for 100% operation. Although it shouldn't cause more problems than I already have in some games pressing multiple keys simultaneously.

Speaking of Controls Scheme - something I dearly miss are filters in the keybind menu: Type command name in one field, and only commands containing that string shows up. Type a bind in the other field, and only the bound keys relevant to that specific key shows up. Arma is quite complex, and we do spend some time giving away some do's and dont's to newbies. It's always a nightmare finding where in a list a certain bind is located. No, I don't want it to be made super simple, just make it easier to work with.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Carl, theory is great, but certain standards have been set on PC regarding the fluidity of gameplay, which a WASD radial menu doesn't allow for. See Crysis 1 example.

Here's a console implementation of your system in a miniature,

ulQT0d25okk

Menu action starts at 10 minutes 30 seconds. I know of no game on PC which doesn't use a radial menu solely with the mouse.

I remembered something, Carl: you not wanting to relocate formations, alert states and other misc stuff to the Numpad isn't rational, since any laptop over 15" does have one, and anything below this form-factor will not be able to play ArmA III. Probably. Although, Clevo's W11ER is an exception. :o

[chortles 263]

And it's a poor argument that any argument against your ideas become hysterical CoD raves. I'm not worried about ArmA becoming CoD, I'm only concerned that it remains ArmA. Implementing your ideas would be moving away from that, most definitely.

In fairness, you've got a decent motivation... I believe we just have rather different ideas of what ARMA is "supposed" to "be".

I'm actually much more concerned with "immediate area command" than "more comprehensive command", but then again that's because all I ever did with ARMA 2 AI if I ended up commanding was essentially "move here" for the squad, "heal" with medic, and "target <armor>" with anti-tank. :D

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I'm actually much more concerned with "immediate area command" than "more comprehensive command", but then again that's because all I ever did with ARMA 2 AI if I ended up commanding was essentially "move here" for the squad, "heal" with medic, and "target <armor>" with anti-tank. :D

Whether he likes it, or not, immediate area CQB is the topic of utmost importance, seeing as there will be a lot of urban environments on Lemnos, and having an unwieldy AI interface in the middle of a street fight is not something most players find enjoyable.

For "Advanced AI Command" there are always formations, alert states, which could be relocated to the far reaches of the keyboard, because they are not "death sensitive". : D What I'm saying here is: if people find the need to change their squad formations in combat, they're doing it wrong.

[chortles 263]

Whether he likes it, or not, immediate area CQB is the topic of utmost importance, seeing as there will be a lot of urban environments on Lemnos, and having an unwieldy AI interface in the middle of a street fight is not something most players find enjoyable.

For "Advanced AI Command" there are always formations, alert states, which could be relocated to the far reaches of the keyboard, because they are not "death sensitive". : D What I'm saying here is: if people find the need to change their squad formations in combat, they're doing it wrong.

I would answer this differently: As long as I can avoid dying in the middle of a street fight, I'll be okay controls-wise, since if I wanted to have to deal with my AI I would be looking for cover to hide behind first. :D Then again, the "context-sensitive crosshairs" thing was right out of ARMA 2... or as I'd do squad commanding, "Press Space to Select All, then aim at an area and then scroll-wheel to and LMB click Move There".

Again, we have no idea what the supposedly-playtested (that may be on hold thanks to the absence of you-know-who) alternate AI command interfaces are supposed to look like, much less how they were intended to work.

[Guess Who 10]

Whether he likes it, or not, immediate area CQB is the topic of utmost importance, seeing as there will be a lot of urban environments on Lemnos, and having an unwieldy AI interface in the middle of a street fight is not something most players find enjoyable.

Fully agreed.

For "Advanced AI Command" there are always formations, alert states, which could be relocated to the far reaches of the keyboard, because they are not "death sensitive". : D What I'm saying here is: if people find the need to change their squad formations in combat, they're doing it wrong.

