ARMA 2: OA beta build 95248 (1.62 MP build)

[JayC 0]

This winds me up a little. I run a Linux Arma server, and this has put me and my colleagues in an untenable position.

With all due respect to the developers (and I have a lot of respect for the developers of Arma), it is amateurish to release some of the elements and not others.

The suggestion that people should revert to older versions is a slap in the face to all of Arma's thousands of supporters who choose to run the Linux server.

The fact that it is STILL the case that the Linux server lags behind the Windows server only serves to indicate that BIS is not serious about rectifying the situation and treating both equally, and to suggest that because its always been that way makes it okay is very uninspiring from someone whom I really thought would be striving for improvement of the situation, not making excuses.

If BIS has decided to support the Linux server, then it needs to be treated as a first class citizen. Otherwise... drop it.

To suggest that one should run WINE, is tantamount to admitting that there is no interest in supporting the Linux server properly.

There is no need for stats... if BIS chooses to release a Linux server, then it should do so concurrently with the client and the other server versions, or face the annoyance of those who choose to use it.

The Arma community is traditionally, incredibly patient and forgiving. Whats the rush? Why release the client? Spend another week testing.. it never hurt. And release everything at the same time.

And his suggestion to revert to an older version isn't possible for steam users, once steam automatically updates your system there is no way to revert back to 1.60 or to install one of the 1.60 MP compatible beta's.

---------- Post added at 21:37 ---------- Previous post was at 21:35 ----------

There has been no performance difference reported between running the Windows server application on WINE and the Linux server application. WINE is NOT Windows, or any sort of emulator - it is a library that translates Windows API calls to their Linux equivalents.

I have info from good sources that the Linux server application is being worked on, there are simply a few bumps in updating libraries. Likely as not it'll be out soon.

I'm sorry but that just is NOT true, wine always runs slower than a native linux application... WINE is an emulator and by it's very nature is going to use more cpu cycles than the same program running without WINE.

[Lokyi 10]

Well quite frankly it's a pain in the ar$e caused by Steam auto-update, and sh!tty comms. If everyone bought everything on BIStore and manually patched it wouldn't be so much of a drama.

Some of us teams have hosted servers where we don't exactly have the luxury of deciding whether we run Windoze or Linux.

It's pretty much a cluster fsck right now, caused by p!ss-poor communication. One minute you guys release a 1.61 beta, a 1.61 RC, and then two days later an official 1.62 patch? I mean c'mon, you didn't even give us any warning!

So until you release Linux dedi files, I've got about 8 guys out of 30+ that are able to actually play on our server right now.

Don't get me wrong, we're certainly grateful for the work you guys put in, and all the other stuff that goes on behind the scenes, but seriously shoddy communication makes for an unhappy community.

Seriously, all you had to do was say that you're looking at releasing 1.62 some time in the next few days, be aware that there may be compatibility issues because you haven't got Linux supported just yet, so warn everyone to make sure auto-update etc is deselected in Steam. Difficult no?

[Kindling 1]

Mighty google finds all: http://pastebin.com/KACc1wBm

The which in that is a bit buggy, and the ln -s isn't really needed given an extra package. Up-to-date ver is here (version linked here will always be up to date :))

[domokun 515]

Seriously, all you had to do was say that you're looking at releasing 1.62 some time in the next few days, be aware that there may be compatibility issues because you haven't got Linux supported just yet, so warn everyone to make sure auto-update etc is deselected in Steam. Difficult no?

I agree that it wasn't handle perfectly but even those who disabled Steam Auto-update function got the patch.

So how about you point your bile in their direction too?

Seriously it isn't perfect but how many studios support their games 3 years after release?

[JoeDamage 10]

I agree that it wasn't handle perfectly but even those who disabled Steam Auto-update function got the patch.

So how about you point your bile in their direction too?

Seriously it isn't perfect but how many studios support their games 3 years after release?

Other games have a much shorter life-cycle, after which interest in the game disappears and there is not viable commercial value left. BIS isn't supporting the game because they're nice people.. they're doing it because this is a commercial venture, which is why I would hold them to commercial standards. This isn't a banged-together, get-it-when-you-get-it, hobby project... or at least, its not supposed to be.

[Banshee 9]

Seriously it isn't perfect but how many studios support their games 3 years after release?

Studios who want to sell their next generation game (Arma3, TOH). :)

I like how I am not the only one complaining anymore.

But I fear we have to face it. BI doesn't have an update strategy that cares about all users beeing catered. Beta versions and updates are pushed ASAP to get more feedback ASAP. That's how it is.

