Steam discussion

[gammadust 12]

Code speak indeed!

[EU] Directive on Unfair Contract Terms

The Directive on unfair terms in consumer contracts introduces a notion of "good faith" in order to prevent significant imbalances in the rights and obligations of consumers on the one hand and sellers and suppliers on the other hand.

This general requirement is supplemented by a list of examples of terms that may be regarded as unfair [check below].

Terms that are found unfair under the Directive are not binding for consumers.

The Directive also requires contract terms to be drafted in plain and intelligible language and states that ambiguities will be interpreted in favour of consumers.

EU countries must make sure that effective means exist under national law to enforce these rights and that such terms are no longer used by businesses.

Council Directive 93/13/EEC of 5 April 1993 on unfair terms in consumer contracts

(...)

Article 3

1. A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer.

(...)

ANNEX

TERMS REFERRED TO IN ARTICLE 3 (3) 1. Terms which have the object or effect of:

(a) excluding or limiting the legal liability of a seller or supplier in the event of the death of a consumer or personal injury to the latter resulting from an act or omission of that seller or supplier;

(b) inappropriately excluding or limiting the legal rights of the consumer vis-à-vis the seller or supplier or another party in the event of total or partial non-performance or inadequate performance by the seller or supplier of any of the contractual obligations, including the option of offsetting a debt owed to the seller or supplier against any claim which the consumer may have against him;

© making an agreement binding on the consumer whereas provision of services by the seller or supplier is subject to a condition whose realization depends on his own will alone;

(d) permitting the seller or supplier to retain sums paid by the consumer where the latter decides not to conclude or perform the contract, without providing for the consumer to receive compensation of an equivalent amount from the seller or supplier where the latter is the party cancelling the contract;

(e) requiring any consumer who fails to fulfil his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation;

(f) authorizing the seller or supplier to dissolve the contract on a discretionary basis where the same facility is not granted to the consumer, or permitting the seller or supplier to retain the sums paid for services not yet supplied by him where it is the seller or supplier himself who dissolves the contract;

(g) enabling the seller or supplier to terminate a contract of indeterminate duration without reasonable notice except where there are serious grounds for doing so;

(h) automatically extending a contract of fixed duration where the consumer does not indicate otherwise, when the deadline fixed for the consumer to express this desire not to extend the contract is unreasonably early;

(i) irrevocably binding the consumer to terms with which he had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted before the conclusion of the contract;

(j) enabling the seller or supplier to alter the terms of the contract unilaterally without a valid reason which is specified in the contract;

(k) enabling the seller or supplier to alter unilaterally without a valid reason any characteristics of the product or service to be provided;

(l) providing for the price of goods to be determined at the time of delivery or allowing a seller of goods or supplier of services to increase their price without in both cases giving the consumer the corresponding right to cancel the contract if the final price is too high in relation to the price agreed when the contract was concluded;

(m) giving the seller or supplier the right to determine whether the goods or services supplied are in conformity with the contract, or giving him the exclusive right to interpret any term of the contract;

(n) limiting the seller's or supplier's obligation to respect commitments undertaken by his agents or making his commitments subject to compliance with a particular formality;

(o) obliging the consumer to fulfil all his obligations where the seller or supplier does not perform his;

(p) giving the seller or supplier the possibility of transferring his rights and obligations under the contract, where this may serve to reduce the guarantees for the consumer, without the latter's agreement;

(q) excluding or hindering the consumer's right to take legal action or exercise any other legal remedy, particularly by requiring the consumer to take disputes exclusively to arbitration not covered by legal provisions, unduly restricting the evidence available to him or imposing on him a burden of proof which, according to the applicable law, should lie with another party to the contract.

(...)

(my emphasis)

I tought I would get bored of reading all this legalese, but it gets exciting at the rate that you check the boxes that apply to Steam's EULA.

