Steam discussion

[chortles 263]

I shall buy the full game solely if the eventual (?) DVD release requires only activation via Steam, and only activation. If patches are going to be released via Steam alone, with Steam controlling the timing and requiring a direct download & install - which AFAICT from other posts in this thread will be the case - I shall not buy the game.

I have no idea what you mean by "Steam controlling the timing and requiring a direct download & install", but here goes:

1. There will be a disc release for the full version, but it's just a Steam installer on a DVD with a product key voucher, and the installer is basically a "snapshot" build that was current as of when it was made, so if there haven't been any patches as of when the disc was made, then no further downloading should be required.

2. You can activate on Steam just from using the voucher.

3. If you install from the disc, I understand that the Steam client will download any updates past whatever your installer disc was made at. (People who download and install just receive the latest version.)

4. You do however get the subsequent option to turn off auto-updating: right-click the installed game in Steam Library, click Properties, click Updates tab, choose "Do not automatically update this game" in the drop-down menu, click Close.

5. You mentioned that "Digital downloads might be made via Internet cafes, etc., for installation on home PCs when DVDs are unavailable, but not if patches and other large files like required mods are only available via Steam for installation direct to the user's PC." Mods remain entirely outside of Steamworks and their install/setup/removal works exactly like it did back in Arma 2. If you're talking about stuff like "download beta patches at Internet cafe, copy to USB flash drive or external hard drive/burn to DVD, take home and install to home PC" however, that's intentionally a thing of the past. If you're at an Internet cafe that'll let you log into your own Steam account and install a Steam game though, you could (admittedly depending on the computer's permissions) install Arma 3 and receive the latest version that way, then either create a Steam backup installer of your own or copy the game folder itself and move that (the installer or the game folder) to your physical media to use at home.

Patching is entirely through Steam specifically because as voiced by the project lead it would be to the devs' benefit in that attempting to maintain patching/development for multiple versions of Arma was a burden that negatively affected further game development, as opposed to developing and patching only one version.

[orcinus 121]

I have no idea what you mean by "Steam controlling the timing and requiring a direct download & install", but here goes:

3. If you install from the disc, I understand that the Steam client will download any updates past whatever your installer disc was made at.

That is exactly what I mean.

As for your point 4, turning it off means the user will never be able to update / patch or whatever. Turning it back on risks incurring potentially very large bandwidth charges. The 1.60 CO patch was around 0.75 GB IIRC. Throw a few like that out every year or so, and in minor updates and betas, and for many people A3 will not be an economically viable proposition.

Glad to hear mod installation & management will remain independent of Steam - thank you. I think I was confused by some of the the "Steam Workshop" discussions.

However, I would personally never use an Internet cafe that let customers install anything on the machines. In any event, in many rural areas the nearest Internet cafe might be 30 - 50 km or more away. While some might let a known customer plug a laptop in (or use a free WiFi connection, which many cafes in places like TH & MY do) lugging a full desktop system to a cafe by a tuk-tuk, jitney, or whatever, isn't a practical option and not very practical even for those with access to a car.

Patching is entirely through Steam specifically because as voiced by the project lead it would be to the devs' benefit in that attempting to maintain patching/development for multiple versions of Arma was a burden that negatively affected further game development, as opposed to developing and patching only one version.

I understand that; I read the blog immediately after it was posted. While during development I fully accept (however disappointed I & others felt at the time) that Steam-exclusivity was a necessary step, post-release of the full game it can only limit potential sales (and that is by no means to say that Steam should be abandoned, which would be commercially absurd if not suicidal).

Indeed, if BIS is only going to be patching one version, I fail to understand - quite possibly due to my ignorance of the process - why that patch could not be made available separately. The core game files are common to all versions. Although localisation files differ, these are both relatively small and (I suspect) require less frequent or extensive updates. If so I see no great reason why the latter should not be made available exclusively via Steam. That combination might perhaps help to discourage piracy, which I abhor.

