AI Improvement

[BinaryCode64 1]

Deleted

Edited March 10, 2013 by BinaryCode64

[-Coulum- 35]

Coordinated AI fire would be great. Now they are just separately going through the motions of shooting, having them pop up at roughly the same time and giving suppressive fire would be a nice detail to their ai. Should only work when there are 2 ai close to each other.

That would be okay I guess but the thing is the ai currently don't "pop up" at all. They just stand behind cover exposing themselves. Really, for the ai, being behind a low wall makes them just as hard to hit as going prone in the open. I would much prefer the ai to actually pop in and out of cover based on incoming fire. This way cover would offer them the same advantage it offers the human player (ability to make yourself impossible to hit by fully hiding). With the new animations I think this would work like a charm. Then ideas like yours can be implemented to further increase the ai's offensive capabilites. But adding it in right now would in my opinion be a waste.

[BinaryCode64 1]

Deleted

Edited March 10, 2013 by BinaryCode64

[-Coulum- 35]

We also might consider how far we want the ai to go? The further it develops and feels more like a real person the bigger the requirements. Their is a difference between improving and improving with backwards compatibility. If BI suddenly has 100x the amount of people working for them then its not unthinkable to have a extremely realistic beautiful gigantic game that will need 10 nasa computers to run.

yes unfortunately the ai must have limits. IMO what BI should aim for is fixing all the "stupid" things the ai do.

Right now, I am under the belief that BI doesn't need to make the ai tactical geniuses. What they need to do is simply eliminate all the dumb behaviours the ai exhibit. Crouching, going prone, getting up to run 2 metres, going prone, turning around, going prone again, turning around again and then finally sitting still is what I would call dumb. Taking cover behind a low wall and just standing there as bullets snap by and impact close instead of going prone to be in safety is dumb. Not being able to see an enemy only 200 metres away walking through totally open desert terrain is dumb. automatic riflemen mowing down there own squad mates is dumb. standing in the middle of the open during a firefight is dumb. trying to rush an enemy that clearly has fire superiority over you is dumb. Not being able to fire out of houses is dumb. Not running from a superior force is Dumb. Did I miss any? It is not neccesary to make the ai super geniuses. It is neccesary to eliminate all their stupid habits. This way, even though we won't have an ai that will outsmart us, we at least have an ai that is competent at fighting and we have to work to beat. Just my opinion.

I think these kind of fixes/improvements would be possible without requiring massive computers. then if people want to improve the tactical side of the ai they can through addons like HAC does in arma 2 or script them into their missions. the ai will never be smart like a human but I believe it is possible to make them competent at fighting and increasing survivability on the individual level.

[^Th0mas^ 10]

Any word if BIS are going to give us a AI demo at E3 at all? By the looks of the preview its just the new features they want to show us, not the AI.

[BinaryCode64 1]

Deleted

Edited March 10, 2013 by BinaryCode64

[^Th0mas^ 10]

If they dont script everything.

[metalcraze 290]

Last time BIS tried to script AI in their engine we got PMC campaign.

[-Coulum- 35]

Yep no "AI showcase". hopefully the campaign mission will clearly show off some ai improvements. Right now I am really interested to know

Can the ai now navigate through buildings effectively

How effectively can the ai use the new stances

Is the ai able to determine when they must hold and return fire, advance, or retreat

and of course some driving

I think we will probably have to wait until the alpha to truly find out the extent of ai improvement. Of course a devblog on it would be very nice too.

[bospor 0]

One thing that drives me insane is the tank MG gunners! Forget snipers or special forces dudes, these are the ultimate marksmen in the game. They kill from ANY distance with lighting fast reaction! I think BIS tried to compensate lack of bullet penetration through walls and other hard surfaces, by simply cheating with these uber-MG's that can kill like laser cannons the moment you stick your head out. Hopefully people at BIS have enough money now to hire more programmers who can actually design penetrable walls and give us realistic tanks and their gunners.

[froggyluv 2130]

I know its been brought up before but we seriously need an overide "Run!"/"Retreat on me! (or direction)"/"Now Muthaf***as!!" for the AI subordinates. Playing IF campaign and there are multiple times you encounter armor with just riflemen at your disposal and it's next to impossible to just get your men to go run towards that treeline at all costs. Doesn't matter what mode you put them in right now - they ain't movin with urgency that they need to survive. Perhaps only allow quick 'hip shots' for imminent and realistic targets ie.. enemy infantry < 50m with all else taking a secondary to the AI sprint for survival.

[-Coulum- 35]

I know its been brought up before but we seriously need an overide "Run!"/"Retreat on me! (or direction)"/"Now Muthaf***as!!" for the AI subordinates. Playing IF campaign and there are multiple times you encounter armor with just riflemen at your disposal and it's next to impossible to just get your men to go run towards that treeline at all costs. Doesn't matter what mode you put them in right now - they ain't movin with urgency that they need to survive. Perhaps only allow quick 'hip shots' for imminent and realistic targets ie.. enemy infantry < 50m with all else taking a secondary to the AI sprint for survival.