Consumer's can't afford to simplify this matter. Steam does not allows us to, by including in their EULA what they do. If they had kept it simple, as in: Take this premium ammount - Provide download...

The truth is they didn't, one should not either.

A link of interest: BEUC (specially "Consumer Contracts" and "Digital Rights")

Edited February 28, 2013 by gammadust

[metalcraze 290]

I always find it funny how steamkids go "I have zero problems! Why u complain"

Hey hurricanes that destroy people's houses and wars in middle-east also don't affect me either, why people living there complain?

[Hans Ludwig 0]

Hey hurricanes that destroy people's houses and wars in middle-east also don't affect me either, why people living there complain?

This thread was going so well until you threw a monkey wrench into the gears.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Hans Ludwig

[W0lle 1046]

I'm afraid the Steam fans just shot themselves in the leg. :)

EU laws mean nothing to a company headquartered in Seattle, Washington.

One more reason, not to use Steam. Or you think that is an argument which convince me to use their service when they clearly don't care about my rights as an EU consumer?

[dm 9]

So, if I move 600 kilometers north and login with a complete different IP they may think already I shared the account with someone - BANG! No more Steam for you for days or even weeks until you convinced them that it's really you.

Actually, I moved from the UK to Australia, then back to Europe.

I have also logged into my steam account from the US.

My steam account was not suspended during any of these moves.

But wait, soon a Steam fanboy comes and tells us that this is never going to happen. Never! Because Steam isn't that bad, right?

Not a fanboy, just a user. Just documenting an experience where moving 17000 km did not result in my account being suspended. Just documenting an experience where logging in 9000 km away from my normal login location did not result in my account being suspended.

I always find it funny how steamkids

I find it funny how this supposedly "mature" community instantly degrades to name-calling when someone likes/does not like something they do not like/do like...

I can only assume from your attitude that you dont like steam and will not be getting Arma 3 metalcraze?

Edited March 1, 2013 by DM

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

The ONLY negative all this irrational hate of Steam could be focused on is the fact that yes, you don't own a physical copy of the software, instead you're buying an indefinite subscription.

That's why I don't have any games on Steam, except for Valve titles and soon - ArmA III//Alpha. Having 1,000 titles on a single account may be insanity, but one unique game on a very efficient platform, that BIS need a lot, is not a sacrifice, it's not even a compromise, it's actually an upgrade with all the services that Steamworks adds.

[Nicholas 5]

The ONLY negative all this irrational hate of Steam could be focused on is the fact that yes, you don't own a physical copy of the software, instead you're buying an indefinite subscription.

That's why I don't have any games on Steam, except for Valve titles and soon - ArmA III//Alpha.

You do realize that all other software is the same exact way? Even if you have a physical disc of OFP from back in the day, it is only a license to use the game.

[NoRailgunner 0]

It's good that not everyone is forced to turn a blind eye on everything. For Steam, BIS and other companies money/profit matters more than making all people happy. So called "white knights" belong to wishful thinking and/or fairytales. Of course the convenience/laziness of people does also play a role in development of games and for the game delivering carrier.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

You do realize that all other software is the same exact way? Even if you have a physical disc of OFP from back in the day, it is only a license to use the game.

Yes, of course, but nothing stops me from utilising that 10-year old game on a CD and play it the way it's meant to be played, or as advertised during the point of sale. Steam is great, Steam serves a good purpose, but I'm not yet willing to purchase every single title there. ArmA III being one of the exceptions - that says a lot.

Caveat emptor.

[Nicholas 5]

All I can say is that times are changing. People don't like change. But it's something that we must adapt to.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

It's good that not everyone is forced to turn a blind eye on everything. For Steam, BIS and other companies money/profit matters more than making all people happy.

The few that voice their anti-Steam opinions so loudly are being irrational for the most part. More profits for BIS, means smoother gameplay for us, means every single feature request thread not getting get locked in General, since they probably are going to have the spare time & resources to look into it, instead of maintaining 7 different localisations and ArmA versions with 15 various patches.