IMNSHO the core issue remains that Steam-only distribution - even if Steam-mandatory downloads are restricted to patches / updates - will deter many potential buyers.

[chortles 263]

As for your point 4, turning it off means the user will never be able to update / patch or whatever. Turning it back on risks incurring potentially very large bandwidth charges. The 1.60 CO patch was around 0.75 GB IIRC. Throw a few like that out every year or so, and in minor updates and betas, and for many people A3 will not be an economically viable proposition.

I don't recall any dev being on the record about whether the dual-track development and stable branches will continue into the post-release, but the talk about delta patching was basically "you'll only need to download the differences, not the whole file again, unlike what we had before!" Being bandwidth-conscious was on someone's mind at BI, it thankfully sems.

Glad to hear mod installation & management will remain independent of Steam - thank you. I think I was confused by some of the the "Steam Workshop" discussions.

The usual "fear, uncertainty and doubt" aside, it was made clear that for now (and up until they finally officially confirmed SWS support) the "user-generated content" would continuing to be implemented the exact same ways as with Arma 2 -- missions and mods alike -- and that Steam Workshop would never completely make redundant community Web sites like Armaholic or third-party applications such as the SIX Network applications. :) The only Steam Workshop integration that's confirmed is missions: that is, missions can be uploaded to Steam Workshop from the Editor and that missions will be downloadable from Steam Workshop through the game client. For legal and technical reasons Steam Workshop integration for mods is uncertain and thus unconfirmed, so the modding situation continues without change (for now).

However, I would personally never use an Internet cafe that let customers install anything on the machines.

Would you use an Internet cafe let you do all of the above steps? That is, log into your Steam account through the Steam client, install the game through the Steam client, create an Arma 3 Steam backup and then copy that to your physical media?

I understand that; I read the blog immediately after it was posted. While during development I fully accept (however disappointed I & others felt at the time) that Steam-exclusivity was a necessary step, post-release of the full game it can only limit potential sales (and that is by no means to say that Steam should be abandoned, which would be commercially absurd if not suicidal).

The emphasis on the "one version only" rationale seems to explicitly preclude any post-release non-Steam versions.

Indeed, if BIS is only going to be patching one version, I fail to understand - quite possibly due to my ignorance of the process - why that patch could not be made available separately. The core game files are common to all versions. Although localisation files differ, these are both relatively small and (I suspect) require less frequent or extensive updates. If so I see no great reason why the latter should not be made available exclusively via Steam. That combination might perhaps help to discourage piracy, which I abhor.

My understanding is that localization is being handled by Morphicon/Peter Games, whereas the "pre-full release" period (that is, the prior alpha and the current beta) is exclusively in English.

[Dwarden 1124]

i'm sorry to hear that,

but analogy "people complained about A2/OA patches being bigger than 10MB because they have cap limits and mobile internet or else"

considering we already had at that time differ byte incremental updates, it was nearly as small as you can do it w/o breaking some magical barriers ...

STEAM updates are now incremental and differ byte where possible (as long as it can calculate it inbetween data changes)

while it's not as good as our old tech :) it's definitely way smaller than theirs former non incremental no differ byte updates ...

so, we all must pressure on mobile ISPs to get rid of absurd bw caps and pricings ...

[orcinus 121]

So how large are these delta patches going to be? Does anyone know, even the devs? I suspect it is not predictable as yet. I do not write blank cheques.

I stopped using SIX for quite a while after an upgrade when I caught it downloading big patches for several mods and an entire mod I didn't want, without prior knowledge or consent (my preferences seeming to have been lost during the program update). If I had not caught it, I would have incurred over GBP 50 in over-contract b/w use. I have SIX set up now; it's a great program, though I haven't updated the program for many months. I do not play MP so that isn't really an issue for me.

Would you use an Internet cafe let you do all of the above steps? That is, log into your Steam account through the Steam client, install the game through the Steam client, create an Arma 3 Steam backup and then copy that to your physical media?

