Steam discussion

[.kju 3239]

A context to the change: "Top EU court upholds right to resell downloaded software"

http://www.techspot.com/news/49263-eu-court-digitally-distributed-software-games-can-be-resold-as-used.html

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/07/top-eu-court-upholds-right-to-resell-downloaded-software/

[jblackrupert 14]

but but but.... Steam has great sales!!!

Games on sale for $5 trump consumer rights and common sense.

I hope the Steam fans enjoy the bed they are making, it's only going to get better...

[MrBump 10]

A context to the change: "Top EU court upholds right to resell downloaded software"

http://www.techspot.com/news/49263-eu-court-digitally-distributed-software-games-can-be-resold-as-used.html

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/07/top-eu-court-upholds-right-to-resell-downloaded-software/

They have the right to resell Steam games, but not the ability, and Steam has made it clear they're not changing anything. I can't see the US ever passing such a consumer protective law either, unfortunately.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

bloodtank, the thing is, my point of view is different from yours because I'm from a place where different rules apply. Copyright does not have much of a meaning, DRM is something that delays games on TPB and paying for any game more than 5€ is a stupid waste of money, especially when you work as a web dev making less than minimal social services handouts are in the EU, etc... But that's a whole other story.

You see, about "us not seeing the picture yet". When I made my Steam account, I didn't buy the first game out of a delusion that I'll be able to resell it later. I didn't even think about refunding games, nor did I expect to. I took Steam for what it is, same as Origin and many other services that I use daily.

To me it was a service that provided the capability to forget about discs, backups, patching, going out to buy games and not finding them in stores. My first Steam game was ArmA2 because there was no way to get it here without going two or three countries over or ordering a physical disk online and waiting for our super slow postal service. I got it, downloaded it in a few hours and enjoyed what I bought. It was even at an unexpected 20% discount at the time. I never had a single problem with it besides the fact that BI doesn't care to coordinate the patches with it. But I'm in no rush.

While what's going on in the EU is really nice and I hope one day we actually are able to sell our licenses, it does not affect me in any way, I don't live there but people still assume I do because somehow Europe started to equal EU in a lot of minds. Steam is the same thing to me now as it was back then, even with a few additions to the EULA. I'd rather we see some decent competition to Steam or punch some people who set prices on region-based digital distributions the way they do. But then again, I've no hopes placed in people who make money to suddenly want to make less money, in sane pricing or resellable licenses. It's not how the world works.

As I called you out earlier when you said that you will not abandon your Steam library, I'm also calling you out this time for not buying anymore from Steam.

If you were someone with none or very few games there, I might believe you. But the way publishers and devs are embracing Steam and the fact you've got 500 games there.

Yeah, fat chance there buddy when another great deal rolls in or a hyped up game that you really, really want comes about as Steam-only. :)

Off to work with me.

[spooky lynx 73]

The only thing that keeps Steam on my PC is Half-Life 2 and Episodes that need it to run.

[bloodtank 1]

The only reason people are whining now is because they actually read the EULA and realized that Valve is a business trying to make a profit, not God's gift to gamers.

What planet are you from?

---------- Post added at 07:49 ---------- Previous post was at 07:47 ----------

bloodtank, the thing is, my point of view is different from yours because I'm from a place where different rules apply. Copyright does not have much of a meaning, DRM is something that delays games on TPB and paying for any game more than 5€ is a stupid waste of money, especially when you work as a web dev making less than minimal social services handouts are in the EU, etc... But that's a whole other story.

You see, about "us not seeing the picture yet". When I made my Steam account, I didn't buy the first game out of a delusion that I'll be able to resell it later. I didn't even think about refunding games, nor did I expect to. I took Steam for what it is, same as Origin and many other services that I use daily.

To me it was a service that provided the capability to forget about discs, backups, patching, going out to buy games and not finding them in stores. My first Steam game was ArmA2 because there was no way to get it here without going two or three countries over or ordering a physical disk online and waiting for our super slow postal service. I got it, downloaded it in a few hours and enjoyed what I bought. It was even at an unexpected 20% discount at the time. I never had a single problem with it besides the fact that BI doesn't care to coordinate the patches with it. But I'm in no rush.

While what's going on in the EU is really nice and I hope one day we actually are able to sell our licenses, it does not affect me in any way, I don't live there but people still assume I do because somehow Europe started to equal EU in a lot of minds. Steam is the same thing to me now as it was back then, even with a few additions to the EULA. I'd rather we see some decent competition to Steam or punch some people who set prices on region-based digital distributions the way they do. But then again, I've no hopes placed in people who make money to suddenly want to make less money, in sane pricing or resellable licenses. It's not how the world works.