Or let's face it: they adopted to the quirks in Arma's implementation of combat behavior bound to formations ... :p

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Here's a console implementation of your system in a miniature,

Not at all :) Due to use of submenus this takes way to long to navigate, and you tend to rely on "mind memory" rather than "muscle memory" wrt where to navigate to. But of course assign to anything you choose if the WASD qualifyer keys bothers you. However, as I see it, you can't do all current commands in less than 8 compass roses (not all filled to the limit of course).

Menu action starts at 10 minutes 30 seconds. I know of no game on PC which doesn't use a radial menu solely with the mouse.

Not sure what you mean. OFP2 DR used mouse control, or only keyboard? I thnk I only found out the keyboard approach, which was a nightmare.

I remembered something, Carl: you not wanting to relocate formations, alert states and other misc stuff to the Numpad isn't rational, since any laptop over 15" does have one, and anything below this form-factor will not be able to play ArmA III. Probably. Although, Clevo's W11ER is an exception. :o

It's not so much about wanting as it is how practical it is. Sure, you might be able to squeeze in 9 formations on the numpad, maybe even get them semi good organized, but you won't get the GUI feedback from it that way like you would on a rose. A rose could have graphical elements showing pictures of the formations as well making them clear to the new guy, until he chooses to turn off that aid. Lack of feedback is one of the major faults in the current GUI. "Open door", "Open door", "Climb ladder", "Climb ladder", "Attack grenadier", "Attack grenadier" - with no visual feedback on the command you're about to give.

Also, I'm not willing to completely remove the current command number system until we have experimented with something new and found it to work. So for me cycling weapons back and forth will do for now in order to retain the number system, again, for now. However, I would like to be able to free the number keys and not make them hardcoded, which is their problem now. Wouldn't be a hard problem implementing a listening service reacting to those keys, and selecting appropriate weapons based on your dynamic inventory. But right now, these low level commands cannot be executed in any other way except the number key input. I stress again, I do not guarantee (and neither should you :p) that a rewamp would be perfect to everyone. But without access to scripted versions of these low level commands (simulate a number sequence keypress, and be able to read what the readout of the dynamic lists are), I cannot even experiment and make proper requests for changes in the system.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Not at all :) Due to use of submenus this takes way to long to navigate, and you tend to rely on "mind memory" rather than "muscle memory" wrt where to navigate to. But of course assign to anything you choose if the WASD qualifyer keys bothers you. However, as I see it, you can't do all current commands in less than 8 compass roses (not all filled to the limit of course).

Still a console port solution for the PC, doesn't provide for a fluid gameplay, since your movement & other vital keys of the WASD area are used as modifiers to navigate the menu.

But of course assign to anything you choose if the WASD qualifyer keys bothers you.

How about we reassign the formations & alert states to the Numpad, since they don't belong on an intuitive radial menu, mkay? :)

Not sure what you mean. OFP2 DR used mouse control, or only keyboard? I thnk I only found out the keyboard approach, which was a nightmare.

Keyboard AFAIK.

It's not so much about wanting as it is how practical it is.

As practical as the current number row AI command string of 0-9. Have you already forgotten that Formations & Alert Modes in the current ArmA II system are located on the far out keys - "8" and "7" respectively?

HELL! This part of the AI command drop-down, scroll list menu could be retained even with dedicated weapons keys taking up space on the number row from key 1 to key 8. Keys 9 & 0 could be reserved for "formations" & "alert states".

Sure, you might be able to squeeze in 9 formations on the numpad, maybe even get them semi good organized, but you won't get the GUI feedback from it that way like you would on a rose.

Say what? Num 1 key - FORMATIONS -> a drop list opens up, selection via Num 1, Num 2, Num 3, Num 4, Num 5 - any number you like.

When you close the FORMATIONS drop list, you can now open up ALERT MODES with Num 2 -> selection is the same as with FORMATIONS.

The above is a copy of the current AI command system - you've played for 10 years with it already, why not gaEm some more?

A rose could have graphical elements showing pictures of the formations as well making them clear to the new guy, until he chooses to turn off that aid. Lack of feedback is one of the major faults in the current GUI.