Unless I knew the owner/manager very well and was confident either in their technical ability or, preferably, that they never or very rarely allowed customers to install anything at all, then absolutely not. I wouldn't use a cafe that did allow it for any purpose that might require entering a password, etc., probably not for anything else either.

WiFi with a laptop might be a possibility; maybe even a netbook if the game doesn't actually have to be running. However, while I have several desktops, a laptop, and my faithful NC10 when travelling light or on holiday, I'm a relatively affluent European. A very different situation pertains for most people in developing markets, and also for many people in developed markets.

The emphasis on the "one version only" rationale seems to explicitly preclude any post-release non-Steam versions.

Which is precisely the strategy that will deter many millions of potential customers from considering A3 or any other Steam-only game. (Of course, no-one cannot predict even approximately how many. However, a consumer survey in a few selected markets would not be particularly expensive, although some care would be necessary in selecting the company to undertake it).

As for global market size & growth, there aren't that many good stats. The best data is for the US; for one set of estimates from a reputable source have a look at the Wall Street Journal's "T

". Note that consoles are predominantly concentrated in the more developed markets; to quote from a 2012 report from DFC, "...in many global markets PC and mobile devices are the only platform.†In the majority of those markets, only a small proportion of the population has fixed broadband connectivity. One can glean a lot from the existing data; for example there are about 6.5 miilion Internet users in Kenya. Of these 6.4 million use mobile. There are almost 110 times more mobile than fixed Internet connections, and that ratio holds for PC users as well as for users of smartphones and other mobile devices.

In a way it is a form of tunnel vision. Steam is, as various devs & users have pointed out, an excellent platform for new/small developers & publishers to bring their content to market. However, Steam customers are a relatively small segment of the current games market and a very small fraction of the total potential market.

---------- Post added at 21:33 ---------- Previous post was at 21:29 ----------

Hi Dwarden

Thanks for the reply. Well, global average bandwidth charges for MBB in say 2008 were about USD 0.5 per MB; by 2011 this had dropped to around USD 0.06. That is still expensive, especially for people in low-income countries. Current charges per GB in Malaysia for contract MBB customers of, say, Maxis, are not much different from the UK (PAYG is more costly). Exceeding one's purchased quotas is horrendously expensive.

As for unlimited bandwidth for mobile, that is very unlikely to happen in our lifetimes, if ever. Indeed with the advent of LTE in the US, "all-you-can-eat" plans are being rapidly replaced. The bandwidth use would otherwise cripple the networks.

With 3G the speed limited what size of files the user would attempt to download. Video quality is so poor over 3G that watching a movie is not an attractive proposition, especially as it would cost more than a trip to a cinema or renting/buying a DVD (whatever the vendors of traffic-shaping software might claim). LTE bandwidth does permit such activity, as AT&T learnt painfully the day a new iPad was launched...

Nor will prices drop very rapidly or to a great extent; maybe to USD 0.01 - 0.02 per MB by 2015. The reason is that although LTE is much more cost-effective (especially because it makes much better use of limited and expensive spectrum. and also the kit itself has a significantly lower cost per GB of capacity then that for 3G) it is still expensive. Note that even in many highly developed countries, a lot of fixed BB access providers impose caps on useage (usually buried in the T&C as "fair use" clauses which are frequently ill-defined). Triple-play providers may exempt bandwidth use for watching their own IPTV - but not video from other sources. Also in developed markets where MNOs have invested heavily in HSDPA and the like, they want to sweat those assets for as long as possible; expect that there will be no reduced price for LTE. If anything LTE will be priced at at a premium - as is the case already in a number of EU states.

The future is mobile. The growth of mobile telephony is a phenomenom without parallel in the whole of human history. Any content producer that does not plan to accomodate this will lose out big time.

So.. I hope that for myself and for other users who are in the same or similar situations, the delta patching will involve relatively small files - personally 100-200 MB per month would be manageable most months, any large mods or islands could be downloaded elsewere (my GF pulled UNSUNG for me via her work, with special permission).

