Syria - What should we do if anything?

[maturin 12]

One of the last stands of Gaddafi and his army was a hospital in Sirte. If anyone bombed hospitals with DPICM munitions it was NATO. There are videos proving this fact. Hospital was all the time targeted by cruise missiles and DU/WP ammunition.

Targeted by DU/WP/DPICM cruise missiles? That must be quite the warhead! Does it carry bubonic plague as well?

Now where are your facts now? Gaddafi is a bad guy but NATO are good guys even though they both did same things, proven both of our claims are right?

You haven't read my posts, have you? I started off by stating that both the U.S. and Russia have used cluster weapons in populated areas. Spooky Lynx is the one who believes in the fairy tale of the evil NATO and the virtuous Russia. Somehow ruthless middle eastern dictatorships are also beyond reproach when they ally with Russia. It's the magic of jingoism!

[Jastreb 69]

Targeted by DU/WP/DPICM cruise missiles? That must be quite the warhead! Does it carry bubonic plague as well?

Youre twisting my words, I said cruise missiles and DU/WP ammunition. Missiles can have different types of warheads, but not all in one, but you knew that already right?

You haven't read my posts, have you? I started off by stating that both the U.S. and Russia have used cluster weapons in populated areas. Spooky Lynx is the one who believes in the fairy tale of the evil NATO and the virtuous Russia. Somehow ruthless middle eastern dictatorships are also beyond reproach when they ally with Russia. It's the magic of jingoism!

You know what I was talking about when I mentioned cruise missiles and DU/WP/BLU ammunition. Its not one warhead with a mix of these, but all were used. But you knew that already right?

Yes I did read you post, but I was just sticking to usage of cluster bombs that you mentioned by Gaddafi forces. I agree that everyone still uses them no matter if they signed its ban or not. Its effective weapon, and war is hell. As I said above "goal justifies the means" ( sadly ), and most of times civilian lives are last to take care of ( unfortunately ), no matter who is bombing whom. Stop fucking wars, and you stopped DU/WP/BLU and all different kinds of shit a man has made just to harm himself one day.

How does this applies to Syria? If UN does not do anything and Nato keeps away, Syrian regime might regain control and stop this madness. If UN and Nato interfere, there will be more destruction and even more civilian casualties, no doubt there. It can even cause a much greater conflict in ME which could not be stopped so easy and will last very long, and might expand to Europe/Asia. Do we want that to happen? Stop here, before its too late.

Edited October 17, 2012 by _MaSSive

[hellfire257 3]

Targeted by DU/WP/DPICM cruise missiles? That must be quite the warhead! Does it carry bubonic plague as well?

:D

Don't forget the lurgy too!

This is all semantics. Assad needs to go.

[spooky lynx 73]

Uh, huh. Russians make magic explosives that cut through over 100mm of steel armor plate but bounce off human skin with light damage.

Aye, how do HEAT projectiles work and penetrate the target? Read it please.

The existence of wartime propaganda doesn't allow you to doubt all facts. Ask the survivors of the team of journalists who were hit by it. "Human Rights Watch (HRW), an international rights group, accused Russia of indiscriminately deploying cluster bombs in civilian areas during the 2008 conflict. HRW said that Russian aircraft had dropped RBK-250 cluster bombs, each containing 30 PTAB 2.5M submunitions or "bomblets" in the center of Gori on August 12, killing at least eight civilians and injuring dozens more." HRW being, of course, the organization (with plenty of Russians on staff in the region), the organization that exposed most of the Georgian war crimes in 2008.

Why should I ask anybody if I was not so far from that places?:)

Ghaddafi used DPICM in Misrata; that's a fact. And stop it with your excessively narrow thinking. Cluster munitions are a great way to douse an entire block of houses or intersection with ordinance, covering ground that a single HE shell never could. The munitions will fall between the gaps to hit multiple streets and courtyards, suppressing movement around an entire large building like a hospital. Such large municipal structures are also covered with windows. All the patient's rooms are exposed to the street, as are vulnerable implements like OXYGEN tanks. Targeting a hospital with DPICM would seriously endanger people inside and prevent others from approaching it safely.

If it was so then our army would use much more cluster munitions in the urban warfare. But IRL they suppose ordinary HE rounds more suitable for collapsing the building with hostile forces in it. So does most of other armies (never seen much cluster rounds fired when some more or less hard and heavy building has to be destroyed). Only JDAM with HE warhead or FAB-500-like bomb. Cluster bomblets have too weak warhead to damage most of solid and hard buildings. Even there are many of them they won't give the same effect as heavy single warhead hitting the roof or wall. Small projectiles can seriously damage building only when they are placed in most vulnerable places and detonated simultaneously. It's good to strike a block of houses by cluster only if you know exactly that there's a lot of uncovered soft targets, stored ammo and vehicles on the streets between them. In other ways it's a waste of bombs/shells and most of bomblets will hit nothing valuable.

