X-Ray Vision AI

[becubed 24]

Funny because I did just the opposite yesteday. Hid behind a ridge covered in grass after a tank spotted me. Switched to 3rd person and and moved my view so I could watch the tank. Crawled to the right and the turrent didn't move, just put sparodic fire at my original location. After about 30 meters I stood up in plain view and it took the tank a few seconds before it registered that I was there, swiveled the turrent and shot me.

Not in Arma but in Iron Front so call it unmodded 1.6.

If you have something that you think is wrong you need to be able to reproduce it in a mission and then post the mission and a report on the issue tracker. Unless you can show there is an issue, and make it available for others, the devs have and no way to test / verify.

Edited July 1, 2012 by becubed

[Bouben 3]

Funny because I did just the opposite yesteday. Hid behind a ridge covered in grass after a tank spotted me. Switched to 3rd person and and moved my view so I could watch the tank. Crawled to the right and the turrent didn't move, just put sparodic fire at my original location. After about 30 meters I stood up in plain view and it took the tank a few seconds before it registered that I was there, swiveled the turrent and shot me.

Not in Arma but in Iron Front so call it unmodded 1.6.

If you have something that you think is wrong you need to be able to reproduce it in a mission and then post the mission and a report on the issue tracker. Unless you can show there is an issue, and make it available for others, the devs have and no way to test / verify.

Are you sure that IF does not modify AI settings?

[chrisb 196]

Are you sure that IF does not modify AI settings?

I wouldn't think so, I have played IF with some self made missions, they seem to act very similar to the A2 ai. I can’t see that they would have spent much time altering the ai for IF, but I don’t play IF enough to test it out, no mods available as yet (or though not looked lately), so don’t play around with it too much..

In what way would you think they would modify the ai ?

[Bouben 3]

In what way would you think they would modify the ai ?

I don't know I am just asking, but in a similar way as every other significant mod does probably.

[Echo38 1]

Iron Front is not Arma. I have no reason to assume that they didn't adjust the A.I. I'd be surprised if they didn't.

Regardless, I've seen what I've seen. My computer can't run Arma well while recording, but I'll see if I can record a little test.

Update: Hmm, this is interesting. It appears to only occur on CTI/Warfare. I tried a test in the editor, in the same spot where it happened to me on CTI, and the AI acted clueless. I believe, as I said on the last page of this thread, that the AI in CTI cheats by using the command mode HUD display to find you. Try it out for yourself, so that you can see what they see; start a LAN game of Warfare, vote yourself as commander, and run around in command mode during combat. Cute little icons that you can see through buildings and walls and stuff, even when you have no LoS. They refresh constantly and are pinpoint accurate, unlike radar targeting. This even on absolute max realism/difficulty options.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Echo38

[maturin 12]

The behavior reported by Becubed is 100% normal and I have never been able to get a different result from him in lots and lots of careful tests.

Update: Hmm, this is interesting. It appears to only occur on CTI/Warfare. I tried a test in the editor, in the same spot where it happened to me on CTI, and the AI acted clueless. I believe, as I said on the last page of this thread, that the AI in CTI cheats by using the command mode HUD display to find you. Try it out for yourself, so that you can see what they see; start a LAN game of Warfare, vote yourself as commander, and run around in command mode during combat. Cute little icons that you can see through buildings and walls and stuff, even when you have no LoS. They refresh constantly and are pinpoint accurate, unlike radar targeting. This even on absolute max realism/difficulty options.

And there you have it. The importance of testing the AI when all factors are under your control.

HEY QAZDAR. Remember all your outlandish complaints about you and your warfare mates?

[Mattressi 10]

I have never been shot through pine needles that are close to the ground. They are the poster child for accurate viewblock. But you can't expect to invisible just because you can't see the enemy. Parts of you might be sticking out, and there are gaps. I need a bulletproof mission before I believe even a word of that one.

I've been shot through quite a few different 2D objects (leaves and such), but I think it's always been in mods. I know that the final mission of the OFP remake mod annoyed the hell out of me because AI would shoot through trees that they were behind. I was both in the open and eventually made it to the forest and took cover behind trees there, but I would still get shot at by AI who I couldn't see. This isn't an issue when they're in the open and I'm hiding (because I assume they're just being smart and shooting into the tree they saw me run behind), but it annoys the hell out of me that if they get LOS of me, then I run in a way that puts a bush right in front of them between me and them, they shouldn't be able to accurately shoot me while I continue moving. This is the only real fault I've found with the game. I also noticed something similar when playing a OA; I saw enemies run behind trees, with the leaves covering them (and right in front of them). I fired through the leaves and, despite being a good 100m away, instantly had fire returned accurately to my position. If I'd fired out of the bush, I would expect this, but I just can't see how someone could accurately pinpoint a shooters location from being shot through a tree right in front of them.