Then you'd be gimping the purpose of the rose to be a fluid & flexible interface to encourage new players to actually *GASP* play the game.

Go back a few pages before the trolls came in, and you tell me what our layouts can't do, point by point, except for beloved formations & alert states.

Bottom line: our concept involves ONE KEY, one hotkey! On the other hand, you people want to bring redundant complexity into the game again, very similar to that "fluid" F-cycle key. *Chuckle*

---------- Post added at 17:15 ---------- Previous post was at 16:27 ----------

Also, I'm not willing to completely remove the current command number system until we have experimented with something new and found it to work.

Now there's something we can agree on, with some reservations: the dedicated weapons keys being priority, followed by the re-engineering of the action scroll menu, or even its complete demise. A temporary solution, as originally suggested, is the automatic function toggle of the number row keys: When a unit is selected via the F1-F12 keys, the row executes current AI command; with no units selected - the new weapon & equipment mechanics.

I've no doubt, that BIS have a spanking solution for everything in place - that's why they're taking so long with the Alpha. :)

Edited September 24, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Skipping the quoting, but think it'll make sense :)

1. 7-8 or Num 1-2 doesn't really matter, I still have to let go the mouse to get to those commands, or let go the WASD keys. While stressed, I tend to bump my mouse around when getting back and I have no idea where I'm looking. What I'm looking for is fluid gaming with hands placed where I like them rather than all over the place. Mouse gestures (with or without qualifier keys) came long before "consoles" (maybe not well implemented in games yet, so why not be first? :)) I chose held F for the Formation qualifier (RMB drag still required to actually open it) - if Num 1 makes more sense to you I won't stop you.

2. Formations and relevant commands from the setup I'm guessing you didn't bother to read: It's filled to the brink with all 16 slots used (have new formations and new formation commands that have been asked for in other wish threads). Engagement and squad security menu is also filled to the brink with all 16 slots used. If using numkey I wouldn't have achieved anything wrt expanding the current possibilities at all. In another post you claim nobody uses the broken watch commands - maybe because they are so broken? In my setup, which uses (again) all 16 possible slots, there is a couple of fixes (WATCH OBJNULL) and additions (WATCH AHEAD, WATCH RIGHT etc) to make it useful - keep in mind we're supposed to be able to "remote command" in this game. I really don't want to see this dumbed down. And yes, I am using these commands from time to time, useful in the A2 campaign, except I have to utilize the debugger to get the OBJNULL thing into effect. Problem is, I suck at doing it in an efficient manner - hence my request for a possibility to experiment on my own (access to low level commands via scripts). Now, go ahead and place these in your Numpad layout - it simply doesn't work because it's as limited as what we currently have, and in most cases just as intuitive (F vs 1 for formations, which is more intuitive?).

3. In order to play it you first have to understand it. Quickly, what is echelon right? In a staggered column, is leader to the left or right? Surrounded, get your guys into a 360° defensive perimeter, how long does it take? There is no room to add a 360° (coil would be sufficient) formation at all. A new player doesn't have a clue what these are for, graphical elements might change that and make him a better player in a shorter time. When familiar with it, turn off additional graphical elements, turn down the GUI opacity for that menu, turn off the compass needle indicator etc. I've played since OFP, and I still don't know most of the numeric combos to activate a certain command (without the search, find, press routine). Gimped? I think not. The game is very complex wrt controls, I'm hoping to lessen the steepness of the learning curve. Hell, maybe during setup it could ask you for a familiarity check where only total noobs gets the additional aid, with hint on where to deactivate it.

4. As I already explained those few pages back ;) the problematic ones are AI orders regarding 2 (Target) and 6 (Action), they are too dynamic wrt remote commanding, although my setup explains how to use some of it at least for local commanding within roses. See the Gearing, vehicle interaction, and object interaction rose, using drawn lines on the 3D screen (maybe even map for remote? hmmm) similar to house position indicator. So, I have a solution for most of it (frequent actions, certainly not custom ones because I wouldn't know where to put them), but only for local commanding, not remote.