But I know you will keep on pretending that facts and documentation don't exist, so that Russia and its geopolitical allies are perfectly moral, while the West is completely evil. It's not like both are flawed governments that sometimes use excessive force and disregard inconvenient moral and legal standards or anything... It's often said that Russians see shades of grey, but you argue like a mindless, jingoistic American meathead.

Again why should I believe somebody who may even hadn't been there if I saw many things they talk about by myself and can compare what is shown and what was IRL there?

[Tonci87 163]

You live in Saratov, that´s quite far away from Grosny, where do you get your knowledge from?

[spooky lynx 73]

You live in Saratov, that´s quite far away from Grosny, where do you get your knowledge from?

Away? ~10-12 h of driving by car (with stops for dinner:)), 1184 km. I shouldn't say it's very far.

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Just would like to point out that if cluster munitions on a block of houses makes sense to me, somebody who doesn't know very much about their specifications or launch platforms/delivery systems, then it would sure as hell make sense to a military commander. Your goal isn't to blow up the buildings. Your goal is to kill anybody that's in those alleyways, to damage or disable any vehicles they might have, blow up any fuel caches, etc. (like you said) BUT the biggest and most important reason?

Fear.

Imagine dozens or hundreds of grenade sized explosions around the building you've secured. Once it stops, is your ass actually going to venture outside now? Are you going to move from your cover? REALLY think about this. If you answer yes, then you're either lying, have been under fire before & it wouldn't phase you, or you've got guts. But if you're like the majority of the population, the answer is not only no, but "Hell no, you walk your fucking ass out there and bring in the groceries.". A large portion of the rebels are normal people. Shopkeepers, etc. They are learning soldiering, but they are not soldiers. If it comes to it, the cluster munitions would keep the enemy pinned until artillery, armor, or air could be brought to bear in numbers great enough to ensure destruction of the target, or to cordon off the area and wipe it off the map.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Away? ~10-12 h of driving by car (with stops for dinner:)), 1184 km. I shouldn't say it's very far.

Says the guy living in the biggest country in the world ;)

[spooky lynx 73]

Imagine dozens or hundreds of grenade sized explosions around the building you've secured. Once it stops, is your ass actually going to venture outside now? Are you going to move from your cover? REALLY think about this. If you answer yes, then you're either lying, have been under fire before & it wouldn't phase you, or you've got guts.

Unfortunately I know how explosion of hand grenade nearby looks like and how does it sound. And I know how does look explosion of 120-mm mortar or 122-mm artillery shells (and seen the results of its explosions). So I can say impact of 'piggy' (120-mm mortar shell) or D-30 shell is way more horrible than lots of but small bomblets (if you are hiding in the building). It's more horrible when the building starts shaking and falling apart after hit of 122 or 152-mm shells than some grenades bounce around.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Spooky Lynx

[Amra 10]

Quite an interesting interview: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2012/10/199292.htm#syria All that US Department of State can answer on direct questions is bleat and moo about "democracy", "freedom", "rights of people", "stability and peace" and other general nonsense. For everything good against everything bad lol. How pathetic.

[ProfTournesol 956]

"democracy", "freedom", "rights of people", "stability and peace" and other general nonsense.

Those words may not have a sense anymore in Putin's Russia (and more so days after days), but they have a meaning somewhere else.

Edited October 19, 2012 by ProfTournesol

[Jastreb 69]

Those words may not have a sense anymore in Putin's Russia (and more so days after days), but they have a meaning somewhere else.

Like Venezuela?

Seriously you didn't mean USofA? Ok lets keep it on topic in this off topic..

[ProfTournesol 956]

Like Venezuela?

Seriously you didn't mean USofA? Ok lets keep it on topic in this off topic..

Venezuela is very far from being a democracy, and isn't under US influence. And yes, those words have much more meanings in the USA than in Russia or Venezuela nowadays, for sure. USA is a real democracy, with all its flaws, and God knows i'm very far from agreeing with all what this country did the last 10 years (in particular the pitiful and shameful Iraki venture of the Bush family and friends), but still.

Edited October 20, 2012 by ProfTournesol

[ProfTournesol 956]

Another bombing on Lebanese soil, the last of a very long list, lot's of them being done by Assad's secret services, killing Lebanese oponents to Assad's regime. Funny thing is that Syrian government condemned it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20013895

[slatts 1978]

Another bombing on Lebanese soil, the last of a very long list, lot's of them being done by Assad's secret services, killing Lebanese oponents to Assad's regime. Funny thing is that Syrian government condemned it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20013895

Good ol' plausible deniability eh

[oxmox 73]

I would not wonder about if in Lebanon something similar starts like in Syria. It belongs to the shia axis Iraq-Iran-Syria-Lebanon and at the end that would fit like the happenings in Syria, to weaken the Iran besides other power fights.

