Realistic optics

[afp 1]

I always knew that in ArmA the optics are overpowered (as I also watched a lot through real optics) but I've been always too lazy to measure and analize this. This happened up to today when I've found a picture taken through a real ACOG so I measured the distances in pixels and compare the overall view to Arma's. I can understand that everything is related to the normal ArmA zoom to compensate the field of view and bring it closer to real eye accuracy, still there is enough room to improvement to make it more realistic.

So lets see. With a real 4x magnification, the height of the object appear, as it is normal, 4 times bigger than the original. What should be noted here is how accurate the object is seen through the optics. The building is like 350-400m away, you can figure out the size of standing man and realize there can be enough troubles aquiring the target even being proned.

(click picture)

At a similar distance (maybe even longer), in ArmA, the normal zoom is added to the 4x optics so the objects appears more than 8x higher. You can see that aquiring a target the size of a man is much easier, the optics behave more like a powerfull binocular than an ACOG. The effect is even more visible with 8x optics.

(click picture)

Conclusion: in order to balance the optics and make them more realistic, the optics should be downgraded to a lower magnification. If they are higher then normal zoom (like looking through an aimpoint), they are still realistic, aquiring a target at 4-500m with an ACOG shouldn't be just a piece of cake.

Edited June 18, 2012 by afp

[max power 21]

One thing to take into account is that 1x zoom is not the default field of view in first person, but the zoomed in field of view. The default field of view is actually zoomed out a bit to get a wider view area.

[afp 1]

Yes, I could figure out this, plus everything is adjusted so its a fine balance between field of view, zoom, distances etc since a real mountain doesnt have 300m. Still, looking through an ACOG looks more like looking through a telescope...

This guy made a more realistic ACOG but the usage may not be very handy:

. Lowering current magnification could be a fast solution. Edited June 18, 2012 by afp

[MavericK96 0]

This guy made a more realistic ACOG but the usage may not be very handy:

I've used that mod (with the 3D ACOG). Those are REALLY awesome in-game. It also seems like it makes it less laggy to zoom in, since you are getting a fast, but still sequential zoom rather than just an instant cut to full zoom.

[nkenny 1057]

A rather interesting observation. I seem to recall that such suggestions have been shot down in the past, due to the vast difference in monitors and screen resolutions used by players. Without me being completely able to wrap my head around the problem that is.

From a gameplay point of view, lowering magnification will shorten effective engagement ranges, which normally leads to better gameplay. Indeed it appears to be a common tweak on all serious PvP scenarios to limit access to optics.

-k

[Beagle 684]

That's not the way the zoom optical designation works. You did fall to a common missinformation. A 4x Scope does not make the objekt 4x "bigger" but to appear 4x closer. magification factors for object magnification instead of zoom factor are used in microscopic optics only, not in Telescopic optics.

the distiction is beetween geometric magnification (microscopes)) and optical magnification (telecopes)

Edited June 18, 2012 by Beagle

[da12thMonkey 1943]

As Max said, the the default view for first person isn't meant to represent a 1x zoom, it's designed to give a more realistic FOV in terms of the angle that human eyes see (though IIRC it's still only 90° instead of the full 120° of Human FOV), but scaled to fit within the limits of a PC monitor. The 'zoomed in' first person view gives a more realistic impression of 1× zoom eyesight in terms of depth - though the monitor now limits the FOV significantly, because you can't fit a image representative of true unity vision on a monitor, with a realistic FOV. The limits imposed by your monitor are like looking through a small window in a wall out onto a distant landscape - you can only see a portion of what you'd see if there was no wall. Another limiting factor is image resolution - your monitor can't display distant objects in anywhere near as much detail as your eyes can.

So, likewise, optics are generally scaled to create realistic FOVs rather than relative zoom levels compared to other in-game views: ArmA maximises image detail though sight by making the circular sight picture extends through the full height of the monitor's image (the primary purpose of magnified optics is after all, target identification). The FOV (in terms of the angle that you can see through the optics) and relative size of distant objects compared to the reticle and aiming points, is then configured so that it is realistic for a given real-world optic.