As I called you out earlier when you said that you will not abandon your Steam library, I'm also calling you out this time for not buying anymore from Steam.

If you were someone with none or very few games there, I might believe you. But the way publishers and devs are embracing Steam and the fact you've got 500 games there.

Yeah, fat chance there buddy when another great deal rolls in or a hyped up game that you really, really want comes about as Steam-only. :)

Off to work with me.

No the difference between me and you is principal. You are stuck on the issue of reselling games.. I can care less about reselling games, but when a company can change its EULA and wipe you off the planet of everything you own, thats the issue at hand... And this kind of control can NOT and WILL NOT be supported by me and HOPEFULLY you.

---------- Post added at 07:51 ---------- Previous post was at 07:49 ----------

You're calling me out? lol, now I just know your not even worth debating with anymore... Ignored.

[kireta21 13]

So what are your principles? Because I think I'm lost.

So companies can't change EULA?

Because they didn't want to refund a game? You do realise, from their side it screames "bul***t", when complain is "game didn't even run", while they see 9 hour in log. Actually I'm suprised they DID refund it, without threating them with lawsuits.

Or because new EULA contain part MEANLESS whatever You've singed it or not. Likely added to cut "I'll sue!" argument, as it has no real power.

Or because one can lose access to all Steam games by not loging to Steam anymore?

[Sniperwolf572 758]

...

I think I am stupid for not agreeing to the license. I think I will now log in and play game games, but I am 100% sure I am never buying another Steam game or any digital game again, that is not some sort of OPEN LICENSE system where I can use my software without the need of a 3rd party service.

... I can care less about reselling games, but when a company can change its EULA and wipe you off the planet of everything you own, thats the issue at hand... And this kind of control can NOT and WILL NOT be supported by me and HOPEFULLY you.

...

Yes, you're certainly showing that.

"I DO NOT LIKE IT AND WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS. I WILL BE DRAMATIC AND MAKE FUSS ABOUT IT, BUT I WILL STILL SUBMIT TO YOU VALVE AND ACCEPT YOUR TERMS TO WIPE ME OFF THE PLANET FOR EVERYTHING I OWN!"

[MrBump 10]

No the difference between me and you is principal. You are stuck on the issue of reselling games.. I can care less about reselling games, but when a company can change its EULA and wipe you off the planet of everything you own, thats the issue at hand... And this kind of control can NOT and WILL NOT be supported by me and HOPEFULLY you.

Principles? It's about you agreeing to a EULA conditions, then complaining about the conditions you originally agreed to. You already agreed that all this was ok when you originally signed up for Steam, the EULA says "Valve may amend this Agreement (including any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use) at any time in its sole discretion." and you knew that you could lose all your stuff because it says " If you don't agree to the amendments or to any of the terms in this Agreement, your only remedy is to cancel your Account or to cease use of the affected Subscription(s)." You're using Steam, you agreed, if you want rights then don't sign them away.

[.kju 3239]

(Parts of) EULAs are often void in the EU due to requirements not valid with the EU legal system. It doesn't matter what the EULA says.

In practice you need a lawyer/file a suite of course though..

[MrBump 10]

(Parts of) EULAs are often void in the EU due to requirements not valid with the EU legal system. It doesn't matter what the EULA says.

In practice you need a lawyer/file a suite of course though..

True, but not relevant, firstly because the OP is not in the EU, but also because complaining about how you lost all your games due to not wanting to accept a EULA, after you've already accepted a EULA that clearly states that you'll lose your games, is super lame. (Also I'm arguing more on the idea of 'principal' rather than legal.)

Edited August 8, 2012 by MrBump

[jblackrupert 14]

They have the right to resell Steam games, but not the ability, and Steam has made it clear they're not changing anything. I can't see the US ever passing such a consumer protective law either, unfortunately.

You are allowed to trade games

Payment has to be arranged through other channels though and you run the risk of a ban because steam has been banning accounts for flipping sale games for a profit.

---------- Post added at 11:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 PM ----------

From their side it screames "bul***t", when complain is "game didn't even run", while they see 9 hour in log. Actually I'm suprised they DID refund it.

Numbers on Steam are bogus a lot of the time including download size of files.

It's been that way for years with Steam. It's one of the many issues they refuse to fix.