[Jastreb 69]

I would not wonder about if in Lebanon something similar starts like in Syria. It belongs to the shia axis Iraq-Iran-Syria-Lebanon and at the end that would fit like the happenings in Syria, to weaken the Iran besides other power fights.

Its all staged, clear as day reading that article. Someone wants war there sadly again. So next stop Lebanon....Beirut here we go again..

[i76 1]

Blablabla...is there any oil in Syria ?

Learn to read bro... its all about the US dollar retaining its hegemony, OIL is just a bonus....... eyes open?!

Like Venezuela?

Seriously you didn't mean USofA? Ok lets keep it on topic in this off topic..

Sadly Venezuela will be a target soon.

America is fast heading toward fascism, they use to be great before 1921 but in the last 80 years have become a vicious school yard bully with imperialist intentions aka scumfuck.

... but the controlling criminal element in the US government are just puppets... anyone curious why all American presidents but 2 are in some form or another related and their bloodlines are all connected to European royalty... how far down the rabbit hole do the sheeple dare travel?

Edited October 22, 2012 by i76

[ProfTournesol 956]

Sadly Venezuela will be a target soon.

America is fast heading toward fascism, they use to be great before 1921 but in the last 80 years have become a vicious school yard bully with imperialist intentions aka scumfuck.

And what happened in 1921 which made them become so bad ?

[i76 1]

And what happened in 1921 which made them become so bad ?

Sorry, 1913... so many events, so many dates.

December 23, 1913 - Congress passed the Federal Reserve Act of 1913; promised to change the nation's banking system; paved the way for the Federal Banking System (network of twelve regional banks); called for all national banks to join the federal system via hefty one-time deposits into a pooled account; charged Federal Reserve banks with serving as resources to aid and stabilize the nation's other banks; resulting network of banks tied together by the Federal Reserve Board, newly minted Federal Reserve note.

http://theunjustmedia.com/Banking%20&%20Federal%20Reserve/The%20Federal%20Reserve%20is%20Privately%20owned.htm

[hellfire257 3]

Why do so many of the tin foil hat crowd congregate here? :j:

[batto 17]

Why do so many of the tin foil hat crowd congregate here? :j:

Why does every unpopular but rational thought receive dumb reply from brainless rednecks ?

[Jastreb 69]

Learn to read bro... its all about the US dollar retaining its hegemony, OIL is just a bonus....... eyes open?!

Sadly Venezuela will be a target soon.

America is fast heading toward fascism, they use to be great before 1921 but in the last 80 years have become a vicious school yard bully with imperialist intentions aka scumfuck.

... but the controlling criminal element in the US government are just puppets... anyone curious why all American presidents but 2 are in some form or another related and their bloodlines are all connected to European royalty... how far down the rabbit hole do the sheeple dare travel?

Venezuela is American backdoor, dont forget "the Big Bear" landing. Chavez is old and ill he might die any minute and what happens after him? I suspect some form of springtime in south America similar to ME, with less guns that is.

Funny how we share the same vision, especially the bolder part of your post. Same thing Germans tried in last century, but these are wearing white gloves, and are much harder to oppress. To all citizens of USA who find this offensive, its your government and people who control it, its not you if you dont back it up, and give it legitimate right to do what they do. Same thing happened in Germany when German people gave Hitler mandate to do what he did. Wake up its time.

Sorry, 1913... so many events, so many dates.

December 23, 1913 - Congress passed the Federal Reserve Act of 1913; promised to change the nation's banking system; paved the way for the Federal Banking System (network of twelve regional banks); called for all national banks to join the federal system via hefty one-time deposits into a pooled account; charged Federal Reserve banks with serving as resources to aid and stabilize the nation's other banks; resulting network of banks tied together by the Federal Reserve Board, newly minted Federal Reserve note.

http://theunjustmedia.com/Banking%20&%20Federal%20Reserve/The%20Federal%20Reserve%20is%20Privately%20owned.htm

Ahh yes, the root of all evil. Good reminder.

Edited October 22, 2012 by _MaSSive

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Why does every unpopular but rational thought receive dumb reply from brainless rednecks ?

Why do you feel the need to use the word redneck as an insult? We have feelings to ya know, and it's those goshdarn yankees who are the brainless ones, everybody knows that.

:j:

[ProfTournesol 956]

Come on guys, the topic is Syria, not name calling nor USA.