And BI has clearly stated that linux servers are not their priority. That's bad for us and bad for BI because some of their most widley used community hosted servers run linux.

We had BI splitting the userbase apart with 1.60 as well. Steam users couldn't play because there was no update. Instead of waiting until 1.60 is avaible on steam they pressed it to the other clients to get bugreports. Understandable or not that's how it went. Steam users waited 1-2 weeks for 1.60 afaik.

As for Windows vs. Linux servers: I have a list from 21st of june 2012 with 1787 servers in total. 195 of them are Linux DS and 984 are Windows but not DayZ and 640 are DayZ servers.

If we now only collect the data from active servers this means for a playercount above:

21.06.2012 17.00 CEST:

0 = 984 Windows and 195 Linux Servers

10 = 24 Windows and 8 Linux Servers

20 = 8 Windows and 6 Linux Servers

40 = 1 Windows and 3 Linux Servers

26.07.2012 14:00 CEST:

0 = 983 Windows and 180 Linux Servers

10 = 30 Windows and 0 Linux Servers

I will try to do another measuring around prime time tonight if GameSpy lets me.

But yeah, this maybe allready shows that 20% of the servers ran Linux and a lot of the high playercount (actual playing) servers are linux. At least pre 1.62. :P

[Dwarden 1124]

again how many times we need repeat the linux server is worked on, the windows release needed to go out

period ... now let us work and get the linux server out as fast as we can ...

[JoeDamage 10]

again how many times we need repeat the linux server is worked on, the windows release needed to go out

This is what I don't understand.. why did the windows release 'need to go out' without the linux server? You're just pissing people off... and by the sounds of it, you don't even care about that.

period ... now let us work and get the linux server out as fast as we can ...

I am pretty sure that our complaining is not stopping you from working on the linux server. At the very least, our moaning should be seen as a motivator to perhaps, in future, release it all at once, and spare yourselves the whining. I'm sure its not the developer's fault anyway, I'm pretty sure they're not making these decisions... so if one of the higher up cares to respond, that wouldn't go amiss.

[domokun 515]

This is what I don't understand.. why did the windows release 'need to go out' without the linux server? You're just pissing people off... and by the sounds of it, you don't even care about that.

I am pretty sure that our complaining is not stopping you from working on the linux server. At the very least, our moaning should be seen as a motivator to perhaps, in future, release it all at once, and spare yourselves the whining. I'm sure its not the developer's fault anyway, I'm pretty sure they're not making these decisions... so if one of the higher up cares to respond, that wouldn't go amiss.

D'you work in software development?

If you did you'd know that time spent communicating with the customer is time not spent developing.

You're pissing people off and by the sounds of it, you don't even care about that.

[JoeDamage 10]

D'you work in software development?

If you did you'd know that time spent communicating with the customer is time not spent developing.

Actually, I am a programmer, and you're right, if the developers are responding on the forums, then they're not developing... so why are the developers responding, what about someone thats making the decisions explain this debacle?

You're pissing people off and by the sounds of it, you don't even care about that.

I'm pissing people off??? I'm the customer.. I'm the loyal fan.. the guy who defends Arma when new players come to me and tell me the game is buggy and the AI can shoot through walls and see through grass. I'm the guy who tries to encourage more people to play the game. I'm the guy who bought the game and who buys every possible addon...I'm the guy who spends hours and hours in the game every week, years after most have given up...

...and I'm the guy thats pissed off! Because I can't run the newest version of the Linux server at the same time as half our community has already updated to 1.62... and when I express my annoyance, all I get are half-assed apologists telling me to revert to an older version and clearly harassed feeling developers telling me to shut up and wait. Who are you to tell me that I don't care??

Edited July 26, 2012 by JoeDamage

[imago 1]

afaik You can run windows server in headless WINE mode ... :)

Ok, so I did that.

The O/S is now tasking 7 more processes, consuming about 500MB more ram and has about ~ 2GB less disk space than before.

http://i.imgur.com/C9KQt.png

At least my server is full again.

[[frl]myke 14]

@JoeDamage

as a programmer you should know that sometimes things don't work as expected or deadlines have to be moved, resulting in a non-optimal situation. Dwarden said it is worked on and unless you have detailed insight on BI's workflow, you better just accept it. There is a solution involving WINE which should help to get it working in the meantime. Linux binaries will follow as soon they're done. Your ranting and whining wont change anything.

So, as a Moderators instruction, you've been heard, refrain from continuing this unhelpful and unproductive posting.

[ragerh 10]

Your the ones being unhelpful. The attitude you have!! A customer that loyally plays your game asks about something and this is what you guys have to say. No Wine is not a solution. Not only do we have to sit up with the 1000's of errors and bugs of Arma but when we complain we get attitude from you! don't even reply just do your job.

[JayC 0]

D'you work in software development?

If you did you'd know that time spent communicating with the customer is time not spent developing.

You're pissing people off and by the sounds of it, you don't even care about that.

Well you know, the solution to that is to have customer service reps, community reps, and non-programmers handle the forums... lock the dev's in a room and feed them Cheetos and and mountain dew ;)

Either way, somebody made the call to 'push' the windows patch for the DayZ folks, and not hold it until it was all ready to go... It's poor project management to say the least.

---------- Post added at 15:59 ---------- Previous post was at 15:47 ----------

Myke;2195348']@JoeDamage

as a programmer you should know that sometimes things don't work as expected or deadlines have to be moved' date=' resulting in a non-optimal situation. Dwarden said it is worked on and unless you have detailed insight on BI's workflow, you better just accept it. There is a solution involving WINE which should help to get it working in the meantime. Linux binaries will follow as soon they're done. Your ranting and whining wont change anything.

So, as a Moderators instruction, you've been heard, refrain from continuing this unhelpful and unproductive posting.[/quote']

WINE is not a real option... It uses a LOT more system resources, when you're running a very high end server which can barely handle the load running directly on linux, the added resources used by WINE make the server unplayable. Not to mention the SECURITY risks involved in installing WINE and getting it working.

Sure, removing your firewall and plugging your computer directly into the network will solve all those pesky port problems :) but it isn't the right way to solve the problem.

Second, you can't install WINE and get it running REMOTELY (safely), most of these large Linux servers aren't under somebodies desk, or in somebodies basement... they're in data centers hundreds or thousands of miles away, there is no safe to install wine and get it working for many of these high end servers...

Finally this suggestion to just run windows, because of Microsoft licensing fees, to get a server running Windows 2003 (because you can't rent servers in the United States with Windows XP or 7 - violates Microsoft licensing) you're looking at a yearly cost of $360... that's not for the server, that is just for the Windows 2003 license... So you see why some of us aren't all that happy with the suggestion that just switching to Windows or WINE will solve all of our problems...

So yeah some of us are complaining, I have been a customer since Operation Flashpoint, I want a release date when they're planning to release a 1.62 dedicated server for Linux (something nobody from BI has even given us an estimate on). I wouldn't ask for an estimate on a patch that hasn't been released, but 1.62 has been released, and large groups of very dedicated customers who were around well before dayz are sitting unable to play the game together because of this issue.

[Famewolf 1]

A mistake has clearly been made. And the right people should come forward to take responsibility.

Surely this is not a case of one dev team leader having a "light bulb" idea and pressing a button?

Like most companies, I assume that BIS has some sort of patch release schedule that is managed by a departmental head. So clearly we are expressing our distaste to the wrong people.

Reading through the threads, I only see developers and moderators. I don't see any response from BIS executives or managers.

If I was a developer (which I'm not), I'd hope that my manager or his executive manager would come forward to represent the company.

This is the equivalent of a mayor sending a bunch of his file clerks to defend decisions he himself made to a angry mob.

I'd be shamed if I was such a mayor.

[MavericK96 0]

Reading through the threads, I only see developers and moderators. I don't see any response from BIS executives or managers.

Maruk replied in this thread and he's the CEO.

[Dwarden 1124]

you must missed the CEO and my posts then :) ... :rolleyes:FPDR

[Banshee 9]

Guys, the tone in this thread is not how it should be. Please take a deep breath and then calm down a little. :)

Myke;2195348']@JoeDamage

as a programmer you should know that sometimes things don't work as expected or deadlines have to be moved' date=' resulting in a non-optimal situation. Dwarden said it is worked on and unless you have detailed insight on BI's workflow, you better just accept it. There is a solution involving WINE which should help to get it working in the meantime. Linux binaries will follow as soon they're done. Your ranting and whining wont change anything.

So, as a Moderators instruction, you've been heard, refrain from continuing this unhelpful and unproductive posting.[/quote']

Myke, we all value the work BIS is doing. But if we are not allowed to raise issues and give our concerns a voice that might eventually be noticed, what is this then? Is the work we do for the community and therefore for BI not valued?

We have been raising issues with the update policy ever since and not much changed. When 1.60 came out it was pushed to the clients. There was no waiting time for the patch until the steam users were able to update as well (nothing to do with Linux in this case). But instead steam users waited a long time for the patch to be on steam. Now one could say: This is not BIS fault but steams. I rather say (and said) that it indeed is BI's responsibility to take care of that.

Here we are not talking about optional beta versions anymore but about a fully blown game patch. We are talking about a lot of high value gameservers driven by donations and personal money/time going deserted because of the update policy. We know that complaining won't give us the linux dedicated faster. But hell we are not talking about that. We hope with raising our voices, that in the future such situations will be handled diffrently. That's all we ask and what we've been asking in the past. But apparently this is not a priority to BI. I wish for the future that BI rethinks it's update policy to not split the community or in this case takes down a part of the servers. But I'm repeating myself with every major patch. :)

We are also talking about groups that can't play because they can't patch their linux servers to be able to play on them. Groups that are dedicated, hold a playerbase and make Arma2 worth playing still after so long time it's been on the market.

[kklownboy 43]

...

...

... I wish for the future that BI rethinks it's update policy to not split the community or in this case takes down a part of the servers. But I'm repeating myself with every major patch. :)

We are also talking about groups that can't play because they can't patch their linux servers to be able to play on them. Groups that are dedicated, hold a playerbase and make Arma2 worth playing still after so long time it's been on the market.

Why should i have to wait ? Window Lic servers should wait for free Linux? Why should i have to wait, i have a CD install, not Steam? I have to wait for steam? Linux? Why? But it is refreshing to see all the players who want to play and are posting as such.

I think your assumption on them releasing at different times is wrong, and they do care, and they do try to have all of the diff installs at the same time but shit happens (especially if you use Steam and Linux..tuff).

SUMA;http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?137764-Petition-Release-a-1-62-compatible-linux-server-patch!&p=2195081&viewfull=1#post2195081

[IsamuMiyoji 1]

The trouble is the porting of 1.62 is more difficult then usual, therefore the version we have does not have glitches, as it is not compilable at all at the moment. The project changes were more extensive this time than before, requiring us to significantly modify the Linux makefile and to upgrade the compiler as well.

but isn't that your own fault? I mean, you stoped developing it, because you had to make beta patches the whole time, just for windows

but if you would have developed the linux server at the same time, you wouldn't have the problem now -.-

Thats just stupid time management, you have to make all the changes now, instead of when you made them...

So don't cry about it now, just should have done it a long time ago, when you started kicking out the patches every 2 days

[Banshee 9]

but isn't that your own fault? I mean, you stoped developing it, because you had to make beta patches the whole time, just for windows

but if you would have developed the linux server at the same time, you wouldn't have the problem now -.-

Thats just stupid time management, you have to make all the changes now, instead of when you made them...

So don't cry about it now, just should have done it a long time ago, when you started kicking out the patches every 2 days

Hey please tone it down. We do not know the exact insights on the process. Most likley it's possible to streamline all that a little better with the right resources. :)

[Kindling 1]

I'm sorry but that just is NOT true, wine always runs slower than a native linux application... WINE is an emulator and by it's very nature is going to use more cpu cycles than the same program running without WINE.

The clue is in the name: Wine Is Not An Emulator.

WINE simply translates Windows functions and calls to their Linux equivalents. It's like an API more than anything else.

Look, you obviously don't know how WINE works, so please stop misinforming people. You can learn how it truly works at WINEHQ.org.

Simply put, any speculation can be made as to the reason for this, but the important thing is that currently there is no native Linux server yet for this version (libraries are being updated), and currently WINE is a possible workaround. The Linux server will be released when it's ready. This has been stated by multiple devs, community representatives and the CEO :)

[gossamersolid 155]

I guess there's a simple solution BIS can look at for ArmA 3:

Don't make linux servers to begin with. Most companies seemingly have done that, would you guys prefer that happened instead of delayed releases?

No? Alright, then sit down and wait.

[Banshee 9]

I guess there's a simple solution BIS can look at for ArmA 3:

Don't make linux servers to begin with. Most companies seemingly have done that, would you guys prefer that happened instead of delayed releases?

No? Alright, then sit down and wait.

Seriously? Yes.

But much more I'd preferr a headless dedicated server install for Linux wich will be as up to date as the windows stuff.

[suma 8]

but isn't that your own fault?

Yes. It it my own fault, my responsibility. And this is what I do:

- I apologize

- I do my best to fix the situation

- I try to find a temporary workaround (which currently seems to be using the Wine - not perfect, but it seems workable)

I understand you are perhaps not interested in any of those three lines, and you want the situation fixed now and immediately. Unfortunately I am unable to provide that.

Let me repeat we are aware of the problem and we try to fix it as soon as possible, and we apologize for the inconvenience made.