[Baff1 0]

The only reason people are whining now is because they actually read the EULA and realized that Valve is a business trying to make a profit, not God's gift to gamers.

No one cares what's on Valves EULA.

Since it has no legal basis whatsoever, it's irrelevant.

Any lisence I have with Valve is in the minds of Valve employee's alone.

The key problem with Steam here is when it goes wrong. When you try and sell your game on/give it away, or get a refund on a dysfuctional purchase.

Not all credit card companies will deal directly with Steam. They have a very bad reputation in this department.

@Bloodtank, you have entered the realms of complete nonsense when you start crapping on about your registry entries not being removed.

Delete your Steam folder. And the games are uninstalled. No one cares about your registry entries, not even you. You are just being angry.

Better still, swallow a chill pill and continue to use Steam for the games you own.

In future, factor their behaviour into the decision to buy further games from them or the price you will be willing to pay for those games if you do.

Just because people at Steam are a bunch of selfsih dicks trying to rip everybody off, doesn't mean you have to shoot yourself in the foot to show the world how much you dislike them.

They have the right to resell Steam games, but not the ability, and Steam has made it clear they're not changing anything.

I usually give my old unwanted games away when I am done with them.

I can't access half of Steam games anyway because I have long since lost the passwords/accountnames etc.

So for Steam games I typically create a new steam account with every purchase since I can never remember the previous ones, making giving them away no problem other than the people I give them away to also lose the accountnames and passwords etc. and so never play them either.

Any purchase with Steam on the packaging was always going to be a massive waste of my money anyway. Too much anger involved.

Bargain bin material only.

So what are your principles? Because I think I'm lost.

So companies can't change EULA?

Of course they can't change the contract of sale after the point of purchase mate.

In order to be legal it has to be mutually agreed by both parties in advance of any financial transaction.

Otherwise my garage could ring me up and say they had changed their prices for the repairs they made to my car 5 years ago and that I now owe them more money for that job or that they have reduced the length of my warranty from 5 years to 3 years etc.

No contract may legally be re-written after the point of agreement. That would utterly defeat the purpose of having a contract in the first place.

That Steam uses duress to make you "sign" a new contract, ie you can't play your games unless you do, also invalidates it, and as indeed this would any contract, in law.

(Parts of) EULAs are often void in the EU due to requirements not valid with the EU legal system. It doesn't matter what the EULA says.

In practice you need a lawyer/file a suite of course though..

It's the same in the US.

The recent EU decision to formerly recognise the first sale doctrine with regards to EULA agreements is one that the US has had for many years.

Usually our digital rights laws here in the EU are word for word rewrites of US laws.

The key to this one is that we are discussing products of too low a value to be worth the price of a lawyer.

You really need to rely on other methods of consumer protection. Ombudsmen and credit card insurance etc.

Purchasing from a reputable shop is my strongest advice. Someone you already trust to refund you without fuss if necessary.

True, but not relevant, firstly because the OP is not in the EU, but also because complaining about how you lost all your games due to not wanting to accept a EULA, after you've already accepted a EULA that clearly states that you'll lose your games, is super lame. (Also I'm arguing more on the idea of 'principal' rather than legal.)

The correct principle is to ignore EULA's entirely since they are not legally binding and their core purpose for being is to scare/con little children from reasonably acting on their consumer rights in the event of any dispute.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Baff1

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Principles? It's about you agreeing to a EULA conditions, then complaining about the conditions you originally agreed to. You already agreed that all this was ok when you originally signed up for Steam, the EULA says "Valve may amend this Agreement (including any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use) at any time in its sole discretion." and you knew that you could lose all your stuff because it says " If you don't agree to the amendments or to any of the terms in this Agreement, your only remedy is to cancel your Account or to cease use of the affected Subscription(s)." You're using Steam, you agreed, if you want rights then don't sign them away.

EULA... works every time, like the first time. ;)

VALVe is kinda right: if you don't hold an item physically in your hand, it may have never existed in the first place. Nothing artificial about this concept, in fact it could be regarded as a one of the Natural laws of the Universe. The same thing as with Gold certificates - if you don't take delivery, you don't own any. Tee-hee-hee.

---------- Post added at 04:18 ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 ----------

The correct principle is to ignore EULA's entirely since they are not legally binding and their core purpose for being is to scare/con little children from reasonably acting on their consumer rights in the event of any dispute.

Look up Black's Law dictionary; consumers don't have rights, they have privileges - and these can be taken away by whomever originally granted them.

