More realistic/depressing feeling

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

"if the enemy truly believes that they will be shot or killed" did you get that bit? :) We cannot do that in a game, did you get that bit? But we can introduce an effective mechanism that deters a player who might ordinarily have lollipopped his position away with a sniper rifle or some other nonsense.

What the hell, an M249 SAW can't instill that belief in a rational, sane human being on the opposite end of the barrel? You're indulging in demagogy there, you sneaky rabbit, you. :)

http://ttp2.dslyecxi.com/basic_rifleman.html

Suppressive fire is typically done at a very rapid rate to begin with, which achieves fire superiority. Once fire superiority has been achieved, the suppressing element can slow the pace of their fire to facilitate ammo management, provided that they aim and pace their shots in a fashion that maintains effective suppression of the enemy.

http://dslyecxi.com/images/arma/ttp/suppression_fire_illustrated.png (129 kB)

Wait, you people want to actually "suppress" with your rifles and handguns? Clowns! :p

---------- Post added at 16:28 ---------- Previous post was at 16:24 ----------

So you want just the physiks simulated, fine so lets delete every shaking of the weapon when the player just ran or these bloody effects on death (I even dont like them :P)

Nope, those things actually feel genuine, and are part of the "physics", because of the distance traveled and the weight carried is directly responsible for fatigue. :P

What some people here are suggesting is closer to neural science and brain surgery. :D

[maturin 12]

Wait, you people want to actually "suppress" with your rifles and handguns? Clowns!

You prove yourself more a clown with every post.

Because of the relative balance of forces on a battlefield with mixed arms, it's only rational to suppress with the weapon that was designed for it. A SAW will dominate any firefight in which it is effectively employed. Depending on the situation, you can indeed suppress someone with a pistol or even hurled pebbles if you catch your little brother hiding behind a bed and unload on it.

I would take a crack at your reading comprehension skills, but you helpfully posted an image that demonstrates an entire fire element (including riflemen) laying down suppressive fire. So I guess your image comprehension ain't so great neither.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

You prove yourself more a clown with every post.

Because of the relative balance of forces on a battlefield with mixed arms, it's only rational to suppress with the weapon that was designed for it. A SAW will dominate any firefight in which it is effectively employed. Depending on the situation, you can indeed suppress someone with a pistol or even hurled pebbles if you catch your little brother hiding behind a bed and unload on it.

Which part of,

Suppressive fire is typically done at a very rapid rate to begin with, which achieves fire superiority. Once fire superiority has been achieved, the suppressing element can slow the pace of their fire to facilitate ammo management, provided that they aim and pace their shots in a fashion that maintains effective suppression of the enemy.

Is so difficult to understand?

I would take a crack at your reading comprehension skills, but you helpfully posted an image that demonstrates an entire fire element (including riflemen) laying down suppressive fire. So I guess your image comprehension ain't so great neither.

You're not making any sense: the fire element could be sporting 3 squads with 3 SAWs and rest with M16s to suppress a single fucking target - FIFTEEN men for ONE person. You people expect "suppression-derpression" to happen every single time no matter what.

CoD is down the corridor and out the window on the left.

P.S. To reiterate for the thick-skulled: handgun-nonsuppression correlation implies physical inability to intimidate the target in any way or form due to either 1) caliber of the ammunition used; 2) number of rounds available per magazine; 3) rate of fire for said handgun; 4) accuracy of fired rounds.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[HKFlash 9]

Iroquois: any weapon can be used to suppress. Some are better (machine guns) others are worst (pistols and Anti-Tank for example). But any weapon can be used for that purpose.

[-Coulum- 35]

Suppression

Suppression is the act of using fire and the threat of fire to deter enemy fire or action, as well as 'fix' the enemy in one place. As noted elsewhere, suppression is only effective if the enemy truly believes that they will be shot or killed if they don't take cover from the incoming enemy fire.