In any event, I wish A3 to be a huge success even if I can't play it :D

[Dwarden 1124]

you can't predict size of delta ... if you change 1 byte there , the patch is gunna be small, if you change 1000MB then minus compression it's gunna be big ... it's like asking how much lines of code changes will next engine need ... :)

[orcinus 121]

@Dwarden: I was afraid you would say that!

Hmm. Do you know if the game actually has to be running for Steam to install delta patches? I would guess that it ought not to be running. If I somehow cloned the install to a netbook after activation, would Steam download to it? (my laptop is absolutely for work only, I would never do anything that might hazard client confidentiality - anyway I doubt it would run A2 properly let alone A3).

Cheers

Orc

[Dwarden 1124]

i'm pretty sure you would be able download it that way (e.g. elsewhere than on you connection) ... it's just quite complicated for non techy people

[orcinus 121]

Whee!

Actually that could help quite a few people if it worked, including some major contributors to A2 user content at least a couple of whom are really disappointed not to be able to get A3.

I'm guessing that I would need to copy all the game-related directories to an identical tree or trees on the netbook, and also clone the registry keys and add them to the netbook registry.

The last part is potentially tricky though first backing up the registries (I use ERUNT for XP, haven't decided about Win 8) is the requisite safeguard against a screw-up.

Ah - would an install on Win 8 have the same registry keys as XP Home? (NC10 dual-boots Linux, not Win 8).

I really hope this will work, I'm aching to get my teeth into A3. Already have an i7 system almost finished, HD7950 arrives on Wednesday :)

Thanks

Orc

[tonygrunt 10]

You just have to install the steam client on another pc/laptop, login with your steam account and download/update Arma 3.

When it's ready you just copy the files in the appropriate folder in your game pc and verify the files(will use some internet bandwidth).

You can leave the game files on your work pc and copy them to a removable drive every update or directly install them in the removable drive for easier transfer.

There is no need to do any registry editing.

[orcinus 121]

You just have to install the steam client on another pc/laptop, login with your steam account and download/update Arma 3.

When it's ready you just copy the files in the appropriate folder in your game pc and verify the files(will use some internet bandwidth).

You can leave the game files on your work pc and copy them to a removable drive every update or directly install them in the removable drive for easier transfer.

There is no need to do any registry editing.

That sounds great, thank you. So I'm clear:

Would I need the game installed on the portable? If so, would it need to be running?

Apologies if the above seem really dumb, but I have never used Steam and have no idea how it handles patching. The other point is that I would

not be using my work laptop; for security reasons I won't do anything with it that isn't work-related. Current alternative is a netbook.

If there's no need to install the game it would make life so much easier for those with b/w issues - just use a friend's PC or even an Internet cafe,

download the update -> transfer to USB stick-> go home -> transfer file(s) -> update

Thanks again!

Orc

[chortles 263]

You have to download/install/update Arma 3 on one of the computers.

[tonygrunt 10]

That sounds great, thank you. So I'm clear:

Would I need the game installed on the portable? If so, would it need to be running?

Apologies if the above seem really dumb, but I have never used Steam and have no idea how it handles patching. The other point is that I would

not be using my work laptop; for security reasons I won't do anything with it that isn't work-related. Current alternative is a netbook.

If there's no need to install the game it would make life so much easier for those with b/w issues - just use a friend's PC or even an Internet cafe,

download the update -> transfer to USB stick-> go home -> transfer file(s) -> update

Thanks again!

Orc

You don't have to run Arma 3 on the portable.

The only requirements are the requirements for the steam client that you will essentially use like a download client with the portable.

Windows XP, Vista, or 7

512 MB RAM

1 Ghz or faster processor

1GB HD space (recommended)

Internet connection (broadband recommended)

And of course having enough hard disk space for the game itself.

To clarify a bit how steam manages games, you always download the game in its installed state form, there are no installation files.

