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Syria - What should we do if anything?

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Colin Powell #2, sorry John Kerry ..

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/05/us-syria-crisis-usa-rebels-idUSBRE98405L20130905

Its actually: it did occur and "as described" is the debate, reality is your source, choose wisely we are not on the ground or weapons experts.

6 different governments now say the same thing, even Iran isn't denying it.

No shock at all, it was always going to be so, although we never know the higher political reasons why decisions are made from country to country with certain U turns. This wasnt anything to do with denial, and all to do with whom & everything to do with what's next regardless.

Edited by mrcash2009
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You need to listen to what various leaders are saying, the action is not 100% about the war in Syria, it's to:

Make a stand against someone who has broken international law and long standing treaties against the use of chemical weapons.

Other countries have WMD and will be watching the response.

Prevent further use of chemical weapons in Syria by sending a message that it will not be tolerated, message written on/delivered by bomb for emphasis.....

Hopefully destroy some/most of the weapons (probably not possible now they have had so much time to move them).

Possibly level choice structures such as Presidential Palace for punishment (it's isolated).

Listening to "various leaders" is a pretty bad advice considering one of that leaders told us that there were WMDs in Iraq or he told the world that the Iraq War was officially over, celebrating at an aircraft carrier a decade ago. There's various more examples.

So you're defending this "punishment" strategy? What good will it cause other than destroying some buildings and possibly igniting the conflict even more?

Clearly, this not a strategy. Exactly that kind of ignorism brought us the borders that were drawn in the region half a century ago:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-september-4-2013/sir-archibald-mapsalot-iii?xrs=share_copy

I'm sure the targets will be chosen carefully but expect tricks like you saw from Gadaffi - bodies removed from morgues to be placed in rubble, toys and children's clothes placed on rubble, nearby houses damaged and blown up afterwards, much Photoshop editing.

Oh yeah. The "surgical" strikes. Ofc. there were no civilians dead in Lybia since NATO had no knowledge of any casualties.

Well, some other sources do.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/05/14/nato-investigate-civilian-deaths-libya

And what about the kosovo? NATO surgical precision killed 500 there?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_during_Operation_Allied_Force

Not to count the "precision" of the US drones in Pakistan.

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Hi all

As I keep pointing out the politcal capital of trustworthyness has been spent on matters of dossiers from governments, it was frittered away on the lies of Iraq, and we all know the waste of lives and treasure that led us to.

We still have not investigated or convicted a single one of those involved in the lies that led to Iraq, instead we are now once again dancing to Saudi Arabia's wahhabi tune, we even have the very same Saudi Prince conducting the music.

Kind Regards walker

Edited by walker

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Listening to "various leaders" is a pretty bad advice considering one of that leaders told us that there were WMDs in Iraq or he told the world that the Iraq War was officially over, celebrating at an aircraft carrier a decade ago.

So they got the intel wrong/ possibly told some lies 10 years ago, are you saying we can't trust what anyone says for the next 1000 years because of a particular group of people? Doesn't make sense, it's very paranoid. None of those politicians from 2003 is in office now? This situation is very different, it's obvious WMD's were used, they have remains of the IRAMs used, anyone who knows the volume of material required to produce so many deaths knows who did it.

I didn't say no innocent people were killed, just to watch out for the usual tricks which we do see from time to time.

The bombing will no doubt kill people but we have yet to see protests from the various anti-war groups concerning the 100,000 plus killed in Syria and the ~1500 gassed in Damascus - why is it they are so selective in their anti-war protesting? The numbers killed by NATO action are tiny compared to the numbers killed by their own governments in the examples given.

@Walker: If you think SA supplied it, PROVE it - it's easy to say things, no evidence though. The story you keep posting says Al-Qaeda and affiliates have female fighters and they helped carry the chemical weapons - since when did Radical Islam embrace equality?

Edited by Mattar_Tharkari

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(...) If you think SA supplied it, PROVE it - it's easy to say things, no evidence though. (...)

That's some nerve there don't you think? You could at least pretend to require from those advancing the war stance the same standard for evidence... no?

Burden of proof is on those advancing the stance with most consequencial effects, namely war on a sovereign country, very likely to effect the whole region, very likely the whole world. "Let's shread the cornerstone of the international justice system on the whim of a minority of fanatical believers".

Let me quote myself from a year ago:

THE COMMON PLAN OR CONSPIRACY AND AGGRESSIVE WAR.