Imagining the default ArmA view as being at 1× unity, while maintaining it's more natural 90° FOV; this is roughly comparative of how an ACOG's 7° FOV would look with 4× magnification of the background:

^click to expand^

Now it isn't too bad; but masses of space is wasted that could otherwise be used to give a much more detailed image of the sight picture that would be more representative of the clarity of the image you would get looking through a real optic and make it as easy to observe the graticule markings of the scope, as it is in real life.

Edited June 18, 2012 by da12thMonkey

[afp 1]

Monkey, I'm not talking about FOV, I agree with you at this point but about magnification. You made an ArmA "4x" magnification in your pic which looks far more realistic for an ACOG. Just what I'm trying to prove.

EDIT: Beagle, still in terms of gaming and projection of the image on the screen we could talk about the object being about 4 times "bigger".

Edited June 19, 2012 by afp

[metalcraze 290]

Hold RMB while not using optics, make a screenshot then compare. You will get your realistic 4x zoom.

Default ArmA view is zoomed out to simulate peripheral vision. Holding RMB is how you would really see the world - but alas it isn't playable that much while looking at the world through a small window that's a monitor.

[da12thMonkey 1943]

Monkey, I'm not talking about FOV, I agree with you at this point but about magnification. You made an ArmA "4x" magnification in your pic which looks far more realistic for an ACOG. Just what I'm trying to prove.

EDIT: Beagle, still in terms of gaming and projection of the image on the screen we could talk about the object being about 4 times "bigger".

Yes, but if you don't scale down the size of the sight picture overlay accordingly, to match a simple 4x magnification of the default view; the scope becomes useless in-game because the aiming marks on the various crosshairs/reticles relates to sizes that are currently supposed to be 'magnified' more than 4x compared to the default view (8.5x according to you).

For example with the mil-dot scopes you could no longer use the mil-dot formulae to estimate range to target, because the spacing of dots would no longer equal 1m @ 1000m in the sight picture, and the width of the stadia lines on the ACOG's BDC graticule would no longer relate to the shoulder-width of a man-sized target at the marked ranges on the graticule, nor would the lines properly follow ballistic drop for those ranges - unless you adjust the scale of the sight overlay as well.

As I showed, scaling the sight overlay for the ACOG correctly for a simple 4x magnification of the default view makes it really difficult to see the BDC stadia lines because of monitor resolution - the solution therefore is what BIS have done; and just increase the resolution of the overall image when in the sights view, beyond what it would be by simple magnifying the default view.

[afp 1]

I tested with a minimod (a modified config file - opticsZoomMin/Max params) and everything is just fine. Not a 3D optics but it looks more realistic. Graticles can be scaled down a bit for a perfect fit but its far better anyway.

[tremanarch 6]

whats the problem here? its quite right:

just count...

weapon used: L85A2 ACOG

regarding your first pic.. was that about 500m ??

i just made an ingame comparison with a 500m far away house

http://s7.directupload.net/images/120620/ysuhuago.jpg

maybe you think holding the right MB is zoom?! its not. its the only way to portrait a 360° world onto a 2D screen. We humans see like 160° (http://www.itbroadcastanddigitalcinema.com/img/2011-11-09_be.jpg) but we have only flat screens.. how to solve this? use FOV...

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=16201848&postcount=61

we could all play with the fisheye, but its not so attractive and we would need big screens to be able to shoot far away objects

http://interscript.de/Ingo/1080p_fov_room_night.png

http://i.imgur.com/ITB9O.jpg

still only 90 - now doulbe that fisheye: http://cdn.overclock.net/f/fc/fc14369e_05fa620c6c31ef4e10b8f41505836536.png

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/8394/sro2008040908191579cc1.jpg

unplayable..

