TPWC AI suppression system

[metalcraze 290]

Explain to me one thing

There's a "min distance" option in userconfig below which all units are supposed to be visible no matter what.

Does it mean that with the default setting of 25m I will be spotted within that distance even through walls and bushes?

[Laki 1]

Yes, ace seems fine with it, plus the ai mix I use, slx, gl4, zeus & this, parts from, not the full mod’s.

Than it looks like some kind of "personal" problem with making ACE and TPW live happily together(

AI react just splended in your video but in my case WithAce Ai and WithoutAce Ai are to very different AIs with very-very different IQ:

In first video I use only TPW LOS and everything is just exellent:

But when I also use ACE, everything goes wrong, and AI becomes as slow as it was before TPW LOS:

And because nobody have such problem i just dont know where to look for it. Before this case all other mods went along with each other quite well.

For launching of the game im using Arma 2 launcher, not via shortcut but i dont think this is the reason of a trouble.

Now im just playing without ACE but after 2+ years with it the game seems a bit empty:(

Maybe someone have an idea what is the reason of this problem?

[chrisb 196]

Than it looks like some kind of "personal" problem with making ACE and TPW live happily together(

AI react just splended in your video but in my case WithAce Ai and WithoutAce Ai are to very different AIs with very-very different IQ:

'snip'

And because nobody have such problem i just dont know where to look for it. Before this case all other mods went along with each other quite well.

For launching of the game im using Arma 2 launcher, not via shortcut but i dont think this is the reason of a trouble.

Now im just playing without ACE but after 2+ years with it the game seems a bit empty:(

Maybe someone have an idea what is the reason of this problem?

I can see the problem your having.

So your not running anything else other than tpwc/los+ace in vid one and just tpwc in two, no other ai mods or ai pbo’s at all ?

Or mods in general ?

A few things I thought to mention, I put in the spoiler..

I can understand your disappointment after using ace for so long. What I would do is sort out the launching yourself, use something like your launcher or six updater to update mods, not launch them, however you can 'prioritise' launch sequence in SU, not sure regards other launchers. I feel its better to do that either in-game via ‘Expansions’ or type the target line. If the target line is too long, repack pbo’s from mods into catorgories i.e. ‘@ai’, ‘@game_enhancements’, ‘@islands’, ‘@weapons’, ‘@vehicles’, ‘@factions’ etc.

That said clearly ace works with tpw for others, me included, so its possible to get it working for you, just testing with other mods/pbo’s or subtracting mods/pbo’s until you find that balance.

Also don’t forget alterations to mods/pbo’s by the author can change your in-game experience via reactions, effects etc, even if they are simple small alterations, it can easily upset the balance you have. I keep most all the old versions/updates of ai mods until I am very sure that they are no longer needed, therefore if I loose the reactions/effects I want in-game, I can easily rewind. Plus further down the line I can revisit to see if older versions of one mod (i.e. pbo’s, not necessarily whole mods) work better with newer versions of others. This does mean separate hdd’s for storage, but the series is my hobby, so I spend on it.

Make sure to add new mod/addon updates separately and test before adding further updates, that way you won’t loose track of where your at, therefore where a problem might begin. Launchers simply overwrite, then you have to go searching back if your in-game experience changes. And if they have overwritten several, its then a case of which one is causing the problem concerning the change.

Everyone has a preference to certain mods, ai being at the top of my list. That does mean separating and mixing pbo’s from mods sometimes, not using whole mods. It also means matching pbo’s to cpu’s via testing, what may run for me and other members of the group I play in, may not run for everyone, so we test again and again until the balance is right for the group. On the other hand they have to cpu down to my level in some cases, I have the lowest pc for my arma 2 pc in our group, i.e view distance, separating large conflicts into smaller sections etc, although I also make a lot of the missions for the group so that’s not much of a problem to avoid, its all compromise with this series. Some lower end pc’s can run things better than higher end and obviously there’s lots of things higher end can run that lower end can’t, to the same degree.

Ai is so demanding of cpu that it can be a problem if lots of processes are running at the same time, dedicated gaming pc’s are the only choice imo, for your gaming/hobby, not a pc you use for other things, over time it just gets bogged down with everything else. Especially online play, where every other process wants to update while your playing, it happens, all in the background, unless you run down everything and turn them off.

Half of that lot written above means nothing to your problem, probably, sorry for that, but it was worth mentioning I think..

TPWC is a top end ai mod, ace is also top end, but not where ai combat skills/reactions are concerned (imo). Its effects and realism in other ways. Look to some other ai mods for better reactions/skill, or to even up reactions. You can keep ace, but for the above rather than ai skill.