The Tribunal now turns to the consideration of the Crimes against peace charged in the Indictment. Count One of the Indictment charges the defendants with conspiring or having a common plan to commit crimes against peace. Count Two of the Indictment charges the defendants with committing specific crimes against peace by planning, preparing, initiating, and waging wars of aggression against a number of other States. It will be convenient to consider the question of the existence of a common plan and the question of aggressive war together, and to deal later in this Judgment with the question of the individual responsibility of the defendants.

The charges in the Indictment that the defendants planned and waged aggressive wars are charges of the utmost gravity. War is essentially an evil thing. Its consequences are not confined to the belligerent states alone, but affect the whole world.

To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.

(continued)

The first acts of aggression referred to in the Indictment are the seizure of Austria and Czechoslovakia: and the first war of aggression charged in the Indictment is the war against Poland begun on the 1st September 1939.

Before examining that charge it is necessary to look more closely at some of the events which preceded these acts of aggression. The war against Poland did not come suddenly out of an otherwise clear sky; the evidence has made it plain that this war of aggression, as well as the seizure of Austria and Czechoslovakia, was pre-meditated and carefully prepared, and was not undertaken until the moment was thought opportune for it to be carried through as a definite part of the pre-ordained scheme and plan.

For the aggressive designs of the Nazi Government were not accidents arising out of the immediate political situation in Europe and the world; they were a deliberate and essential part of Nazi foreign policy.

From the beginning, the National Socialist movement claimed that its object was to unite the German people in the consciousness of their mission and destiny, based on inherent qualities of race, and under the guidance of the Fuehrer.

For its achievement, two things were deemed to be essential: The disruption of the European order as it had existed since the Treaty of Versailles, and the creation of a Greater Germany beyond the frontiers of 1914. This necessarily involved the seizure of foreign territories.

War was soon to be inevitable, or at the very least, highly probable, if these purposes were to be accomplished. The German people, therefore, with all their resources, were to be organized as a great political-military army, schooled to obey without question any policy decreed by the State.

We'll see if some years from now there will be a "Nuremberg" for the aggressions already commited or the one currently being forged.

What should we do if anything?

Help the "German" people NOT be "schooled to obey without question any policy decreed by the State."

Help the "German" people nurture critical thought, specially against information enabling the agenda of war.

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2411885/Syrias-chemical-weapons-Pentagon-knew-2012-75-000-ground-troops-secure-facilities.html

Pentagon knew in 2012 that it would take 75,000 GROUND TROOPS to secure Syria's chemical weapons facilities

Well, lets hope not ... then again its open season now to what will come.

So they got the intel wrong/ possibly told some lies 10 years ago, are you saying we can't trust what anyone says for the next 1000 years because of a particular group of people? Doesn't make sense, it's very paranoid. None of those politicians from 2003 is in office now?

The faces and positions change the advisors and those around and higher dont. There is no reset button for this, its all linked back to the past as a knock on effect and shouldn't be treated any different.

Edited by mrcash2009

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Bums in seats & new faces isn't legislation and updated laws, so its true the structure is different for sure, but thats at one level .. its just more up to date from what was inset before it & built upon, if anything was different we wouldn't have ground-hog day & the world would flock to the same tune, and its clear they do not. A corperation changes staff, the corporate entity doesn't.

Edited by mrcash2009

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Hi all

In reply to Mattar_Thakari's point about every one in leadership has changed.

No they have not, the Saudi Prince who was so involved in supplying the intelligence "assets" and intel that lead to the mess that was Iraq is exactly the same person pulling the strings today.

More importantly we are talking here is about institutional failure's and in fact those institutional failures are coming from the same kind of contractor amateur spies, in the case of Iraq, rumsfeld's Office of Special Plans (OSP) and in this case Contractor intel.

The fundamental failure of Contractor Intel is that is not for the nations good it is for the share holder good. And like the dross that came out of the OSP we are seeing similar errors and crud intel coming out.

A case in point is the picture that was being circulated to media by certain sources and even referred to by John Kerry in his evidence to get congress to agree to war, and that has been spread across the media:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9293620/BBC-News-uses-Iraq-photo-to-illustrate-Syrian-massacre.html

Turns out it was from Iraq and was skeletons from Halabja that were recovered from a mass grave in the Desert

This is not carefully considered Intelligence lead evidence of who was involved, this is "Find us an excuse to go to war."