Thing is, in reality people are much more likiely to believe that they will be shot if they don't take cover. This is because their life is nothing they want to gamble with. In arma the player is able to make a calculated decision - their life is in no in danger whatsover. "Yeah I am under fire but the chances of me being hit are no more than 10%, I think I am going to duke it out". vs. reality, where "Holy shit I am in risk of dying, I am keeping my head down."People say that they would be able to calmly peek out and dispatch those suppressing them - and maybe would- but the fact is that no one knows until they have been in that situation, and when in that situation, logical thinking no longer occurs. Like mentioned before its fight or flight that takes over and humans have very little control other which we perform. Evidently, from the length and rounds expened in firefights, people tend to do the flight more than the fight. And I don't mean that most people start crying and weeping for their mom, I just mean that they decide to keep their head down and live a bit longer rather than peak up to risk their lives in order to try and shoot some guy 300 metres away who may well have a bead on his very position. Now when it comes to CQB things would change considerably as often flight is no longer a viable option to preserving ones life. This is why close combat is considered to be so bloody and intense. people have no other option but to fight. In longer range firefights however (which I think is what is being discussed here) flight becomes a more viable option than fight.

The fact is arma simply cannot simulate that sense of fear for ones life no matter how many effects, sound effects, respawns etc. etc. it has. Think about it long and hard. Popping out of cover may very well get you killed. There is no coming back from that. Are you going to do it just so you can try to kill some other guy. very few people will. It's like playing russian roulette with yourself. Why bother stick up your head when you are perfectly safe as it is. Imagine playing arma with a gun to the head, which goes off when you die. would any of us play in the same way? Would we even play at all?

Any way, the whole point of all that rambling is that "suppressive fire" in arma will never be as effective as it is in reality, because arma can't simulate that fear. This in turn makes combat in arma unrealistic and rather gamey. Thus, to me, there is need for some sort of system that encourages the player to play at least a bit more realistically. a bit of shaking while under fire would be a step towards more realism if you ask me because nobody would be as eager to pop up and return fire. No its not real fear but it would achieve more realistic results than what we currently have.

Edited August 24, 2012 by -Coulum-

[froggyluv 2136]

Aww, but where's the "great physical stress" with bullets merely flying around, not hitting the subject? That's an over-reaction by the nervous system, bordering on system shutdown due to extreme pain.

.

Wrong. Most adreneline dumps can happen as a prelude to the actual confrontation not the shock that ensues from actual being struck -tho adreneline also plays a heavy part here. It's easy to play macho Chairborne Ranger at your PC munching chips while your life is on the line talking of "bullets merely whizzing nearby" but actually being shot at while witnessing your good buddy get his brains shot out right next to you can have profound effects.

Ever watch MMA or UFC? One of THE top coaches of these guys Lloyd Irvin talks about it here when he woke up to a home invasion: Start at 17:53

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Now I've met Lloyd and can attest he is one tough SOB - but this just shows that a lifelong of combat training doesn't guarentee you a stress free combat life. Of course, battle hardened Combat Vets eventually learn to handle these dumps as a necessity but they aren't the majority of folks out there fighting.

Edited August 24, 2012 by froggyluv

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Iroquois: any weapon can be used to suppress. Some are better (machine guns) others are worst (pistols and Anti-Tank for example). But any weapon can be used for that purpose.

Obviously, but the derps here expect me to roll on the floor in horror and psychological agony due to some artificial gimmick system and not fire back at them. I know the characteristics of M9 in ArmA, that's why an opponent wielding one is usually a non-threat - not my problem that it's 9 mm and holds only 15 rounds with crap accuracy - update it in some way, and we'll adapt accordingly.

---------- Post added at 17:14 ---------- Previous post was at 17:10 ----------

Wrong. Most adreneline dumps can happen as a prelude to the actual confrontation not the shock that ensues from actual being struck -tho adreneline also plays a heavy part here. It's easy to play macho Chairborne Ranger at your PC munching chips while your life is in the line talking of "bullets merely whizzing nearby" but actually being shot at while witnessing your good buddy get his brains shot out right next to you can have profound effects.

That was tongue in cheek as an other extreme to the proposed solutions.