When you first run a steam game it will run installations for any required and included redistributables (be it directx or MS VC+ or uplay or MC games for windows live etc.).

It will then do a game initialization in the pc (registry entries, game folders in your documents, ...) and be ready to run.

If you don't run the game on the portable, no redistributable or game initialization will happen keeping it clean with the exception of any steam client related entries.

[orcinus 121]

You don't have to run Arma 3 on the portable.

The only requirements are the requirements for the steam client that you will essentially use like a download client with the portable.

And of course having enough hard disk space for the game itself.

To clarify a bit how steam manages games, you always download the game in its installed state form, there are no installation files.

When you first run a steam game it will run installations for any required and included redistributables (be it directx or MS VC+ or uplay or MC games for windows live etc.).

It will then do a game initialization in the pc (registry entries, game folders in your documents, ...) and be ready to run.

If you don't run the game on the portable, no redistributable or game initialization will happen keeping it clean with the exception of any steam client related entries.

That's really helpful, thanks Tony.

Guess I'll still have to wait for the DVD release though, since a direct install of the game would be prohibitively expensive & I really do not fancy lugging my new i7 system around the bumpy local roads to somewhere I could plug it into an xDSL or cable router.

Cheers

Orc

PS my NC10 has a 160 GB HDD so space not an issue.

[dmarkwick 261]

That's really helpful, thanks Tony.

Guess I'll still have to wait for the DVD release though, since a direct install of the game would be prohibitively expensive & I really do not fancy lugging my new i7 system around the bumpy local roads to somewhere I could plug it into an xDSL or cable router.

Cheers

Orc

PS my NC10 has a 160 GB HDD so space not an issue.

You could invest in a 16 or 32 gb memory stick, they should have enough space for install/updates...?

[orcinus 121]

You could invest in a 16 or 32 gb memory stick, they should have enough space for install/updates...?

How would you get the Steam client to install on a USB stick, unless there's some way to install Windoze on it (hmm, wonder of you could use BartPE or similar)?

Probably not - I suspect that the host PC would be be the assumed target anyway.

If I understood Tony correctly, then Steam wants to download not an installer but the installed game directories and, presumably, make entries into the registry.

I doubt that would work or even be permitted on, say, a PC in an Internet cafe.

[tonygrunt 10]

How would you get the Steam client to install on a USB stick, unless there's some way to install Windoze on it (hmm, wonder of you could use BartPE or similar)?

Probably not - I suspect that the host PC would be be the assumed target anyway.

If I understood Tony correctly, then Steam wants to download not an installer but the installed game directories and, presumably, make entries into the registry.

I doubt that would work or even be permitted on, say, a PC in an Internet cafe.

Security wise you shouldn't try to run steam from an internet cafe pc, too big of risk of getting your account hijacked, find a secure pc or bring a laptop.

I haven't tried it but you could possibly install the steam client in a usb stick and run it from there.

The steam client is self repairing when it starts, so any missing steam dependencies/registry keys would be recreated (you should disable steam auto starting with windows).

[orcinus 121]

Hi Tony

Agreed, I'm extremely fussy about Internet cafes. I never log onto anything but throwaway webmails if I'm on holiday, for example.

Laptop has a Verisign keyfob for an account I use for clients - pricey (ouch) but very secure. However, that machine is never used for anything else, and by dongle/MBB.

OK let's say I go somewhere that I trust; I plug in the USB stick (bootable? non-bootable?) & download the client to it (or download to my PC first then clone it to the USB stick)

then if it will run, get steam to download the installation files.

Still have real trouble understanding why Steam would not identify the host PC as the target & install it there rather than to the USB stick.

If it installed to the PC I would presumably need to hack the host registry to get the keys. Not sure anyone I know would appreciate that (I wouldn't let my own GF hack my registry, & am not

wildly enthusiastic about hacking any registry unless its backed up locally & remotely first :) )

[tonygrunt 10]

You are over thinking it. :)

There are no registry cd keys for Arma 3 as authentication is done by your steam account. Your Arma 3 player id is your steam id, same number.