Yes that would be very useful. It should be possilbe to tell your ai how fast you want something done. If you tell 2, 3, 5 to run to cover you should then be able to select a "at all costs behaviour" or something, that forces them to sprint to their destination paying now attention to those around them. Of course this should also be possible to use in the editor, and hopefully the ai leaders should also be able to dtect odds they cannot defeat and use this to run away.

One thing that drives me insane is the tank MG gunners! Forget snipers or special forces dudes, these are the ultimate marksmen in the game. They kill from ANY distance with lighting fast reaction! I think BIS tried to compensate lack of bullet penetration through walls and other hard surfaces, by simply cheating with these uber-MG's that can kill like laser cannons the moment you stick your head out. Hopefully people at BIS have enough money now to hire more programmers who can actually design penetrable walls and give us realistic tanks and their gunners.

Yeah I think this is due to the fact that mounted weapons are so stable and have zero recoil. It does often ruin firefights, but the player has just as easy a time when using mounted weapons so it isn't really fair to complain. make the player suffer some recoil and sway and then I think it would be reasonable to make the ai less accurate at shooting these weapons. and there already is material penetration in arma 2, its just isn't as pretty as other games. Ie. you shoot a fence and the bullet goes through, but there is now exit hole or hole in the ground where the bullet finally did land. There definitely is material penetration though, and ricochets as well.

[maturin 12]

I know its been brought up before but we seriously need an overide "Run!"/"Retreat on me! (or direction)"/"Now Muthaf***as!!" for the AI subordinates. Playing IF campaign and there are multiple times you encounter armor with just riflemen at your disposal and it's next to impossible to just get your men to go run towards that treeline at all costs. Doesn't matter what mode you put them in right now - they ain't movin with urgency that they need to survive. Perhaps only allow quick 'hip shots' for imminent and realistic targets ie.. enemy infantry < 50m with all else taking a secondary to the AI sprint for survival.

Put them in Arrow or Column formation and they will move as fast as is physically possible.

The only problem with this is that this method is a sort of secret that has to be discovered by experienced players, and doesn't make sense on the surface.

[spamurai 3]

In the end, it's about atmosphere.

The most beneficial reason to develop the AI is their positive effect on enhancing Atmosphere. If there is one thing the ArmAverse does better then anything available in other games... is it's ability to create uncanny atmosphere. It's that intangible thing that can not be shown in a screenshot, or explained on a forum... it has to be felt in an in-game ArmA experience. The ArmA-AI is a big part of that.

To that end, the bottom line is this for me.... is the AI helping to create positive atmosphere for my ArmA Experience or is the AI destroying it?

There are many idiosyncrasies built into the AI that attempt to simulate, in vain, a Human analogue that ultimately just end up showcasing how limited they are at being human. AI exists as supporting actors that are supposed to help the Human player be the star role in their own personal war stories. Complicating the AI's ability to perform that role with too many nuances only succeeds in exaggerating how artificial they are.

There are things I wish AI Actors would role-play better at.

Landing Insertion of Helicopter borne troops.

Driving a Tank so they do not a appear drunk.

Vaulting over low fences as a player can.

Dismount Transports less like school children disembarking the big yellow bus.

[Tonci87 163]

I know its been brought up before but we seriously need an overide "Run!"/"Retreat on me! (or direction)"/"Now Muthaf***as!!" for the AI subordinates. Playing IF campaign and there are multiple times you encounter armor with just riflemen at your disposal and it's next to impossible to just get your men to go run towards that treeline at all costs. Doesn't matter what mode you put them in right now - they ain't movin with urgency that they need to survive. Perhaps only allow quick 'hip shots' for imminent and realistic targets ie.. enemy infantry < 50m with all else taking a secondary to the AI sprint for survival.

That would be very usefull!

Yes that would be very useful. It should be possilbe to tell your ai how fast you want something done. If you tell 2, 3, 5 to run to cover you should then be able to select a "at all costs behaviour" or something, that forces them to sprint to their destination paying now attention to those around them. Of course this should also be possible to use in the editor, and hopefully the ai leaders should also be able to dtect odds they cannot defeat and use this to run away.

Yeah I think this is due to the fact that mounted weapons are so stable and have zero recoil. It does often ruin firefights, but the player has just as easy a time when using mounted weapons so it isn't really fair to complain. make the player suffer some recoil and sway and then I think it would be reasonable to make the ai less accurate at shooting these weapons. and there already is material penetration in arma 2, its just isn't as pretty as other games. Ie. you shoot a fence and the bullet goes through, but there is now exit hole or hole in the ground where the bullet finally did land. There definitely is material penetration though, and ricochets as well.

The Problem with static Weapons isn´t their recoil, but that they are impossible to surpress. You can surpress standard AI soldiers, they will fire less shoots and less accurate, but this is not applied for static weapons.

[froggyluv 2130]

Put them in Arrow or Column formation and they will move as fast as is physically possible.

The only problem with this is that this method is a sort of secret that has to be discovered by experienced players, and doesn't make sense on the surface.