Ever watch MMA or UFC? One of THE top coaches of these guys Lloyd Irvin talks about it here when he woke up to a home invasion: Start at 17:53

Now I've met Lloyd and can attest he is one tough SOB - but this just shows that a lifelong of combat training doesn't guarentee you a stress free combat life. Of course, battle hardened Combat Vets eventually learn to handle these dumps as a necessity but they aren't the majority of folks out there fighting.

Regarding the previous condition that you posted: good luck implementing time dilation in multiplayer. All I read previously is demagogy and bullshit, no one has proposed how the system would work, so it's still amusing.

[froggyluv 2136]

Regarding the previous condition that you posted: good luck implementing time dilation in multiplayer. All I read previously is demagogy and bullshit, no one has proposed how the system would work, so it's still amusing.

Who said every possible of effect of adrenaline dump should make it in? The point is and contrary to your 'expert opinion' -vison and fine motor control can and do become adversely effected to many under stress of a life threatening situation -not just wounds. It doesn't matter how many times you call them pussies or say only wounds create stress -you stay wrong everytime.

How it's implemeted is always up to the creators and their artistic vision of such an effect. It seems it's all the MP's getting sandy vag's over this -simple solution, server setting. Can you handle that?

Edited August 24, 2012 by froggyluv

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Who said every possible of effect of adrenaline dump should make it in? The point is and contrary to your 'expert opinion' -vison and fine motor control can and do become adversely effected to many under stress of life threatening situation -not just wounds. It doesn't matter how many time you call them pussies or say only wounds create stress -your stay wrong everytime.

In what way would the motor functions be affected? What I don't like is people putting themselves into these artificial environments and then come back screaming with their profound results... The UFC analogy is poor, two fighters are in a cage, there's no Flight in the equation - sure you can give up, but the fight doesn't have the same dynamics as it would in the real world.

How it's implemeted is always up to the creators and their artistic vision of such an effect.

Here's some artists,

UtRu7FAe3IY

Get my drift. :)

[ProfTournesol 956]

Here's some artists,

Get my drift. :)

And they dared to call "that" OFP.

[-Coulum- 35]

I think this would be more than enought to convince people that it would be better to keep their heads down rather than try and be a hero. The sway time and intensity would increase depending on the caliber of the incoming shots and the volume of fire. And this sway wouldn't be so much as to ruin CQB. It would occur if a shot passes within 5 metres or so of the player.

[froggyluv 2136]

In what way would the motor functions be affected? What I don't like is people putting themselves into these artificial environments and then come back screaming with their profound results... The UFC analogy is poor, two fighters are in a cage, there's no Flight in the equation - sure you can give up, but the fight doesn't have the same dynamics as it would in the real wor

Seriously? Read the Wiki again - "Loss of Fine Motor Skills". Listen above "My body locked up". As to your second point I don't know if it's a comprehension thing or your just trolling - it has nothing to do with the UFC per se :rolleyes:

A: It shows that a lifelong of combat training (and he is a self defense master as well) doesn't necessrily prepare you for the moment your life is seriously on the line. He suffered the effects of a body that can't properly process the surge of adrenaline, then recovered and disarmed the perps.

B: Its actually your statement of UFC which is a poor understanding of Fight or Flight response -that is the generic term for what can happen physiologically when immient danger is presented to an individual -not whether or not said individual actually has an escape route *sigh*

Your video only shows an awful representation of this effect -to be expected from an awful game...nothing more.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I think this would be more than enought to convince people that it would be better to keep their heads down rather than try and be a hero. The sway time and intensity would increase depending on the caliber of the incoming shots and the volume of fire. And this sway wouldn't be so much as to ruin CQB. It would occur if a shot passes within 5 metres or so of the player.

Never thought I'd ever see it, thanks a lot. This is doable, kinda mini-arm shake. As has been mentioned before, at the moment heart rate/involuntary hand movement increases with ground proximity shots, but clearly audible cracks and close passes get ignored.

Thoughts?

---------- Post added at 17:51 ---------- Previous post was at 17:47 ----------

A: It shows that a lifelong of combat training (and he is a self defense master as well) doesn't necessrily prepare you for the moment your life is seriously on the line. He suffered the effects of a body that can't properly process the surge of adrenaline, then recovered and disarmed the perps.