In short; enemies seem to react the same whether I'm shooting from cover right in front of me or shooting through cover right in front of them.

Can anyone confirm this still happens? This happened quite a while ago, so I'm not sure if it still happens.

[maturin 12]

I can't tell you how hard I've tried to get AI units to shoot through leaves. Unless they're in a furious firefight with tons of freaked out comrades directing their fire, it is almost impossible.

They can't acquire you as a point target unless someone has line of sight to you, or if you're less than 10, (or so) away.

In a game this complex, there's always room for weird shit and odd bugs, but I have a really hard time getting the AI to break the basic rules.

[Mattressi 10]

It might just be and issue with the OFP mod then. The time it happened in OA, it was a huge firefight, so maybe there was an enemy that could see me somewhere who was directing the other AI's fire (though, I still think it's too accurate even for directed fire when they're blindly shooting through leaves). Aside from that, the AI has always been extremely intelligent (relative to other games, of course), but also have acted with human limitations (like, shooting at my last known position while I crawl away).

[chrisb 196]

The debate over ai x ray vision, I can remember back in the ofp days, debating this in our group.

I don’t believe now that the ai can see through things, as in real life people see things that you can’t, or take longer to see, its just one of those things. I think overall the ai are pretty good and don’t have the advantage that some players think they do..

Pretty fair across the board I reckon and well balanced, only from my experience playing the game and imo..

[Hillsbills 1]

I've seen my own AI track enemy AI through buildings, it shouldn't be that hard to set up a test.

[maturin 12]

You say that like no one has. You are ignorant about AI tracking 101.

When a soldier sees an enemy run behind a building, they assume that he will continue on the same course at the same speed. They no longer have line of sight to him, only a predictive guess, and will follow his predicted position with their eyes and weapon. This allows them to catch you if you emerge on the far side of the building, but if you stop running, or change course, you can escape them.

But so far as most people are concerned, any time the AI does something actually smart, that they didn't expect...

RRRAAAAAGE! HAX!

[Echo38 1]

If I could let my Fraps run for 12 hours of gameplay, I would sooner or later get a good example. Unfortunately, I can't do that because it slows down my Arma, and also because of the file size of the raw videos. As with most software anomalies, reproducing it deliberately isn't as easy as it sounds, since there's no way to tell from sporadic occurrences what conditions cause it.

Maturin, I'm well aware of how the predictive A.I. works, and if you read my previous posts, you'd see that I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the A.I. following me with its machine-gun fire when I was moving unpredictably behind a solid obstacle of some sort. How the A.I. does this, and under what conditions, is still not known, although (as I said) I suspect it only occurs in CTI (in which, I believe, the AI uses the Command Mode to see things it shouldn't, as can a player-controlled commander also).

The question isn't whether or not the A.I. cheats. It absolutely does. The question is, when and how. (Oh--the question is also "in which game and version." A.I. behavior may differ greatly between A2 and A2OA.)

Edited July 2, 2012 by Echo38

[maturin 12]

My last post was responding to Hillsbills.

Your CTI and warfare experience isn't an instance of cheating AI, it's an instance of stupid mission design. If I put 'this allowdamage false' in the init of all the AI in my mission, I'm the one who cheats, not the AI.

And also, the AI will sometimes attempt to shoot through solid obstacles at their predictive target, so you really can't know whether or not someone is going wrong, unless you use a tracking script.

[Echo38 1]

I'd call it stupid mission design which allows for cheating : D

[maturin 12]

I couldn't agree more. Hence my earlier disrespect towards Qazdar's Warfare missions. I played Harvest Red, and Freedom Fighters, and Bear Rising. It never felt quite right.

[Echo38 1]

All, bar none, of the CTI/Warfare missions I've played have the command mode. I think it's integral to the Warfare game. Even the missions which come with the game have it. I'd love to get rid of it somehow, while still remaining able to command my armies. I play on max difficulty settings except for A.I. skill level; I want to have to navigate by map & compass, but that can't be done with all the unit icons on the map.

[maturin 12]

It's frustrating, because it should have been an easy glitch to avoid.

The AI already has the capability to gain information about a unit in a given radius. The command menu could simply supply the AI with your location to an accuracy of 100m. They would only know that you are 100m from a given point, rather than your exact location in real time.

[-Coulum- 35]

Yes, many missions give the ai an unfair advantage. But this is often because the ai was soblind in the first place. Ie. A mission maker wants a player's squad come under fire from a sniper 450m away... but the ai sniper is too blind to see that far even when the player is in the open. To fix this the mission designer reveals the player to the sniper via trigger. Its unfortunate that these things have to be implemented in the first place, and its even more unfortunate that people confuse them for ai bugs cheats etc.