5. Bottom line: One hotkey doesn't solve the issue - this is a very complex game with many commands and keybindings. As I see it, one hotkey only recreates OFP2 DR because you don't appear to understand the complexity. I came up with 7 16 slot roses to cover all the commands plus some needed new ones, and I'm positive I still haven't been able to get them all. Also, if flexible, it should allow you to setup your own rose in any way you fashion, completely locking out the commands you "never use" - until you actually need it and you go "oh darn" :D Or maybe add what you need to a new Frequent Rose :p Or add voiced insults to the Fuck you Rose. Point being that letters are way more intuitive than numbers, as far as being able to remember them - you choose your own association.

6. Uhm, so now I have to have a unit selected to change group formation? How about adding new behaviors? I currently have to use addAction for my own Combat Patrol script. I'd like to put it where it belongs, together with behaviors, but the system won't let me. Same for changes to self, like I have to use action (actually inside a menu, but still) to change my own voice mode from stealth to normal and so on (I'm into immersion :p).

Oh, and these are meant as operating the game in a complex way. It does under no circumstances replace the quick menu system, which is usually sufficient while under pressure, but not always. If anything, I'd like some of Arma1 functionality back in this one, wrt colored team selection.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I'm so sad, Carl. :(

Skipping the quoting, but think it'll make sense :)

1. 7-8 or Num 1-2 doesn't really matter, I still have to let go the mouse to get to those commands, or let go the WASD keys. While stressed, I tend to bump my mouse around when getting back and I have no idea where I'm looking. What I'm looking for is fluid gaming with hands placed where I like them rather than all over the place.

I get your point perfectly, Carl, and I will be honest - I won't read the rest of your theory.

Here's a substitute solution:

1) Implement a CQB AI command radial menu as outlined in the concepts of MadDogX and myself. Single hotkey activation & operation. (Middle Mouse Button?)

2) Implement a second AI command radial menu with 12-24 icons, which will include Formations, Alert States & other misc things. Single hotkey activation via a different one. (T key on the keyboard?)

Two keys, two separate radials - fluid operation on demand, hands on WASD everything is available in a comprehensive manner.

:)

---------- Post added at 20:12 ---------- Previous post was at 20:03 ----------

Damn, you're really forcing me to fire up paint on the second point to illustrate the menu. Well, if I can find time, I will.

[Nicholas 5]

Damn, you're really forcing me to fire up paint on the second point to illustrate the menu. Well, if I can find time, I will.

You seem to have enough time to post in the forums, why not fire up paint now?

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

2) Implement a second AI command radial menu with 12-24 icons, which will include Formations, Alert States & other misc things. Single hotkey activation via a different one. (T key on the keyboard?)

Full resolution: http://i45.tinypic.com/2emom0k.jpg

(Invisible) Selection pointer starts out at the centre of the middle hexagon upon menu activation -> Mouse over to highlight -> Release hotkey.

Thank me later.

[Nicholas 5]

That is not a good idea, Iroquois Pliskin. It takes up way too much of the screen.

---------- Post added at 14:51 ---------- Previous post was at 14:50 ----------

So far, I think MadDogX still has the best and most logical idea.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

That is not a good idea, Iroquois Pliskin. It takes up way too much of the screen.

Troll more.

So far, I think MadDogX still has the best and most logical idea.

His concept covers the first point which is CQB, if you want formations on a radial, this is what you get in additional to MadDogX's rose directly below the crosshair.

Clowns all around, nobody to discuss game mechanics with. :( People, where art thou?

[Nicholas 5]

I've got to ask, what do you think makes your idea such a good one?

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I've got to ask, what do you think makes your idea such a good one?

Provide an alternative. We're listening.

[Nicholas 5]

Provide an alternative. We're listening.

I'm asking a question. Why don't you answer it? What makes your idea such a good one?

Also, my post about your previous example was not trolling. I told you it was a bad idea, and I explained why: It takes up too much screen space. Not trolling.