Syria - What should we do if anything?

[batto 17]

Krone, Austria's newspaper

[PELHAM 10]

posted before completion - please ignore.

Edited July 29, 2012 by PELHAM

[gammadust 12]

Batto stop posting made up nonsense - in the picture at the top her bag is outside the left hand side of the photo where someone has pasted it badly.

You mean like the denouncement of Krone manipulation is a photo manipulation itself? You go to great lengths indeed.

Gianluca Wallisch @derGianni

Journalist @ Der Standard. Strictly own opinions, own views. Some journo stuff now and then.

Vienna, Austria, Europe

Link to the tweetpik

_______

On other news, an update by Alex Thomson.

Edited July 29, 2012 by gammadust

[Thunderbird 0]

An external international intervention is in my judgement, significant, only if it ensures that islamists don't get involved in any form, to the politics of the nation once it is fully freed. Tunisia, Egypt and Lybia freedoms are in a certain way established, but in another one, they went 60 years back... Had the chance to judge on my own by getting to Tunisia a few months ago... : /

Regards,

TB

[PELHAM 10]

Do you have a source for that made up picture batto? The story doesn't appear in the Krone.at archive for the 28th and I'm not sure I believe that an editor would use a Reuters photo of Homs not Aleppo with a cut out pasted so badly the woman's bag is hanging off the left side of the photo. The same single photo is doing the rounds on facebook and twitter - did no one else read that paper and take a photo of that page?

http://www.trust.org/alertnet/multimedia/pictures/detail.dot?mediaInode=e9e244f7-82e4-405f-a707-3f9a9625883a

You mean like the denouncement of Krone manipulation is a photo manipulation itself? You go to great lengths indeed.

If that really happened it would be in many different places please provide more. 1 photo copied from a dubious website and re-tweeted several times over is not enough. It would not surprise me if it were true - things like that have been done before when smoke was added in pictures from Lebanon and weapons were deleted from protestors on the Gaza Aid Ship.

Congrats on finding 1 blog post that supports your view - I could counter with hundreds of photos and videos of heavy weapons being used in populated areas. The odd manipulation of a genuine photo does not really prove much - the background is accurate even if the people and headlines are not, Al-Qussoor, Homs, credit - Reuters, it doesn't really need embellishment:

Edited July 30, 2012 by PELHAM

[Timnos 1]

This is seriously the finest footage you will ever see of the Syrian army in house to house combat -

EXPLICIT CONTENT REMOVED

Could someone please post this footage on Youtube.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Max Power

[gammadust 12]

News by der Standard.at (Gianluca Wallisch @derGianni - the journalist which tweeted the photo originaly)

"Krone" dramatisierte Bürgerkrieg in Syrien mit Photoshop

[spooky lynx 73]

Congrats on finding 1 blog post that supports your view - I could counter with hundreds of photos and videos of heavy weapons being used in populated areas. The odd manipulation of a genuine photo does not really prove much - the background is accurate even if the people and headlines are not, Al-Qussoor, Homs, credit - Reuters, it doesn't really need embellishment:

http://www.trust.org/resize_image?path=/dotAsset/e38f5f1a-5178-4888-be66-f136e2119bff.jpg&w=649

Is it Assad's soldier's fault that they don't want to play by their enemies' rules and lose their firepower advantage? They have the goal - defeat insurgents and they may use all available weapons. Syrian soldiers are humans too, so they don't want to become cannon fodder just because FSA occupies populated areas. Everywhere (Afghanistan, Iraq) armies use all available firepower to prevent any casualties, often no matter of collateral damage. Why Syrian army should act differently? Why FSA doesn't go to open field to have a clean fight with army but uses populated area as an alive shield? Oh wait, they'll be crushed in a day and, moreover, won't have any propaganda photos and videos source (because government army won't have to storm the cities and clean them out of FSA)...

[PELHAM 10]

News by der Standard.at (Gianluca Wallisch @derGianni - the journalist which tweeted the photo originaly)

"Krone" dramatisierte Bürgerkrieg in Syrien mit Photoshop

http://images.derstandard.at/t/12/2012/07/30/1342976865710.JPG

Yep I accept it's genuine - wow that 1 example must mean everything in every newspaper and TV news everywhere is fake.