On the Matter of Sarin I clear stated that witnesses to the event pointed the finger at certain Saudi Arabian Prince with the defense and Intelligence department of Saudi Arabia and as such they would have no problem making Chemical weapons or just buying them off the shelf. That much petro chemical industry and petro dollars would be more than capable to produce Sarin by one means or another. Sarin is after all WWII technology.

Overall what we come to is:

  • A public that does not believe what its Intelligence Community produces because no one has spent the time to root out those who lied in order to take us into the mistake that was Iraq.
  • Calls from a distrusted political class for a War in the middle east where average Western citizen is sick of it.
  • The unmistakable odor of yet more Saudi Wahhabi empire building attempts, paid for with Western soldiers lives, and western treasure.
  • The blow back of supporting Wahhbi Al Qaeda, the last time we did that it was Charley Wilson's war and 9/11 was the result.

It is fairly obvious that we have a Saudi Arabia that is looking to destabilize its neighbors to make them more ripe for the Wahhabi creed and the recreation of the Caliphate.

We in the west need to stop being their puppets.

It is better to jaw-jaw than to war-war

Winston Churchill

sub-heading on p. 1 of The New York Times, June 27, 1954 -

http://quotationsbook.com/quote/44971/#sthash.XiaX9ooG.dpbs

Kind Regards walker

Edited by walker

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@Walker so the BBC made a mistake, they still get it right more often than you do. Tell us more about your witnesses and the female fighters of Al-Nusra and Al-Qaeda ROFL. You really expect people to believe Islamic Extremists used women to carry weapons? Story doesn't add up at all. You may as well go with the other nonsense that Israel supplied chemical weapons to AlQaeda.

So all the governments are lying are they? Are all the people who are sitting in refugee camps lying too? Nearly 25% of the Syrian population are displaced, they all say the same thing, we left because planes & helicopters kept bombing our village.

If you care so much about human rights and the average citizen could we hear your thoughts on the ordinary syrian who will face another winter living in a tent?

I notice in a thread about the banking crisis I searched the other day you explain your involvement with anarchism - I guess Syria with all the human suffering must be some kind of epiphany for you? As long as the anti-USA & anti corporation agenda moves forward a little who cares about people gassing children, 100,000 dead and millions displaced? Can you remember who started killing 1st and firing on protesters?

'Registered' Syrian refugees reach 2 million (unregistered could double that figure) - A year ago, that number was 230,671:

130903163638-03-syrian-refugees-0903-horizontal-gallery.jpg

I don't think a coalition of anarchists, trolls & conspiritards will do much to help them :). Can I ask where the anti-war protesters were 2 years ago when these people needed them?

Edited by Mattar_Tharkari

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I don't think a coalition of anarchists, trolls & conspiritards will do much to help them lol. Can I ask where the anti-war protesters were 2 years ago when these people needed them?

Do you always have to resort to this stereotype name calling, I guess you must, doesn't help a jot to anyone really. Dont forget that the same can be said exactly for wrist slapping if it goes ahead and the people still dont get out of camps, and also the same can be said for any "trustworthy" rebels getting a foothold after that, if that happened. And again this is no place for moral high-grounds becuase the tangled web of whos being supported and prior lead up to this leaves allot to be desired, atrocities and selective intervention isn't new.

I said it before Iraq is the blueprint of this approach, the same guilt trip mantra, the same people in the middle (the people who try to live a normal life) getting worse than when it began. Its a tricky situation and black an white tit for tat wont do anything (in terms of what is done next).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23990788

I see its still unsettled after G8, the only way this will play out right is a "trigger" of what we will have to see via the UN maybe.

Edited by mrcash2009

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Do you always have to resort to this stereotype name calling, I guess you must, doesn't help a jot to anyone really.

I was referring to a population on the internet who persist in fantasy. I am called names directly and often, every week, I don't go wailing and crying to moderators, reporting those posts and PM's or attempt to get you banned simply because I disagree with what you say.

Edited by Mattar_Tharkari

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I would like to remind everyone that personal attacks of any kind aren't really acceptable around here, even if they are merely insinuated or just "vaguely" directed at a group that may or may not encompass other forum members.

The forum rules do apply in the off-topic section, so please adhere to them.

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One of the rockets found in the attack zone:

markings-and-body.jpg

Video of uniformed personnel in a government controlled area launching a rocket of the same type, on the day of the attack:

U.N. chemical weapons inspectors collecting soil at one of the rockets' landing sites:

Syria%20Intelligence%20Doubts.JPEG-0e15e.jpg

And to top it all off, now there are videos of U.N. chemical weapons inspectors getting "hits" for hazardous chemicals at various rocket landing sites, including at the one in the image above, using a Smiths LCD 3.3 chemical warfare agent detector:

While none of this is concrete enough evidence to go to war over, it's probably the best the public is going to get at the moment... At least until the U.N. report comes out.