[kireta21 13]

Of course they can't change the contract of sale after the point of purchase mate.

In order to be legal it has to be mutually agreed by both parties in advance of any financial transaction.

Otherwise my garage could ring me up and say they had changed their prices for the repairs they made to my car 5 years ago and that I now owe them more money for that job or that they have reduced the length of my warranty from 5 years to 3 years etc.

No contract may legally be re-written after the point of agreement. That would utterly defeat the purpose of having a contract in the first place.

That's why new EULA comes with new version of Steam client.

"You don't like our new client with new EULA, cool, you don't have to agree and can use old client you've already signed to. Except we won't be supporting it anymore so no patches, downloading from our servers and other features you didn't pay for."

[sthalik 10]

My solution: borrow ArmA CD from a friend, install using Steam CD-key, uninstall Steam. Like it never existed in the first place.

I hope Bohemia has nothing against it. If so, please delete this post, but I won't buy ArmA a second time.

[dmarkwick 261]

So can I summarise it like this:

The games I already have, and for which I already agreed on a EULA to use, I no longer can use until I agree to a new & different EULA?

Hmm... guess I'll take the refund option...

[jblackrupert 14]

They'll have a sale and you'll stop complaining soon enough.

You won't play most of the games you buy at the sale but Steam will be happy and you will think you are happy

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

So can I summarise it like this:

The games I already have, and for which I already agreed on a EULA to use, I no longer can use until I agree to a new & different EULA?

Yes.

Issue at hand is an issue of ownership. Every practical definition of ownership I come across has two things: rights & obligations. Well, the End User does relinquish responsibilities in the maintenance of their "shared property", and VALVe have taken upon themselves to patch one's game, to upkeep the servers to deliver one's software to one's <virtual> doorstep. What complicates things even more, is that the Steam account is defined as a Subscription, which implies that one is merely renting the games as long as Steam service is in operation. :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:

http://i.imgur.com/bXcxw.jpg

[GRS 10]

I'll say it again. You do not *own* ANY games. Not even the physical copy. You own a disc and are given permission to use the software that it contains. I really don't see the big deal, especially since I only buy cheap sale games with steam. The only thing that bothers me is the subscription thing. But I vaguely recall Steam even saying they'd do something if it came to that.

[dmarkwick 261]

I'll say it again. You do not *own* ANY games. Not even the physical copy. You own a disc and are given permission to use the software that it contains. I really don't see the big deal, especially since I only buy cheap sale games with steam. The only thing that bothers me is the subscription thing. But I vaguely recall Steam even saying they'd do something if it came to that.

I don't think that's the issue here, the issue seems to be that Steam are changing rules that everyone agreed to already, and if you don't agree they simply take everything away.

[batto 17]

I don't think that's the issue here, the issue seems to be that Steam are changing rules that everyone agreed to already, and if you don't agree they simply take everything away.

Probably because the original rules said that rules can change.

[.kju 3239]

Which doesn't hold true in any court case.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I'll say it again. You do not *own* ANY games. Not even the physical copy. You own a disc and are given permission to use the software that it contains.

You don't get it: I take the physical copy* and make a thousand more copies and distribute them, now a thousand and one own a (similar) game without having to use a third party to utilise it.

I really don't see the big deal, especially since I only buy cheap sale games with steam. The only thing that bothers me is the subscription thing. But I vaguely recall Steam even saying they'd do something if it came to that.

The big deal is the cessation of service, containing "your" library of 5,000 games. Steam provides a genuine subscription with an administered account - how long do you think will it be able to operate in its current form, or operate at all? Five years? Fifteen? A physical copy will last you a lifetime, provided you back it up onto new media every ten years or so.

The issue at hand is defining the concept of ownership.

*Concerning physical copies: you make a claim that nobody owns software, not even a physical copy, I can counter-claim it by taking my CD/DVD/USB flash drive to the International Space Station along with me and utilise said software/game in the capacity that it had been advertised on the moment of sale.

Or I could just make a copy and put the original in the bin - only way to enforce a claim of licensing the software to me, would be to place DRM, which would require a 3rd party/access to the Internet to use as advertised, and there are ways of restoring justice, if that indeed turns out to be the case.

Tough luck.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[Baff1 0]

This.

My goal is not to convince other people I own my games.

The goal of the a game seller is to convince me that if I buy it I will own it and be able to use it in anyway I please.

I much prefer console gaming to the Steam service.

I just can't think of agame I'm mad enough about playing to put it with it for.