---------- Post added at 12:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 PM ----------

Is it Assad's soldier's fault that they don't want to play by their enemies' rules and lose their firepower advantage? They have the goal - defeat insurgents and they may use all available weapons. Syrian soldiers are humans too, so they don't want to become cannon fodder just because FSA occupies populated areas. Everywhere (Afghanistan, Iraq) armies use all available firepower to prevent any casualties, often no matter of collateral damage. Why Syrian army should act differently? Why FSA doesn't go to open field to have a clean fight with army but uses populated area as an alive shield? Oh wait, they'll be crushed in a day and, moreover, won't have any propaganda photos and videos source (because government army won't have to storm the cities and clean them out of FSA)...

These people are defending their own neighbourhoods and homes, they don't go somewhere else to fight because there is no point - the areas and property they wish to exclude the regime from are in the cities. If you want to defend your house and family you don't wander 10 miles away to the nearest open field? There is some truth in what you say though, those city areas are more easily defended and forces the army to fight on more equal terms, which is why people from the rural areas also go there to fight.

The whole moral point is that an army is not supposed to be used against a nations own people, when you have a disagreement on this scale there should be a peaceful settlement. The Syrian government has used battlefield weapons against every major town in the country. This fact and other info tells you that a significant number, possibly a majority, no longer accept the government that is forced upon them. I'm not sure how thinking about this logically works elsewhere but most people would say that when that situation arises there should be some acceptance from the Syrian Government that they have lost the authority to govern. Attempting to reassert your authority by putting a gun to someone's head isn't the way to do it, that is morally wrong and a contravention of the United Nations Charter which Syria has signed, so it's illegal as well.

I suspect that if the Syrian Army wins this conflict they will immediately and without much notice hold an election similar to the one held before. Without time to form an opposition, access to media and millions of people from opposition areas living in exile Assad will win another landslide. That could be his tactic, many dictators simply drive dissenters out of the country and never allow them or their children back in. This was the exact method used by Assad senior in the 1980s when this situation last occurred. (see also China, Libya, Zimbabwe, Cuba, Afghanistan under the USSR etc for other examples of this)

Edited July 30, 2012 by PELHAM

[slatts 1978]

Yep I accept it's genuine - wow that 1 example must mean everything in every newspaper and TV news everywhere is fake.

I would be interested to know what category that newspaper falls under, is it like the comic book The Sun, or meant to be a more credible broadsheet.

If its more like The Sun I don't think we should care much tbh.

[gammadust 12]

I would be interested to know what category that newspaper falls under, is it like the comic book The Sun, or meant to be a more credible broadsheet.

If its more like The Sun I don't think we should care much tbh.

It is indeed a tabloid of The Sun type and all (even the girl page). Either of which have very high readership*, it's influence in public opinion is not irrelevant, another characteristic of this readership is its gullibility, where a thing like this would be taken at face value more easily.

EDIT: *"the average daily readership is 2,970,000 (14 years or older), which corresponds to 43.7% of all newspaper readers in Austria" - wikipedia.

[slatts 1978]

It is indeed a tabloid of The Sun type and all (even the girl page). Either of which have very high readership, it's influence in public opinion is not irrelevant, another characteristic of this readership is its gullibility, where a thing like this would be taken at face value more easily.

So yeah, I'm not surprised at all that a PS picture would appear in that sort of a newspaper. Page 2..real news, page 3..tits, page 4-till sport.. utter shite that includes celebs, uninteresting stories from people who want money and other random shite

[batto 17]

I would be interested to know what category that newspaper falls under, is it like the comic book The Sun, or meant to be a more credible broadsheet.

If its more like The Sun I don't think we should care much tbh.

It's tabloid. I've posted it before I searched. It's supposedly worse than The Sun (there is naked girl in each release, probably something like Blesk in ÄŒR).

What bothers me is that there is no independent journalism. It starts with Al Jazeera, then it's copied to Fox, BBC, ... and then it's copied everywhere (and such tabloids exaggerate it because they're for dumb people).

Ninja'd by gammadust

But wikipedia says it's largest newspaper in Austria.

[slatts 1978]

It's tabloid. I've posted it before I searched. It's supposedly worse than The Sun (there is naked girl in each release, probably something like Blesk in ÄŒR).

What bothers me is that there is no independent journalism. It starts with Al Jazeera, then it's copied to Fox, BBC, ... and then it's copied everywhere (and such tabloids exaggerate it because they're for dumb people).

Ninja'd by gammadust

From what I hear on the news and read in papers is that alot of Western journalists aren't allowed in Syria, those who are and get video or stories, other news groups will see this as "verified" and "credible" and decided to use it to go with their report.

It's been done for years and years, war or not ;)

[batto 17]

From what I hear on the news and read in papers is that alot of Western journalists aren't allowed in Syria

By their employers? Assad himself said that journalists are allowed.

[spooky lynx 73]

These people are defending their own neighbourhoods and homes, they don't go somewhere else to fight because there is no point - the areas and property they wish to exclude the regime from are in the cities. If you want to defend your house and family you don't wander 10 miles away to the nearest open field? There is some truth in what you say though, those city areas are more easily defended and forces the army to fight on more equal terms, which is why people from the rural areas also go there to fight.

Defend a home? O RLY? Thos people who live there say not so many FSA guys take battle in their neighbourhood... And what about those freedom fighters who are from Libya, Egypt, Afghanistan, Yemen?

Defend from what? Don't you know that armed rebellion is a crime no matter of its reason? I may get US citizenship, then start armed rebellion against [insert a good reason here]. How many hours will pass until I will be named terrorist?

[PELHAM 10]

By their employers? Assad himself said that journalists are allowed.

Yes they are allowed to sit in their hotel room in Damascus, as soon as they leave they are followed everywhere and delayed and interviewees are intimidated and interrupted by the secret police. Journalists have also been deliberately led into ambushes by the Shabiha and some deaths have occurred. Assad might say something but does it actually happen in practice?

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/07/despite-promises-from-assad-abc-news-crew-encountered-restrictions-in-syria/

http://www.smh.com.au/world/journalist-killed-in-syrian-army-trap-20120123-1qd3g.html

---------- Post added at 01:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:10 PM ----------

Defend a home? O RLY? Thos people who live there say not so many FSA guys take battle in their neighbourhood... And what about those freedom fighters who are from Libya, Egypt, Afghanistan, Yemen? Defend from what? Don't you know that armed rebellion is a crime no matter of its reason? I may get US citizenship, then start armed rebellion against [insert a good reason here]. How many hours will pass until I will be named terrorist?

In the US there is a verifiable and free democratic process - you have the means to vote if you don't like the govmnt. In Syria there is no means for anyone to change anything, Assad rules and can do what he likes, there is no way to disagree at any level. Now if this was a a small minority of people you might have a point. This is clearly so large and the demonstrations occurring nightly involve many thousands across the country, you can't really use that logic. You will notice that the army is over stretched and can't tackle the problem all at once. To tie up an entire army as large as the Syrian army takes many thousands of men. It is not simply an illegal armed rebellion as can be seen with the huge number of deffectors:

Syrian army supply crisis has regime on brink of collapse, say defectors. General who swapped sides says regime can last 'two months at most' as troop morale sinks and petrol trucks are ambushed. Assad is reportedly hiding inside the Russian Base at Tartus behind Russian security as he cannot trust his own people any longer.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/27/syrian-army-brink-of-collapse

Edited July 30, 2012 by PELHAM

[slatts 1978]

By their employers? Assad himself said that journalists are allowed.

Maybe, They never really said other then "Western journalists aren't allowd in these areas so this footage is unverified" .

[eble 3]

FSA being shown how it's done.... oh dear

Al-Qaida turns tide for rebels in battle for eastern Syria -

In his latest exclusive dispatch from Deir el-Zour province, Ghaith Abdul-Ahad meets fighters who have left the Free Syrian Army for the discipline and ideology of global jihad

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/30/al-qaida-rebels-battle-syria?CMP=twt_gu

Syria: foreign jihadists could join battle for Aleppo

Jihadists, many with al-Qaida sympathies, are said to be planning to join a decisive battle against regime troops

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/30/syria-foreign-jihadists-aleppo-al-qaida

Can we expect the US to help against these Al-Qaida fighters or are these good Al-Qaida fighters?

What happens if these Al-Qaida capture Chemical weapons?

Edited July 30, 2012 by Eble

[PELHAM 10]

One thing Al-Qaeda are too stupid to realise is that killing every regime soldier they capture, they are prolonging the war and making the suffering for the ordinary people worse. The regime will fight harder if they know they can't surrender. I think once it is all over the FSA will get rid of them like the Iraqis did. I noticed AQ bombed several towns in Iraq to let people know they are back in the region (enjoy it AQ, it's very temporary :D) .

Interesting video here of an interview with captured Syrian Secret Police in Al-Bab, Aleppo Province - the FSA seem to be handling things acording to the Geneva Conventions:

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Edited July 31, 2012 by PELHAM

[batto 17]

the FSA seem to be handling things acording to the Geneva Conventions

This guy is hopeless.

Anyway, if you want to see how FSA treat ordinary citizens because they didn't like them for some reason PM me and I'll send you some links (basically just brutal executions).

EDIT: I've just read RT from today and yesterday. US finished nuke capable of breaking through Iran's bunkers (no secrets). Saudis and Qatar will get Leopards. US increase it's subs presence in pacific. Russia plans to increase it's nuke subs fleet by 2020... Damn. Sh1t's getting real. Freedom for Syria? Really?

[PELHAM 10]

Oh well if you don't like that one how about some action pics of an Mi-24 dropping unguided bombs on cities (Tabliseh, Homs)?

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AeK3zRTKabE

2nd vid is a tail fin recovered on the streets, this time Hama, it's becoming a common piece of debris:

It's a russian made OFAB 250-270 or OFAB 500U, essentially an unguided 265/550kg iron bomb. Dropped from a helicopter in this way they are very inaccurate. Videos of shredded civilians are starting to pile up on YouTube.

@Batto - US developing new types of nuclear weapon and it's not secret - could we have a link please? I'm surprised the Russian Govmnt aren't complaining about it at the UN as the US has signed several agreements not to do so and has publicly stated it would not?

Edited July 31, 2012 by PELHAM

[spooky lynx 73]

It's a russian made OFAB 250-270, essentially an unguided 265kg iron bomb. Dropped from a helicopter in this way they are very inaccurate.

These bombs may hit a single tank or cave enter when dropped from Mi-24, proved by Soviet pilots in Afghanistan many times.

[PELHAM 10]

The hinds have been dropping bombs on towns and cites for a few months now spooky - can I ask where these hundreds of FSA tanks came from? I know they have captured a dozen or so, mostly in the north. Any FSA armour could be disabled very effectively with minimum civilian deaths by anti-tank missiles fired from Mi-24s. Sorry but that rather flimsy excuse doesn't add up. They are dropping 500lb and 1000lb bombs in cities now because they want everyone in those areas dead.

[spooky lynx 73]

The hinds have been dropping bombs on towns and cites for a few months now spooky - can I ask where these hundreds of FSA tanks came from? I know they have captured a dozen or so, mostly in the north. Any FSA armour could be disabled very effectively with minimum civilian deaths by anti-tank missiles fired from Mi-24s. Sorry but that rather flimsy excuse doesn't add up. They are dropping 500lb and 1000lb bombs in cities now because they want everyone in those areas dead.

Quote my words about anti-tank as the only way of using that bombs from Hinds. This bombs can hit artillery positions, houses occupied by FSA guys, known weapon caches, IED plants etc. Why Syrian soldiers should risk their lives and leave the house held by rebels untouched (and take heavier casualties while cleaning it from rebels) when they may call for air support and smash it with bomb like ISAF guys do pretty often with houses held by Taliban guys?

Anti-tank missiles you say? Sorry but evil bloody Assad regime has only old Mi-24D with outdated and hard-to-use ATGMs. Evil Russkies hadn't supplied Assad with more effective and modern toys to opress those freedom fighters:(

Dropping bombs because of willing to kill as many civilians as possible? With tons of videos depicting that bloody crime of bloody regime flooding the web in a minute and, as a result, more tries to put harsh sanctions or even start military intervention of EU&US? If it is so then Assad must be real hardcore BDSM fan... Doing just the same as your enemies want you to do is the most dumb thing a person can do.