Can we stop with this "Lets blame the victim, without evidence!" conspiracy nonsense, please?

Edited by Ballistic09

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You really expect people to believe Islamic Extremists used women to carry weapons? Story doesn't add up at all.

They used women since 1994, in the Caucasus for example. Female snipers, observers, suicide bombers, sometimes even regular fighters equipped with rifles.

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One of the rockets found in the attack zone:

http://rogueadventurer.com/2013/08/25/preliminary-analysis-of-alleged-cw-munitions-used-in-syria/

As regards that image its best to link the whole article and site also to confirm the source, not suggesting anything, but its good to know. Some of the video links need clarification also, I say this because the argument of videos that say the opposite are also similar video sources and they are outright slammed.

I only say this not becuase I think its all B.S .. but just the balance of the source, IE: if this is acceptable then the same can be said for the other types. :)

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while i don't want to degrade the possibility of regime using the chemical weapons (% probability higher)

be advised the CW could be deployed by airplanes and normal artilery shells too

(also quite some of that is in form of airburst above ground to cover neeed area)

the area was before and after attack undergoing lenghty bombardment inluding rockets

so it's questionable if there are just unexplode conventional or cw delivery platforms

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obama's clearly doing this to distract from his incompetence in domestic affairs. nothing draws media attention away from the president's poor economic policies faster than another war or conflict overseas.

as for what i think should be done...leave them. there are no "good guys" in a conflict where both sides are intentionally killing innocents.

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http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/buergerkrieg-in-syrien-assad-offiziere-draengten-auf-angriffe-mit-giftgas-1.1765086

Ok basicly this article (from a conservative newspaper) says that the German spy ship "Oker" intercepted radio calls from syrian officers in which they requested since a period of 4 months to use nerve gas in an attack, but were always denied by the presidential palace.

The german intelligence (BND) also says that they think assad will be still in place and power following air strikes, which is also my assumption (air strikes without a contingency plan... yeah, wonder who was such intelligent to come up with that).

Furthermore the BND says that the FSA has lost it's military supremecy, de facto they wouldn't exist anymore. On the contrary al Quaida influence was rising, leading to dramatic changes. They say there are next to none deserters from the syrian army anymore as most deserters would instantly get shot by the rebel forces.

----------

With all this info, it seems that IF any nerve gas strike was done by the syrian army it truly was not connected to Assad. Why should syria be judged any different than other states, including the USA? If war crimes were committed, the USA convicted the ones directly responsible for the attacks (if it even came to that) and clearly Assad is not the culprit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes

Also interesting to read the developtment of the rebel forces. There's your freedom loving people right there.

Edited by Icewindo

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Instead of posting a picture, maybe you could post your arguments?

If that picture is directed at my post, it is invalid. Saddam Hussein was never convicted for the nerve gas attacks as there was no evidence for him to be involved. His cousin, the "chemical ali" was found to be the one ordering the strikes. Yeah, there were documents leading to sarin gas involvement with the kurds but these were all documents leading directly to Saddam Hussein.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack#Trials_of_Saddam_and_.27Chemical_Ali.27

Saddam Hussein was not charged by the Iraqi Special Tribunal for crimes against humanity based on the events at Halabja. However, Iraqi prosecutors had "500 documented baskets of crimes during the Hussein regime" and Hussein was condemned to death based on just one case, the 1982 Dujail Massacre.

With Assad the BND evidence is clearing him of the charges and pointing out to insubordinate officers. Did Obama get tried for the actions of Robert Bales? No. Because he never ordered him to do such a thing.

Edited by Icewindo

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Instead of posting a picture, maybe you could post your arguments?

That picture isn't directed at your post, just shows who is the hero of some dudes supported by US& some EU members. A person who was the target of US & NATO just some years ago. Now 'freedom fighters' sponsored by democratic countries paint bloody dictator that was convicted with mass murders and -cheers!- having and using CW against civilians. Funny isn't it? Maybe later we'll find some Osama Bin Laden pics at the vehicles used by opposition... Who knows?

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I know Hussein was sunni, but the irony is that his former enemies support his current admirers.

But Assad family is also well known for mass murders.

Muslim brotherhood rebellion during the wartime you mean? Just average reaction of every regime for such things.

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