You will never have to touch the registry.

By default steam installs all games inside its own folder, so if you install the steam client in a usb storage by default it will download the game there. If you choose you can install it somewhere else.

You could then take it home and plug it in your pc, start the same client from usb, do a "Verify Integrity Of Game Cache"

and play the game (internet authentication required).

Not recommended because the Arma series needs fast storage which usb isn't but you see how simple it can be.

*"Verify Integrity Of Game Cache"= a steam function that checks and repairs all game files and registry entries. You need to do it when moving files between PCs to identify the new files.

Edited July 16, 2013 by TonyGrunt

[doveman 7]

Yeah, if Steam is on the USB it should download the Arma3 files to Steam\steamapps\common\Arma 3 on there.

Then when you get home you can just copy that Arma 3 folder to the matching location where you have Steam installed on your PC's HDD.

Assuming Steam sends your login details over a SSL-encrypted connection (which I'd hope it does but I don't know) then it should be safe enough to set it to "Remember username" and "Remember password" at home and then just run it in the cafe or whatever, as you won't need to type in your credentials, so a keylogger won't be able to capture them. Then again, maybe there's malware that can extract the credentials from the Steam client even before they're sent, so probably best not to try it ;)

[orcinus 121]

You are over thinking it. :)

Nah, I'm just thinking in a knowledge vacuum :P

*"Verify Integrity Of Game Cache"= a steam function that checks and repairs all game files and registry entries. You need to do it when moving files between PCs to identify the new files.

Ah- so if I download to a USB stick somewhere, I can just move the files onto a chosen directory (which would be the logical partition on my SSD) and run the client from the SSD Win 8 to verify it?

That sounds great :D

[doveman 7]

Ah- so if I download to a USB stick somewhere, I can just move the files onto a chosen directory (which would be the logical partition on my SSD) and run the client from the SSD Win 8 to verify it?

That sounds great :D

Yeah, that should work fine. It always seems to take a while to verify the files but it shouldn't need to download much, if anything, unless of course you've got it set to download the latest DEV and it's been updated since you downloaded the files to the USB stick.

[tonygrunt 10]

You just have to copy the files in the right folder.

For the default installation it will be under ''..\steam\steamapps\common\Arma 3". You copy the "Arma 3" folder from your mobile storage to ''..\steam\steamapps\common\" in your pc.

If it is the first time you start the game under your pc, it will discover the copied files during 1st time installation and won't download anything.

When you want to update you will overwrite your pc files with the updated ones from your mobile storage and do a "Verify Integrity Of Game Cache" to register the changes.

The whole procedure isn't very friendly and sometimes the steam client might get stuck wanting to update even if you copy the updated files.

Simple solution, uninstall game from within steam, copy files again and reinstall. It should then discover them with no updates required.

You might also want to disable automatic updates in your pc for Arma 3 to avoid unintentionally downloading updates.

[orcinus 121]

Hi

Many thanks to all who posted answers. Very helpful :D

I'll be finishing my i7 build at the weekend (graphics card due to arrive today) so sometime next week I hope to get A3 installed

Warm regards

Orc

Edited July 17, 2013 by Orcinus
inadequate coffee intake leading to typos

[dmarkwick 261]

How would you get the Steam client to install on a USB stick, unless there's some way to install Windoze on it (hmm, wonder of you could use BartPE or similar)?

Probably not - I suspect that the host PC would be be the assumed target anyway.

If I understood Tony correctly, then Steam wants to download not an installer but the installed game directories and, presumably, make entries into the registry.

I doubt that would work or even be permitted on, say, a PC in an Internet cafe.

I just meant use the USB stick as a conduit :) so you copy to it from your work PC and copy from it to your own PC. I have a 32 gb stick and it always comes in useful for low-bandwidth situations like mine (and yours :))