Anyway, I made this video of the ai insane shooting/spotting skills. Sorry for the poor fps and lack of sound but I think you guys will get the gist of what it shows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53kd8Jg9TAQ&feature=plcp

The ai, which is at full skill, fails to see the enemy until he is under 200 metres away. I think its safe to say a human would be able to spot that enemy from at least 800m away with ease and identify him at least 350m away, and more like 500m if he had good sound situational awareness without even using the optics. If we were smart enough to use optics immediately upon spotting him we would be able to identify him at 800 metres. I think this clearly shows the ai's spotting skills are severley lacking in the open.

And the shooting isn't any better. The ai was shooting at the enemy at under 200m (166-181 to be exact) and he can't score a hit. And the way he shoots its just spastic. A human player would have to be having a seizure in order to shoot this badly. With those optics I would say that would only require 3 shots max from a human. I'd say one is probably more likely to score a hit.

I'm sorry but I don't see how the ai above is "too accurate" when a human can make 300m shots without optics in less time with relative ease.

And then there's the general stupidity of the ai. He can't decide whether he wants to move or shoot. In this case, as a player I would have just gone prone and shot until the other guy was dead. But the ai seems to think he needs a closer shot and continues to run up to the enemy. Its this kind of behaviour that allows players to get scores of ai kills and makes a flanking attack by the ai really ineffective because they are so slow to actually shoot that humans can react to the flank easily.

All in all there are many things that need to be improved, but at this point I don't think they really cheat. Maybe occasionally through smoke and when "directing" each other onto targets, but really their skills are significantly lower than an subpar gamer, and the ai are supposed to represent trained soldiers.

Right now the only thing I think needs to be "taken away" from the ai is their ability to pinpoint muzzleflashes as long as they are in their POV, and make their spotting more dynamic - better in the open, worse in dense areas (forest/rubble etc). Otherwise Bis should only be aiming to make the ai better.

The AI already has the capability to gain information about a unit in a given radius.

hey maturin, Will the ai sometimes use this radius to try and do area/suppressive fire? I believe I heard someone say they did, but it happens only very rarely. What conditions have to be met for the ai to do this kind of area fire? I think if the ai did this at longer ranges people would be alot less critical about the ai "aimbotting".

[maturin 12]

hey maturin, Will the ai sometimes use this radius to try and do area/suppressive fire? I believe I heard someone say they did, but it happens only very rarely. What conditions have to be met for the ai to do this kind of area fire? I think if the ai did this at longer ranges people would be alot less critical about the ai "aimbotting".

Yes, they will, and whoever you heard that from may have been me. It is very rare, and the radius typically only before before visual contact, or after a unit has gone quite in grass for a few seconds.

I think increasing the frequency of this mechanic is the closest thing to a silver bullet for AI spotting realism and playability.

[-Coulum- 35]

Yes, they will, and whoever you heard that from may have been me. It is very rare, and the radius typically only before before visual contact, or after a unit has gone quite in grass for a few seconds.

I think increasing the frequency of this mechanic is the closest thing to a silver bullet for AI spotting realism and playability.

Yeah I think it was you who said this. I agree that if this type of shooting were to occur more, especially at range of 350 - 800+, it would go along way to increasing realism, playbility, firefight lengths etc. Especially if it were combined with vastly improve spotting ranges.

I'd also like to see a relationship between ai aimspeed and accuracy. They should be able to score hits at 500 metres, but it should take them a fair amount of time to line up those shots. but they should also have the ability to fire off quick rather inaccurate shots as well. The ai should then choose between these shooting "modes" or even blend the two together depending on their situation.

although obviously with rifles and at range rather than with handguns at point blank.

[Bouben 3]

Guys (Maturin, Coulum), I so hope BIS will take into their consideration suggestions you two have written so far. I play this game single player only and need much better AI to play with.

[orcinus 121]

To return the original issue of this thread, there's an experiment anyone can try for themselves to squish the notion that AI can see in the dark without NVGs, TI weapons, etc.

Download thomsonb's recent v1.21 Flashpoint Takistan. Play without any mods. Set it up with NO light vehicles, armour, choppers or planes - just foot-soldiers. Select US (or BAF) vs Takiban .

Spawn distances 300 minimum, 600 maximum. No cloud, no fog, time 12:00 midday. Play whatever side & type you want BUT - find a safe place to hide, and just watch the score (0-0-0). After 20 minutes, record kills on each side.

Restart but change the time to 12:00 midnight, 85% cloud, no fog. Repeat.

Results have a spread depending on spawn randomness, but typically the midday runs will range from about 2:1 to 4:1 Blufor kills:Opfor kills, but with the midnight setting this will range from about 4:1 up to 10:1.

Why? In these missions, the Takiban do not have any NVG or TI kit. If they had x-ray vision / perfect night vision, the scores would be very similar especially if averaged over multiple runs.

Repeat with US (or BAF) vs Takistani army & the difference is much less marked. The Takistani armay have NVGs and TI scopes (though, like other kit, not as good as the BLUFOR ones IMO).