Everyone's nervous system response is different, otherwise there wouldn't be 99% the psychological problems existing today.

B: Its actually your statement of UFC which is a poor understanding of Fight or Flight response -that is the generic term for what can happen physiologically when immient danger is presented to an individual -not whether or not said individual actually has an escape route *sigh*

How am I not comprehending it? A generic term that can and is applied in practice: disengage, flee, engage again, given the opportunity. Refer to flanking. :rolleyes:

Edited August 24, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[froggyluv 2136]

Everyone's nervous system response is different, otherwise there wouldn't be 99% the psychological problems existing today.

And you ignore 99% of data stating how soldiers often suffer this or any facts which you'd rather not believe. Thanks for the above insight tho..

How am I not comprehending it? A generic term that can and is applied in practice: disengage, flee, engage again, given the opportunity. Refer to flanking.

Ok I'm done here.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

And you ignore 99% of data stating how soldiers often suffer this or any facts which you'd rather not believe. Thanks for the above insight tho.

No problem, enjoy your instant-PTSD.

[maturin 12]

Which part of,

Suppressive fire is typically done at a very rapid rate to begin with, which achieves fire superiority. Once fire superiority has been achieved, the suppressing element can slow the pace of their fire to facilitate ammo management, provided that they aim and pace their shots in a fashion that maintains effective suppression of the enemy.

Is so difficult to understand?

I doubt that you understand it, since you seem to think it doesn't anything other than validate my point.

Once you have fire superiority, you no longer need a heavy, automatic weapon to suppress. Fun fact, the U.S. military recommends that riflemen fire one aimed bullet every 1-2 seconds in order to continue suppressing a pinned target. So you are, err, flat-out wrong.

A PC screen cannot simulate the complex range of human reactions. What it can do is make gameplay momentarily more difficult to compensate for the mortal fear the player cannot feel. This the the point I made earlier, which you handily ignored in order to spout loud strawmen about hallucinations and loss of motor control.

You're not making any sense: the fire element could be sporting 3 squads with 3 SAWs and rest with M16s to suppress a single fucking target - FIFTEEN men for ONE person. You people expect "suppression-derpression" to happen every single time no matter what.

Yeah, or we could return to the real world, where a fire element is most likely a FIRETEAM with a single SAW, suppressing an entire position like a compound while the other fireteam flanks or artillery comes in. But sure, we could also make up bizarre scenarios in order to indulge your viewpoint.

[Smurf 12]

I have to quote myself again because this is going nowhere.

Guys, what games have a good supression system in yours opinion? This is a game and you have many limits to mimic those effects...

Let's build upon that instead of tail chasing, wall of text of meaningless discussions about the human mind and tournaments of "Who saw the goriest\brutal war video".

[froggyluv 2136]

No problem, enjoy your instant-PTSD.

PTSD is Adrenal burnout -that being the culmination of someone who has spiked their endocrine system for too long. It may also be coupled with severe imbalance of the HPA and Serotonin/Dopamine balance. I've lived with Addisons (adrenal insufficiency) long enough to know a thing about this.

[-Coulum- 35]

Really it doesn't matter what the physical effects of coming under fire are. They vary from person to person and are so unpredictable it is not worth debating about. What I see as the problem is the fact that arma is unable to simulate the fear for ones life, resulting in unrealistic gameplay. To compesate for this lack of fear something needs to be put in place to make the the palyer act realistically even if he isn't feeling true fear. For me, this would come in the form of a bit of weapon sway ie.

I think this would be more than enought to convince people that it would be better to keep their heads down rather than try and be a hero (more like how 99% of people would act in a combat situation). The sway time and intensity would increase depending on the caliber of the incoming shots and the volume of fire. And this sway wouldn't be so much as to ruin CQB. It would occur if a shot passes within 5 metres or so of the player.

Anyone think this would be a horrible idea? If so, I am interested to know why.

--Edit--

As has been mentioned before, at the moment heart rate/involuntary hand movement increases with ground proximity shots, but clearly audible cracks and close passes get ignored.