Edited June 20, 2012 by tremanarch

[afp 1]

Interesting theory but holding RMB is really "zoom". If you dont belive it, check controls settings, its called "zoom". Also, you can use a real ACOG and see how it feels compared to ArmA.

[tremanarch 6]

maybe it says that in the options. But it aint zooming. Zooming means make all the things bigger. but what actually happenes with RMB is that you see a decreased field of view stretched onto the screen (so what is left seems larger. that is what Max Power tried to say:

One thing to take into account is that 1x zoom is not the default field of view in first person, but the zoomed in field of view. The default field of view is actually zoomed out a bit to get a wider view area.

it feels like a zoom, but it aint a real zoom.. when looking through the ACOG it only zooms, there is no altering of the FOV.. (of course you see a decreased cutout but not an altered Field of View I guess.

I still could be wrong here, but that is what I get the things are working out here... Not for sure though.

There is also a difference between horizontal and vertical FOV... (dunno how it is done in ArmA II)

Is there not even sth. about this matters in the ingames tutorial?

[sprayer_faust 0]

maybe you think holding the right MB is zoom?! its not. its the only way to portrait a 360° world onto a 2D screen.

It is - sometimes it's useful to know the definitions :D. Like you said, pressing the RMB increases the (apparent) angular diameter (the angle depicted on your sketch, usually measured in radians) of an object. The larger the angle at which you see the object, the bigger it seems to you. The factor for which an optical device increases that angle is called angular magnification/zoom. As someone else noted, binoculars and telescopes usually have their magnification specified as angular magnification (as opposed to linear).

[tremanarch 6]

ah okay ;) thats too much detail ..

it is just that the ACOG Zoom is 4x times of the RMB FOV and not the default -not-pressing-a-button FOV..

[lao fei mao 21]

If you guys have ever studied the CfgWeapons parameter: OpticsMin, OpticsMax, OpticsInit, you will find that all the optics zoom rate are actually based on 0.25, not 0.5(Default FOV view), so all the zoom rate in ArmA2 are actually doubled if you refrence the init FOV. Why BIS do it like this, because currently our monitor screen are not wide enough, if we use 0.25 for our init default, we would get very narrow FOV and would feel uncomfortable.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Lao Fei Mao

[_sherlock_ 12]

Realistic Acog sights are something that I've been hopeing for for quite some time. I suggested it two times in the Arma 3 suggestion thread (strangely enough, it still didn't make it onto the list). Unfortunately it seems we won't see it any time soon, since the e3 footage shows an acog-like sight with the cardboard-hole technique instead of at least zooming in the whole screen like any other game does it by now. It could however be that the used sight does not support the bindon aiming concept like an acog does and therefore would be realistic to loose the peripheral vision. So maybe we still might still see something new in Arma 3 in this regard (fingers crossed, although quite pessimistically ;) ).

Edited June 27, 2012 by _sherlock_

[afp 1]

Realistic Acog sights are something that I've been hopeing for for quite some time. I suggested it two times in the Arma 3 suggestion thread (strangely enough, it still didn't make it onto the list). Unfortunately it seems we won't see it any time soon, since the e3 footage shows an acog-like sight with the cardboard-hole technique instead of at least zooming in the whole screen like any other game does it by now. It could however be that the used sight does not support the bindon aiming concept like an acog does and therefore would be realistic to loose the peripheral vision. So maybe we still might still see something new in Arma 3 in this regard (fingers crossed, although quite pessimistically ;) ).

Indeed, one last thing I want to mention here, you dont stick your eye on optics like you do on binoculars because you end up with your eye hurt because of recoil. So there is more a tunnel vision for acogs and scopes, which is not quite well currently simulated. The field of view should be also a bit smaller. That's why in this picture everything looks closer to real:

http://imageshack.us/f/844/fovdemo.jpg/

[Fogu 10]

yeah please give us realistic Optics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6thfpoqOavQ