The problem probably isn't a problem, just the fact they clash a little when only using the two, me and others who don't have the problem, probably also use other mods/pbo's that restore the ai reactions somehow.:).

[Laki 1]

Thanks a lot for your answer Chris:)

Yes, for testing i used only tpwlos and tpwlos+ace (+cba in both cases). Unfortunately that means that doing everything right i really get the wrong result without no hope fore better life:(

I agree with you that AI is one of the (or The One) most important things in the game so it seems like ill give ACE an indeterminately long holiday (at least to that part of it which has "ai" in its title, thx for tip abpout mixing of pbos) untill the "situation" will be smh soloved. Anyway i was going to by new hdd soon so maybe the reinstalled game will behave better.

Also thank you very much for your "magic mix" from page 91, it actually really makes ai notice and use buildings/windows/roofs quite nicely.

Summerizing, thank you very much 3 big times)))

Edited October 27, 2012 by Laki

[chrisb 196]

Thanks a lot for your answer Chris:)

"snip"

That’s o.k. hope you find the mix you want.:)

There are a few different ways you can mix the ones you've see, plus others. PM me and I will send you some links to a full list of the pbo’s we use for ai behaviour/skill. Don’t forget configs (where available) can be tweaked to whatever settings you like to further enhance ai..

[Grey-Legolas 10]

As written above, i`ve got the same problem as Laki - looks like ACE is totally blocking tpw`s code and cqb are no more fun anymore again(.

Just wanted to admit that theres more than one person having problems in commbining ace and tpw.

[domokun 515]

That’s o.k. hope you find the mix you want.:)

There are a few different ways you can mix the ones you've see, plus others. PM me and I will send you some links to a full list of the pbo’s we use for ai behaviour/skill. Don’t forget configs (where available) can be tweaked to whatever settings you like to further enhance ai..

Is the magic mix compatible with in-built campaigns? e.g. Red Harvest and/or Op Arrowhead?

What's the performance hit of GL4+Zeus+SLX+TPW compared to just TPW?

Edited October 28, 2012 by domokun

[chrisb 196]

Is the magic mix compatible with in-built campaigns? e.g. Red Harvest and/or Op Arrowhead?

What's the performance hit of GL4+Zeus+SLX+TPW compared to just TPW?

Lets get off this ‘magic mix’ analogy.:rolleyes:.

I’ve had that in a couple of pm’s, its not a magic mix, if you have been playing the series for some time, and have not experienced the ai behaviour in the vid/vids I have put up, and indeed would like that behaviour for your ai, then you have not tested with mixes of pbo’s enough, its as simple as that.

The mods/addons are out there, made by very talented people, they are the ‘magic’, if you like. Pulling the pbo’s together is where the users side comes in. I do not make mods/addons, wish I could, but I can test what’s available and observe, that’s exactly what I and a few in our group do, to every version/tweak of the ai mods/addons we use, its that important to us, where ai are concerned you need a great balance of behaviour..

The hit to cpu is there, as with most ai mods/addons. How hard it hits your cpu would only be found via testing.. For me its not an issue with the mix I use, I would put more cpu into ai than any other mod, so it may be different for others.

I would add that results you get may vary dependant on your setup and mods running, i.e. 'smk' clash with 'slx', well in my experience they do, as could others.

Testing, testing, abracadabra, is anybody there..;):rolleyes::)

Answered pm :)

[froggyluv 2136]

As written above, i`ve got the same problem as Laki - looks like ACE is totally blocking tpw`s code and cqb are no more fun anymore again(.

Just wanted to admit that theres more than one person having problems in commbining ace and tpw.

Thats strange. I thought ACE used an ASR variant and TPW's code is built to run with ASR..?

[SavageCDN 231]

Thats strange. I thought ACE used an ASR variant and TPW's code is built to run with ASR..?

Using ACE and TPWC no issues whatsoever. If you are experiencing issues (and are running it as well) I recommend disabling LOS to see if that solves it (I run ACE and ASR_AI and TPWC and suppression works).

Edited October 29, 2012 by SavageCDN

[oldy41 61]

Explain to me one thing

There's a "min distance" option in userconfig below which all units are supposed to be visible no matter what.

Does it mean that with the default setting of 25m I will be spotted within that distance even through walls and bushes?

Bump ;-)

I was wondering exactly the same for a while now...

From my testing I would say the answer to your question is 'no', but if that is correct, what the heck _is_ the effect of min distance?

[ollem 4]

Explain to me one thing

There's a "min distance" option in userconfig below which all units are supposed to be visible no matter what.