Steam serves a good purpose in ArmA III case - both for patching, Alpha, beta & vibrant Multiplayer on release, and Workshop mod installation if it comes to that.

[celery 8]

all this irrational hate of Steam

It's like you've skimmed hundreds of pages in the last few days without ever bothering to read why people don't actually want Steam and still bothered to take part in the discussion.

To recap it for you, people don't hate Steam. They hate the fact that the game is going Steam-exclusive because it forces every downside that Steam has compared to anything else upon them.

You do realize that all other software is the same exact way? Even if you have a physical disc of OFP from back in the day, it is only a license to use the game.

Do I really have to again? It was only in my previous post that contained a reply to you:

Here is a 101 on the practical differences of ownership as it's sometimes understood in the digital vs. physical context, in case you might have missed them:

Digital distribution

• Binds itself into a corporate account that wants you to be online
  
• You can't resell or give away anything you "buy"
  
• You can use "your" game only because the distributor hasn't yet decided otherwise
  
• The distributor is fully within its rights to disable your account or "your" games at its discretion
  
• The consumer rights (or rather the waiving thereof) are written solely by and for the benefit of the digital distributor
  
• All of the above is true simply because the distributor has the means to enforce it
  

Physical non-bound copy

• You can install the game onto any compatible system as long as the media (or its backups) doesn't get damaged
  
• It normally doesn't matter whether you're online or offline when you install and/or start the game
  
• You can resell or give away your copy to anyone you please
  
• The normal laws of your country apply to your game
  
• All of the above is true simply because extrajudicial corporate enforcement of rules better suited for their profit is impossible on this medium
  

From these differences we can deduce that yes, you own the physical media and the license within which is transferable whereas the digital download's license is not really yours and is nontransferable because the distributor likes it better that way instead of respecting your consumer rights. And let's not forget that according to European laws, the former case should be true for all copies, not just physical, so Steam's policy is illegal.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

To recap it for you, people don't hate Steam. They hate the fact that the game is going Steam-exclusive because it forces every downside that Steam has compared to anything else upon them.

I'm not getting myself into the demagogy of urban Steam legends. Instead,

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?119471-ArmA-3-on-Steamworks&p=2307567&viewfull=1#post2307567

I believe that Valve only gets a cut when you buy the game from the Steam store.

Steamworks has a host of features and services that support your retail product and any digital copies, wherever they are sold. It’s free. There is no per-copy activation charge or bandwidth fee.

Just some more interesting stuff -

Custom Executable Generation

Custom Executable Generation creates a unique build of your game for each user, making it difficult for any one user to share the game with any other user. Each individual copy of a CEG-protected game is only playable by the Steam account authorized to access it. CEG is transparent, and does not impose limits on users. It lets users access their content from any hardware, and allows unlimited hardware configuration changes without the content becoming unplayable. In fact, no changes are made to a user's computer for CEG to work. Instead, CEG works in tandem with Steam authentication, enabling content access based on user accounts, not arbitrary hardware-based "rights-management" restrictions.

Auto-updating

Be confident that all of your customers are running the most current version of your game. Update and expand your game as you see fit. Your community stays current, and your support burden will be significantly reduced. With no certification process, you're in control. Update as much as you want, with as much as you want—there is no charge for bandwidth.

Real-time sales data

Log on to your personal sales and data tracking site and see your product’s statistics up-to-the-minute. Don’t wait for weeks to find out where and how your game is selling. Real-time, worldwide activation and use reports give you the detail you need to make informed decisions about marketing and retail conditions when they need to be made.

Steamworks supports many of the top indie titles out there…and just a few of them are shown above. As your game grows you can change and add the Steamworks features you need and your customers want. Like some of the best games, Steamworks can start small to fit the needs of your game. Start with something easy like Steam Cloud–saved games or achievements, then see where your game takes you.

Beta-testing

Run secure public betas of your game. Hold public betas and choose from one participant to thousands, if you like. The timing and scope of the beta is up to you.

Rapid and secure build distribution

The same tool that allows us to securely build and share Left 4 Dead between our offices in Seattle and Orange County can be used for your product as well. No more syncing to build trees to playtest. Let your own internal version of Steam help you run more frequent playtests at the click of a button.

Bug reporting

Track most frequent crashes in real time and then triage based on number of unique users. Auto–collection of minidumps and minidump parsing tools to make your job easier. Find and address bugs even before customers contact support.

Installer

Reduce your support costs with Steamworks updatable, proven, and intelligent installer. Your installer can be auto–updated even after delivering a gold master, ensuring that your customers have the best experience from the first time they play your game.

I can see why they chose this, every sane small-to-medium Indie studio without a publisher would've gone with the same decision.

[celery 8]

Yes, do distract Celery by changing the subject and quoting a feature brochure meant to sell Steamworks to game developers! He'll never notice!

[Nicholas 5]

Physical non-bound copy

• You can install the game onto any compatible system as long as the media (or its backups) doesn't get damaged
  

You can install any game from Steam onto any PC you wish. Hell, most of the time Steam will throw in copies for all platforms if available. (I have GTA on Mac as well as PC thanks to Steam)

Physical non-bound copy

• The normal laws of your country apply to your game
  

Oh really? This is in my ArmA II manual:

8. Miscellaneous: The License shall be deemed to have been made and executed in

the Czech Republic, and any dispute arising hereunder shall be resolved in accordance

with the Czech law.You hereby acknowledge that you have read and understand the

foregoing License and agree that the action of installing the Program is an acknowledgment

of your agreement to be bound by the terms and conditions of the License

contained herein.You also acknowledge and agree that this License is the complete

and exclusive statement of the agreement between the Licensor and you.

[Dwarden 1124]

many people use multiple steam accounts and operate multiple steam accounts from same IP (household family, brothers, parents & kids w/e) ... never heard of single case of banned STEAM account because family had more than one ... and I would know it as I fall into this category too ...

[celery 8]

You can install any game from Steam onto any PC you wish. Hell, most of the time Steam will throw in copies for all platforms if available. (I have GTA on Mac as well as PC thanks to Steam)

Sorry, I should have elaborated on the point that you can install the game onto any compatible system without it being forcibly bound to the same Steam account.

Oh really? This is in my ArmA II manual:

When you buy a physical non-bound copy from a store and wish to return it for whatever reason your country's laws deem valid for a refund, do you honestly think the store's customer service will give a shit about legalese text in a game manual and start applying Czech law into the supposedly straightforward dispute? That bit of text in the EULA is reserved for international lawsuits which don't have anything to do with normal consumer activities.

That point is in contrast with the all-encompassing Steam rules that Steam enforces through its rigid system that generally prevents you from doing anything that Steam doesn't like, for example returning your purchase to a game store for an otherwise legit refund even though you bought it there.

[dm 9]

wish to return it for whatever reason

I find it amusing that one of the main arguments that the anti-steam crowd (which seems to be formed of some very hard-core BI/ArmA/OFP fans) is the fact you can not sell your copy onwards.

I still have ALL my original OFP, ArmA and CC versions, and would never dream of selling them. So why is the fact that you can not on-sell your number one all time favourite franchise such a big issue?

[NoRailgunner 0]

BIS didn't found a publisher which means: A) they don't have a current project that looks good enough to be financially supported by a publisher or/and B) the market place for such an project isn't profitable enough. Should BIS be blindly "saved" just because they have released buggy games/betas and that their games need lots of time to get fixed + improved? I'm sure if it wasn't for the game itself and BIS staying independent - most people would have sold BIS games or put it on the shelf long ago. Guess BIS run out of ideas how to go on and desperately needed someone to deliver their overambitious projects as fast and as much as possible. Steam is just the comfy middle-man because BIS can't cope with needed or required online services/support of their new projects.