Thoughts?

yeah I think that ignoring sonic snaps is wrong as they would scare you just as much if not more than close impacts. I have read reports about soldiers in WW2 flinching at the mere sound of machingunefire, let alone sonic snaps or ricocheting that means you are actually under fire. I also dislike how in current arma the aiming seizures last for far too long, and are far too spastic. It should be shorter and much smoother, that way you must keep up fire on a target in order to continuously "suppress" him. currently a single burst to the ground infront of an opponent can leave him ineffective for a minute or more. If it was just a short period of extra sway, it would not cause as much frustration and mean that the enemy really has to work to keep you suppressed. It would also mean that if a teamate relieves you of suppression, you don't have to wait a minute to get calmed down and get back in the fight.

Edited August 24, 2012 by -Coulum-

[dmarkwick 261]

Obviously, but the derps here expect me to ...

Quite obviously, aside from the irrational views you hold that's already mentioned, you haven't really been following what people are proposing, or why. But hey, all's good, not like I'm forcing a gamestyle on anyone :) I'm all for server options. I can understand a desire for no gameplay suppression as much as I understand a desire for it. Half the time I play, I play with no suppression. When I'm feeling, you know, arcadey ;)

[kylania 568]

The real problem is people playing ArmA as a standard shooter compared to playing it as a milsim. I've had plenty of times where I've been suppressed by enemy fire, afraid to get up and peek around a corner or out from behind the log I fell down near lest I get hit by the bullets hitting all around me and not suffering the artificial hand shake and effects we currently have. But that's because I was playing a mission without respawn so death had some meaning instead of playing it as some round based "gamemode" thing.

We already have suppression, it's called taking the game seriously. :)

[-Coulum- 35]

We already have suppression, it's called taking the game seriously.

Yes you are right to a certain extent. taking the game seriously is one step in the right direction. But I think even those of us who do think we are taking it seriously don't fully realize how we still abuse the fact that we have no real fear.

For example, if we have an M16 with an 4x acog and see an enemy open up on us 350m away, most of us, even the serious ones, would take the time to scope in, line up the shot and take him down.

Whereas I think the average GI's response would be to simply fire off quick unaimed shots before ducking down behind cover and communicating where the enemy is so the SAW and rest of the fireteam can start opening up on his position so that he in in turn will get down - Allowing the average GI to take the time to prepare for a kill shot the next time that guy pops up, and so that a friendly fire team can advance on the position, under no enemy fire.

But besides, some extra weaponsway wouldn't really effect "serious players" since we are always taking cover anyways...

[CarlGustaffa 4]

It's all about abstractions, ease of implementation vs cost effectiveness, and playable balance wrt effect caused on player. Various mentions of ACE features make me laugh, since they are (and rightfully so) greatly simplified. I don't think I want backblast or overpressure effects in a game so heavily dependent on AI if AI can not (with reasonable cost) take these matters into account.

When would suppressive effects kick in? I vote everytime a snap sound is played (rather than a near actual hit). But this is problematic since you can't have AI have actual hearing abilities (actual sound vs abstraction of using numbers to represent only what can be achieved within reasonable cost) - I can't imagine any ways of making such "sense" cost effective, but feel free to prove me wrong. I've tried scripting approaches to help them out, but it's not all that great and probably not very net traffic effective.

So I'm starting to disagree with myself, but only from the technical detection pov (too complex to detect "proper suppression" efficiently for server AI, and I prefer things to be equal), rather than the artistic one. But I'm okay with grayscale now as part of the "simulation" (read: abstraction), I wasn't aware of this effect until I read the article further up there.

[maturin 12]

CarlGustaffa, haven't you been paying attention to TPW's sonic snap tracking script?

[-Coulum- 35]

Yes Fabrizios Bullet detection script in combination with TPW's suppress script is a work of art and they don't have half the capabilities BIS do in terms of the depth they can program things at. And we can already hear sonic cracks. Wouldn't it be fairly easy to just make it so a bit of sway is attached to each sonic crack?

excuse me if I am being ignorant, I truthfully don't know much about programming.