Does it mean that with the default setting of 25m I will be spotted within that distance even through walls and bushes?

Bump ;-)

I was wondering exactly the same for a while now...

From my testing I would say the answer to your question is 'no', but if that is correct, what the heck _is_ the effect of min distance?

Indeed the answer is No: AI will not be able to look through walls: the same basic Line of Sight requirements are applicable, however stance, darkness, or camouflage don't have any impact.

So AI will notice anyone who's in front of them within this 25m range.

Edit: not completely tight: please see my remark few posts ahead

Edited November 2, 2012 by Ollem

[maturin 12]

Maybe the system should just shut off at night, when target recognition is definitely a hesitant, slow process that the current AI models better.

[Tonci87 163]

Indeed the answer is No: AI will not be able to look through walls: the same basic Line of Sight requirements are applicable, however stance, darkness, or camouflage don't have any impact.

So AI will notice anyone who's in front of them within this 25m range.

It would indeed be good if you could exclude darkness from that list.

[domokun 515]

It would indeed be good if you could exclude darkness from that list.

Definitely, I think that vision is the primary sense used in detecting targets, followed by audio.

It seems realistic that visual detection be degraded by darkness.

[ollem 4]

Visual detection is degraded by darkness already.

But audio at night seems to travel quite far... it's very hard to move in darkness without being heared.

Only Unit's with good camo (e.g. sniper) are not auto detected within 25m: if they are prone and don't move they should hardly be detected.

(if you don't agree with the approach: just lower the min distance value in the config to e.g. 10m :p )

Edited November 3, 2012 by Ollem

[ollem 4]

Here a simple 1 player Arma Server "test mission" based updated TPWCAS_DSC code:

(mission has been tested with ACE and ASR_AI enabled)

PBO version: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/96469595/tpwcas_dsc/tpwcas_dsc_test_v0_9.Takistan.pbo

"My Documents" MPMissions version: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/96469595/tpwcas_dsc/tpwcas_dsc_test_v0_9.Takistan.zip

The (final) TPWCAS_DSC mod release based on this code is supposed to be used on dedicated server only, but for this mission the check for dedicated server has been disabled.

This allows to test the mission on a locally hosted server too.

Make sure no other TWPCAS/TPWLOS is active!

(NOTE: So this is NOT a new TPWCAS-DSC MOD release yet!)

what's new:

- Improved AI suppression code

- suppressed AI will look for close by cover and move to cover (note: sometimes basic AI behavior overrules the effect)

with debug enabled: - yellow smoke + flag pole: selected cover position

- blue smoke: unit reached cover

- green smoke: unit stayed a few random seconds in/close to cover position and default AI behavior will take over again

- red smoke: unit went (too far) to wrong direction or took too long to reach cover

- cyan smoke: unit is already in cover (or at least no Line of Sight to shooter)

- TPWLOS is server FPS aware: below (configurable) FPS threshold TPWLOS will skip automatically until server FPS is okay again

- Civilian suppress effect: bullets close to civilians will make them run in random direction away from the shooting

with debug enabled: - yellow smoke + flag pole: selected cover position

- blue smoke: unit reached selected destination and should go prone

- green smoke: unit stayed a few random (20 to 40 seconds) at position and default AI behavior will take over again

- red smoke: unit went (too far) to wrong direction or took too long to reach cover

- cyan smoke: unit is already in cover (or at least no Line of Sight to shooter)

Mission contains 2 player slots:

- 1 - select to test enemy AI suppression

- 2 - select to test scared civilian fleeing effect

Feedback highly appreciated!

[kremator 1065]

Ooooh this sounds good ! Will try it out now mate.

[domokun 515]

Are there any plans to update the SP version with refinements learnt these last couple of months?

[ollem 4]

Are there any plans to update the SP version with refinements learnt these last couple of months?

Yes - tpw is quite busy but we do keep in touch and updates should be expected

[chrisb 196]

That’s great to hear, well, read..:)

Edited November 3, 2012 by ChrisB

[Variable 322]

This is just getting better and better

Ollem, you rock my world.

[metalcraze 290]

That civilian fix is really welcome.

It's really awkward to see them ignore bullets passing by in vanilla.

[SavageCDN 231]

Here a simple 1 player Arma Server "test mission" based updated TPWCAS_DSC code:

(mission has been tested with ACE and ASR_AI enabled)

Feedback highly appreciated!

Roger that will give it a go this weekend and report back.

[giorgygr 61]

Hey..sorry if i haven't got it right but..

In this so called "test mission" i can assume there is a version i.e TPWCAS_DSC 0.5?

:confused: