Syria - What should we do if anything?

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Which bases? Germany? UK forces are in the process of leaving and US forces are reducing their presence. Turkey may veto use of its bases. More fighting means more refugees coming into the country.

Iraq, Israel. Enough?

WW2 was not a little war! It was "total war", mobilisation of industry, a massive military build-up and intense fighting all over the world for years. Plus, the economic crash was already subsiding by the time it started.

Bullshit on the economic recovery being in place prior to the start of WW II: said total mobilisation of industry, grandiose infrastructure projects and elimination of excess unemployed people during the war are the reasons, which had been the success story of post Depression era.

Support is hard to quantify. Iraq became deeply unpopular, OEF is different as it was the result of attacks on American soil while Iraq was not and was thus more controversial. Support for Libya was never clear here and probably not in the US either.

Who needs ignorant public support? Assemble a multi-national NATO fleet with U.S. majority presence and delegate all operations command to NATO HQ.

5zNwOeyuG84

Such a bore.

[-Snafu- 77]

Iraq, Israel. Enough?

Neither of which are part of NATO.

Bullshit on the economic recovery being in place prior to the start of WW II: said total mobilisation of industry, grandiose infrastructure projects and elimination of excess unemployed people during the war are the reasons, which had been the success story of post Depression era.

Not "bullshit", German rearmament began in 1933 with Britain, France and the USA following suit in the mid-1930s and increased as the decade progressed. This is irrelevant to this thread, an armed intervention in Syria will not be like WW2.

Who needs ignorant public support? Assemble a multi-national NATO fleet with U.S. majority presence and delegate all operations command to NATO HQ.

When I say "unilateral" I mean through NATO and it will take more than just a NATO command. A lot of emphasis was placed on British and French aircraft in enforcing the no fly zone over Libya but with the economic crisis worse than it was a year ago, especially with the Euro zone, it's unlikely the French or British will back it. Fixing the ever growing economic crisis takes priority. The Syrian situation is also more complex than that of Libya as well as being further away from Europe.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Neither of which are part of NATO.

Doesn't matter. The massive permanent F.O.B. in Iraq is more than enough to deploy ground troops, which won't be used in the operations in Syria and Iran as you want to assume.

Not "bullshit", German rearmament began in 1933 with Britain, France and the USA following suit in the mid-1930s and increased as the decade progressed. This is irrelevant to this thread, an armed intervention in Syria will not be like WW2.

Dates of rearmament are irrelevant, you implied the world had been out of the Depression by the start of WW2, which is not the case.

Refresh your memory, as it is relevant to Syria due to Russian presence, which could spark a far bigger conflict in the region.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-germans-have-learned-nothing-from-history-a-838429.html

Astonishingly few Europeans (including bankers) seem to remember what happened in May 1931 when Creditanstalt, the biggest Austrian bank, had to be bailed out by a government that was itself on the brink of insolvency. The ensuing European bank crisis, which saw the failure of two of Germany's biggest banks, ushered in the second half of the Great Depression. If the first half had been dominated by the American stock market crash, the second was all about European banks going bust.

What happened next? The banking crisis was followed by President Hoover's one-year moratorium on payment of World War I war debts and reparations. Nearly all sovereign borrowers subsequently defaulted on all or part of their external debts, beginning with Germany. Unemployment in Europe reached an agonizing peak in 1932: In July of that year, 49 per cent of German trade union members were out of work.

The political consequences are well known. But the Nazis were only the worst of a large number of extremist movements to benefit politically from the crisis. "Anti-system" parties in Germany -- including Communists as well as fascists -- had won 13 percent of votes in 1928. By November 1932, they won nearly 60 percent. The far right also fared well in Austria, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Romania. Communists gained in Bulgaria, France and Greece.

Deja vu.

When I say "unilateral" I mean through NATO and it will take more than just a NATO command. A lot of emphasis was placed on British and French aircraft in enforcing the no fly zone over Libya but with the economic crisis worse than it was a year ago, especially with the Euro zone, it's unlikely the French or British will back it. Fixing the ever growing economic crisis takes priority. The Syrian situation is also more complex than that of Libya as well as being further away from Europe.

It is complex and we're resolving it, so far with Rebels and SF/Delta Force on the ground; carriers and air strikes come later, parallel to movements in Iran.

France: no-fly zone a consideration in Syria

http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2012/06/14/france-no-fly-zone-a-consideration-in-syria

France will propose giving the UN the power to enforce Kofi Annan's Syrian peace plan, Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius said yesterday, adding that a no-fly zone was an option under consideration to stem what was now a civil war.

His comments were the toughest yet from a major power in response to the relentless violence in Syria, where many hundreds of civilians, rebels and government forces have been killed since an April 12 ceasefire was supposed to open up a chance for talks to resolve the crisis.

Fabius said he hoped Russia, which, with China, has shielded President Bashar al-Assad from international action over his bloody crackdown on a 15-month-old uprising, would agree to the UN invoking Chapter 7, which can authorise the use of force.

Alternative: http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFBRE84S0P320120613

Edited June 14, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[vilas 473]

Still clinging to your communist ways, eh, Vilas? Those multi-national corporations is what giving the whole globe employment, without them you'd be growing potatoes in some rural shack.

What is being done in Syria is U.S. enforcing Freedom of the Seas concept, which also applies to Iran, meaning: You don't fuck with our commerce lines. If the market priced oil at $85 a barrel and Iran won't sell it to international markets due to their religious convictions, extremism, superstitions, or tariffs, then U.S. Navy will be seen in the vicinity of the Persian Gulf very soon.

not at all

wihthout multinational corporation we had:

- industry, car industry, shipbuilding industry, railway industry, arms industry, even Mi-2 production worldwide sells,

we were not growing potatos, but with corporations following situations happens:

- deparements of corporations transfer profits from country X to base country, thus - country X has no tax profits, base corporation country has tax incomes, so one country has costs, other country has incomes,

- corporations makes structural unemployment by moving production to cheaper and cheaper places, thus people who had growth, suddenly become poor, cause corporation decided to move production,

- due to corporations governments are corrupted and do not care about nation interest but business interest of people abroad, in most cases US (thats why you see profits, while other people in other countries see costs, cause corporations transfer money and in other countries they do not pay taxes)

- you say about barrel price ? why the hell people who produce something cannot dictate price ? is in not "capitalism" that i produce something and i decide for which price i want to sell it ? selling under barrel of a gun is not "free market" , only bandits force others to give something by force, so it's up to those countries for which money they want sell , it is real freedom, not "McFreedom" which US forces "offer" to the world

cause globalisation makes situations like now we have - crisis,

due to some banksters (which made milions, bilions) people loose houses, people loose jobs, people loose life, people loose insurance, people have debts and problems, which they would not have if some big banks not made this crisis

and some countries like Syria want to stay away from "world" which is today, world of global banks which can cause problems to milions of people across the globe, cause some rich guys from US want 400 000 000 USD wage (bank's presidents, banks' directors etc.)

another thing about bloodbath in Syria is that, when there is bloodbath in other countries, noone see it, pure hipocrisy, when in Iran someone is beheaded than whole TV stations say about it, but when in other Arab country 20times more people are beheaded noone speaks about it,

before corporations, international banks entered to some countries, believe me , we were not growing potatoes, we were making Mi2, cars, engines, ships, etc. now we are growing potatoes cause ship factories were liquidated, railway engines factories were liquidated,

but corporations want to control globe, to suck globe from profits and transfer it to one country, which see only welfare , while others see povery and problems (example: a lot of corporations do not care about enviroment in mining industry, they transfer profit to one country, other country has problem with environment)

crisis which is in the world (maybe only not in US) is caused by bank-corporations, maybe US has economical growth, cause we have 10% less salary and 10% more prices on some things and we are becoming more and more poor,

profits are in US, but not outside, and globe is 7 bilions of people, not 300 milions , which is 5% of globe in US, rest is 95% and it has problems , cause when corporations control market, make it olygopoly, make problems to some areas cause olygopoly is not free-equal business market,

so instead of invading Syria, better to do order with bank owners, they made much more suffering in globe than Syrian leaders , when someone would put together stats about suicides because of economical reasons due to crisis and Syria body count, i bet it would be surprising for you ,

if Syria cannot deal with rebels, than why other countries can police their (or which is much worse -others') citizens

looking at history of revolutions since some decades i doubt in many "freedom-movements", that they are "free" and in interest of people, many of such movements are caused to "change regime" (quote from Bush) by external intels (in most cases people are lied "how your life will be great after revolution" and after revolution they are more poor than before and loosing social rights only "freedom fighters" suddenly becoming economical "elite" and citizens have debts and more and more taxes)

look at crisis outside US, for example my salary was lower for 10% in 2011, and this year probably another 10% , so i have 20% less than in 2010, 2009, 2008 etc., it would not happen if big international banks not made crisis, Syria , Russia, Iran and some more countries do not want to be in western world, cause they see problems of western world, but US tries to force other to follow it's way :/

so "freedom movements" appear, but i wonder would you stand for such REAL freedom movement, if people in some countries would took guns and go against banks ? it would be REAL freedom movement, i wonder, if west press would than call for support if people in Greece, Spain, Poland , whatever other country would say "we won't pay no more taxes for banks, we won't pay for the rich" ?

yesterday 100 bilions of Euro decision was made, another EU money for banks, also from my tax money, from my small salary i would be forced to pay to guys who have milions every month in US central of bank or German central of bank etc. is it freedom that i must pay taxes to EU budget to support US or German or French banks ? i didn't had any credit so why i have to pay banks ?

this is way which Russia , Syria, Iran and some others simply do not want to follow and if US loves word "freedom" , US should respect that someone has right to be free of one way or other way ,

i have seen on YT movies showing false-blood, ketchup effects used by guerillas in Syria to act like killed in massacre, later they were standing smiling, washing ketchup, i have seen such movie on YT months ago

why west do not wanted to take intervention when milion Tootsie slaughtered milion of Hootu (or vice versa) in Rwanda (if i am correct), why they do not invaded Chile when Pinochet was abusing own citizens etc.

of course a lot of those "support freedom fighters" words in mainstream media are pure propaganda,

propaganda works for every system in history, simply people should be more criticizing and carefull and look from other side perspective too,

believeing in all which media say is suicidal, if i believed in what media are saying now i would have highways built, twice bigger salary, safety on street

do you know how propaganda works ?

simple example from police work:

- law maker (parliament, minister, whatever organ) makes law that "below 250 PLN theft we do not take report, we deny taking case because of low level of criminal act" suddenly ... in propaganda head of police says "we have 40% less crimes, so i am good police chief, he is good minister of internal affairs"

do criminals steel less ? nope, simply there is a law that policeman refuse to help if theft is below 250 PLN, but in propaganda "there is serious decrease of crime since last year, police is very effective, we live safer" (noone says "now they do not care if someone steal small ammount of money")

this is the way propaganda works, so probably the same way it works in Syria case, just like it was about Lybia, Lybian QaDaffi wanted to have his own bank system, wanted gold for oil instead of USD, so ... so he is dead , noone says about social profits which people had there (free-of charge social benefits given by the state which now they will have to pay)

mainstream press, media can lie as Goebells , cause mainstream media have owner, owner have interest and business to focus people on something, read more media , from both sides,

in my country i try to read at least few different medias, ultra-left-wing, ultra-right-wing, church-wing, Russian TV and than i try to build opinion , cause onesided media will always be biased

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Your Communistic stream of consciousness is off-topic here, vilas, but I will retort to your inverted morality,

YXDIkUxALlk

On-topic,

I remember thinking to myself last year as this revolution started, "Syria's regular army is full lock-stock-and-barrel full of T72s and BMP-1/2s, and this will be hell for the people of Syria for the next few years." Vid of gov't T72 with ERA armour and another in the background,

pdpldiL30Ys

Syrian Free Army have RPGs and limited stocks of METIS-M from gov't stockpiles, those won't last long; UN Resolution will be decided upon and enforced. You can find more current videos, including engagements, if you Google Militaryphotos forum and Syrian Uprising thread.

[-GR-Operative 10]

Its primary role is in doing what it currently does best and I support them in their cause.

I really hope you are not saying you support CIA for changing regimes in several countries during Cold War. If you really do, it's because you don't live in such countries.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Operative;2171902']I really hope you are not saying you support CIA for changing regimes in several countries during Cold War. If you really do' date=' it's because you don't live in such countries.[/quote']

During the Cold War they were countering Communistic schizophrenia, now, we're working towards a border-less Globe, where anyone can trade with everyone else without having to go through hoops and loops of prejudices, stereotypes, religious intolerance, religious superstitions, inane traditions and national sovereignty, which is obsolete, especially for such regimes as in Syria, Iran, N. Korea. I may add Greece, Spain and other to the list due to fiscal irresponsibility, as a consequence of that they will cede sovereignty to the European Union, which is morally & legally right, but that's another topic.

Russia played its cards well, when it decided to trade its raw resources at market price with us, who wants war?

Edited June 14, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[-Snafu- 77]

Doesn't matter. The massive permanent F.O.B. in Iraq is more than enough to deploy ground troops, which won't be used in the operations in Syria and Iran as you want to assume.

US combat operations ended in Iraq in 2010 and the last combat unit left in December 2011, less than 200 military personnel are present now working out of the embassy. The big US bases are gone so supplies and engineers would need to be moved back in to re-build for some time to allow a build-up of forces before anything could happen.

Dates of rearmament are irrelevant, you implied the world had been out of the Depression by the start of WW2, which is not the case.

The dates are not irrelevant and nor did I say the above.

Refresh your memory, as it is relevant to Syria due to Russian presence, which could spark a far bigger conflict in the region.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-germans-have-learned-nothing-from-history-a-838429.html

The global and economic systems of the 1920s and 1930s were radically different from what we have now so the situations are not directly comparable.

France: no-fly zone a consideration in Syria

http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2012/06/14/france-no-fly-zone-a-consideration-in-syria

Alternative: http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFBRE84S0P320120613

I never said intervention could not happen, just that it was far less likely given the different location and situation of Syria as well as the different priorities the US and European nations have.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Demagogy at its finest. /tiphat.

[vilas 473]

During the Cold War they were countering Communistic schizophrenia, now, we're working towards a border-less Globe, where anyone can trade with everyone else without having to go through hoops and loops of prejudices, stereotypes, religious intolerance, religious superstitions, inane traditions and national sovereignty, which is obsolete, especially for such regimes as in Syria, Iran, N. Korea. I may add Greece, Spain and other to the list due to fiscal irresponsibility, as a consequence of that they will cede sovereignty to the European Union, which is morally & legally right, but that's another topic.

many americans seems to not understand what is communism, but love to use this word

communism is lack of private industry and property, and all belongs to state (industry, cars, houses) so you do not understand difference between communism and economical-safety + free market competition without olygopoly, monopoly (corporations, world big banks)

---

wars are cause because olygopoly want to control other "markets" and call it "freedom" (when they will take away other nations bank system, make there own banks than "it is freedom")

---

tradition, religion, history , roots - most of people in globe worship it, not deny it like you, national soveregnity is basic thing, not something to fight with, but something to fight for , that each nation can decide what it wants, not borderless mix of anything made for few big US corporations

[nettrucker 142]

@ Sanfu

It was me that made the allegations of mainstream media brainwashing the people, not batto. I don't trust the mainstream media one single bit. They are distorting the truth . . . lying. I'm pissed of with those hypocrites. You are aware that the box (TV) is the most efficient tool to influence public opinion right? What I'm saying is . . . don't trust blindly in what they are portraying. Try to find some alternative news site . . . do extensive research.

fxq00xkMlgw&feature=relmfu

I've posted this video because I do respect Adam Kokesh.

Peace

[ProfTournesol 956]

I fail to see how "alternative websites" could be better (or less manipulated, or less subjective..) than "mainstream press". I've read so many BS on those sites than even the Sun could be considered as well informed.

[maturin 12]

Your Communistic stream of consciousness is off-topic here, vilas, but I will retort to your inverted morality,

*John Galt*

Hooray! Battle of the unconscious ridiculous political parodies!

And now an 'alternative truthteller with enormous muscles! This thread gets better and better.

[nettrucker 142]

It is up to yourself what to believe and how to evalute the accuracy of the information you are viewing. The only thing to do is doing extensive research . . . by doing this you can filter the crap from some valuable info, but in the end it is up to you what to believe and how you preceive the information. The global situation is very complex and the mainstream media is steering public opinion most people believe what they are told . . . I'm not one of them. TV is the most efficient propaganda tool ever invented.

I've stopped watching TV a long time ago. 90 % only crap. If you're on skype I'd like to discuss things further with you, because I can't explain in a few words my research results. naturally only if you want to.

peace bro.

I fail to see how "alternative websites" could be better (or less manipulated, or less subjective..)

You are right . . . but it helps me to get other point of views on certain situations which helps me to analyze and decide for myself what's most likely nearer to the truth.

And now an 'alternative truthteller with enormous muscles! This thread gets better and better.

@ maturin

this is adam Kokesh . . . he's an iraq war veteran and critical to the current wars. Do some research on him before judging him.

Edited June 16, 2012 by nettrucker
added response

[Matthewkunx 3]

Should NATO go to assist in whats going on in Syria? I am still wondering why they haven't sent anyone to stop the bloodshed...its crazy.

[Nicholas 5]

Should NATO go to assist in whats going on in Syria? I am still wondering why they haven't sent anyone to stop the bloodshed...its crazy.

I don't think Russia wants anyone to intervene.

Russia’s chief arms exporter said Friday that his company was shipping advanced defensive missile systems to Syria that could be used to shoot down airplanes or sink ships if the United States or other nations try to intervene to halt the country’s spiral of violence.

I would like to say these mechanisms are really a good means of defense, a reliable defense against attacks from the air or sea,†Anatoly P. Isaykin, the general director of the company, Rosoboronexport, said Friday in an interview. “This is not a threat, but whoever is planning an attack should think about this.

Russia Sending Missile Systems to Shield Syria

Why Russia is standing by Syria's Assad

Russia sends troops to Syria as peace hopes fade

Russia may send warships to Syria

[Matthewkunx 3]

Cause Russia has an interest with them?

[ProfTournesol 956]

Cause Russia has an interest with them?

Yes...

[-Snafu- 77]

@ Sanfu

It was me that made the allegations of mainstream media brainwashing the people, not batto. I don't trust the mainstream media one single bit. They are distorting the truth . . . lying. I'm pissed of with those hypocrites. You are aware that the box (TV) is the most efficient tool to influence public opinion right? What I'm saying is . . . don't trust blindly in what they are portraying. Try to find some alternative news site . . . do extensive research.

I've posted this video because I do respect Adam Kokesh.

Peace

The mainstream media do not brainwash but, at best, try to influence their audience. Loads of extensive research has been done and published in books, studies or articles which are sourced pieces of research done by researchers who examine, analyse and write. Things like these are done at research groups, universities, 'think tanks' and so on and their works are usually easy to get a hold of on the internet. One such place is the GMG and quite a few of their works are free to download. You'll find that no study agrees on how effective the media are at influencing people with some saying they are, or aren't or can be in circumstances or whatever conclusion it is they reach based on their own research and own ideas on how media, technology, government, editors, politicians, different audience groups, journalists etc. come together in society.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Snafu

[Nicholas 5]

Syrian Pilot Defects With Jet

A Royal Jordanian Air Force official said a MiG-21 belonging to the Syrian Arab Air Force entered Jordanian skies midmorning and was given permission to land at an air base close to the Syrian border.

"The plane's commander asked that he be granted the right of political asylum," said the official, who was cited by the kingdom's state-controlled news agency.

[nettrucker 142]

Should NATO go to assist in whats going on in Syria? I am still wondering why they haven't sent anyone to stop the bloodshed...its crazy.

In my opinion NATO should stay out of this. The continuous interfering and meddling in other countries businesses will have it's blowback.

[eble 3]

Syria shoot down Turkish F4 Fighter:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18554246

[ProfTournesol 956]

Syria shoot down Turkish F4 Fighter:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18554246

If it's confirmed, it's going to be interesting...

[Tonci87 163]

If it's confirmed, it's going to be interesting...

That could be the start of an Turkish intervention, if it is true. It wouldn´t be the first border accident

[[evo] dan 79]

Turkey could techincally go through with its threat to call NATO in (which its techincally allowed to do) if they go to war with Syria.