[dm 9]

BIS didn't found a publisher which means:...

Thats a pretty huge assumption there...

Ever think that they actually decided, after the debacle that was each of the last few releases, maybe just one publisher was a really good idea?

Like they explain, this way they dont have to make and test and ensure cross-compatibility with something like 10 different versions. (Remember that the version number you see ingame has very little to do with the overall distribution of data). Now they only have to make one master, they only have to maintain one set of patches, they only have to test in one possible environment of game combinations.

[celery 8]

I find it amusing that one of the main arguments that the anti-steam crowd (which seems to be formed of some very hard-core BI/ArmA/OFP fans) is the fact you can not sell your copy onwards.

I still have ALL my original OFP, ArmA and CC versions, and would never dream of selling them. So why is the fact that you can not on-sell your number one all time favourite franchise such a big issue?

For many others, Arma is not their favorite series of all time and they might wish to get rid of their copies once they're done. Where exactly did you learn that if you don't personally have a problem with something, you can't empathize with someone who does and argue for their position?

Edited March 1, 2013 by Celery

[maddogx 13]

Actually BIS has found at least one publisher: Morphicon. They will be covering southern/central/western Europe and Scandinavia.

[mrcash2009 0]

Where exactly did you learn that if you don't personally have a problem with something, you can't empathize with someone who does and argue for their position?

From my experience there is a perfect term in the UK to sum this up, its this phrase:

Im alright jack.

Which stems from:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=I%27m%20all%20right%20Jack!

Now its used more as Im ok, so stuff your issue.

All I can say is that times are changing. People don't like change. But it's something that we must adapt to.

Is it as simple as people dont like change? I dont think it is, its about the red tape within a process that starts to monopolise. How can you adapt to a forced rule of thumb? The only way to adapt is to have choices in order to work out a middle ground. If I want to adapt to this change I want to find a way of purchasing without narrowing it down to what I dont like and adapt that way.

What your actually saying is: this is it, accept it no matter what. there wont be much to adapt to if things carry on getting centralised like this.

I posted the other A3 thread that I used steam for skyrim (didn't realise at purchase I needed it as I miss read) ... so I installed it, its nice, I see the benefits, Ive since uninstalled and dont use it now, wouldn't ever buy a game through it either (IE: purchase data via valve) .. I see Bi's business reasons to move to it.

But when all that said and done its still a slow moving steps into dominating and slowly "putting your eggs in one basket" so to speak, and its only some day once your all dependant on this one distribution service, they flip a script, a hack happens, they have tech issues, and anything else such as this that all the "im alight jacks" will see the blood drain from their face when they realise just the lack of control they have over their purchases.

Although while its all working ok, what's to bother yourself about? Well, over time things can change, even EULA's.

Edited March 1, 2013 by mrcash2009

[Nicholas 5]

Is it as simple as people dont like change? I dont think it is, its about the red tape within a process that starts to monopolise. How can you adapt to a forced rule of thumb? The only way to adapt is to have choices in order to work out a middle ground. If I want to adapt to this change I want to find a way of purchasing without narrowing it down to what I dont like and adapt that way.

What your actualy saying is: this is it, accept it no matter what.

Pretty much. No one is forcing anyone to use Steam. You want ArmA III but don't want Steam? Tough luck, life goes on.

[mrcash2009 0]

Pretty much. No one is forcing anyone to use Steam. You want ArmA III but don't want Steam? Tough luck, life goes on.

That entire centence is once complete contradiction of itself, you just times this by many sofware companies moving to it until "touch luck" becomes more regular.

And then more and more games go the same way, and then you use steam as more distribution goes under and you buy in shops but you have to use steam in order to run it, and then you quite like steam, and then .... *list of things that can go wrong as mentioned in previous post*.

This is about Steam, not Arma3 BTW.

Edited March 1, 2013 by mrcash2009