Haven't been able to successfully recreate this. Do have them under Hold Fire/Careless (At Ease)? Generally they'll start to move then drop take a knee/scan for threats - a normal behaviour except when running for your life is on the line ie. Armor,Artillery etc...

[maturin 12]

I just tell them to return to formation and book it.

[-Coulum- 35]

The Problem with static Weapons isn´t their recoil, but that they are impossible to surpress. You can surpress standard AI soldiers, they will fire less shoots and less accurate, but this is not applied for static weapons.

Good point. The fact that you can’t suppress mounted weapons or mg bunkers makes them far too good. Basically the only way to really make them ineffective is to snipe em which in reality isn’t always how you are supposed to handle these things. But as well I think the ai’s behaviour with the mounted weapons Is somewhat off. In all the combat videos I have seen with a .50 cal on a HMMV the gunner isn’t trying to be accurate with the gun. Instead he is spraying the general are in which the enemy is trying to suppress as many enemy as possible. The ai don’t do this. They target a single unit and fire aimed shots at him.

On the topic of suppression, you say its possible to suppress normal ai – I know it is possible but does anyone else think it is far too hard. I find it is easier to just shoot an ai rather than suppress him, which in my opinion doesn't reflect reality. Often soldiers will cringe at the mere sound of machinegun fire, let alone a bullet snapping by or impacting nearby, even it’s a couple metres away. The “suppression radius†is far too small and bullets that snap by need to also effect suppression IMO.

[maturin 12]

Another huge problem with static weapons is that they don't take splash damage. 155mm artillery can land a few meters away and the exposed gunner won't be harmed by frag. You have to hit close enough to physically destroy the weapon itself.

Coulum: The AI prefers not to move to positions that are taking fire, so there is an indirect way to suppress AI movement.

[captmoose344 29]

Something which has been lacking from the Arma Series is an Active Command Structure for the Enemy AI.

In other words, When in the editor you need endless Scripts and Waypoint and triggers to make enemy units respond to the battlefield. Excelent for creating missions that will only be played 4 or 5 different ways for victory. What is needed is an Active Enemy AI Command or General who talks to the captain in charge of a region. This would be an AI who is connected to all Enemy AI Units, This character would only react to enemy assults unless he was directed in the editor to take on OBJ.

Its a management Idea really so that the enemy become Dynamic on the field of battle. The Command Unit needs to not Micro manage the units but be capable of saying, Attack here, pull back here, travel to this area and engage the enemy.

This would raise the bar a little by putting the human player into situations where time is of the essance. Taking down a safe house is one thing when all you need to do is sit still and shoot the enemy units until there are no more. But having that impending doom feeling knowing that vehicles and enemy units from surrounding towns may be on the way will elevate this.

If the Command structure was to be attacked then a breakdown in the ground forces would occur and so on creating that dynamic atmosphere.

What ya think?

[gammadust 12]

You should try HETMAN, still wip but doing a lot of that. Not that i wouldn't welcome a vanilla solution in that regard.

[-Coulum- 35]

Yes Hetman is very good. Not only does it make the ai more reactive, but it also makes for a totally dynamic mission that will never play the same twice... and all with very little work. Just shows how much can be done with modding.

But it doesn't fix the flaws of the ai on the individual level, which is why I really hope that BIS fixes these for a3. As far as I know it is very hard/impossible to fix the "micro ai", at least not in an efficient manner. So hopefully BI fixes these things. Higher command and chain of command would be great but Like Hetman shows, these can be modded in. Micro ai not so much. One thing I really hope for is the ai being able to use the new stances effectively...

Coulum: The AI prefers not to move to positions that are taking fire, so there is an indirect way to suppress AI movement.

Never knew that. But it still doesn't really pin the ai down. Sure it might prevent them from moving to a certain position, but it doesn't prevent them from moving. And it doesn't decrease the accuracy or of rate their fire. Ai will still continue their advance if they are taking casualties, let alone suppressive fire. IMO suppression is something very lacking in a2 ai and it as a supposedly "realistic" game it really hurts.

[maturin 12]

Suppression is properly modeled, minus the lack of AI getting pinned and hearing sonic snaps. In PvP, for example, it'll work just fine.

The reason we don't suppress much is because the AI we're suppressing are in the open, aiming back at us. In real life, they would be entirely or almost entirely hidden behind cover, and suppressing that covered position more generally would do the job. It's an issue with the AI not being as good at navigating a 3D environment as humans are, and the devs have to get the suppression feature to compensate for that.

[-Coulum- 35]

Suppression is properly modeled, minus the lack of AI getting pinned and hearing sonic snaps. In PvP, for example, it'll work just fine.

Yeah suppression for players is fine as is, I'm talking about for the ai alone. Basically the problem is as you say. The ai doesn't use cover so it is hard to suppress the cover that they are in (because they are in none) But its not only a matter of the ai not being able to find the cover. It is also the fact that the ai often leaves cover once they have gotten there, and doesn't seem to understand when they are under fire (and should stay put rather than move). Further more, when the ai do happen to find their way to cover they don't actually use it. They simply stand behind it partially covering themselves. Even when rounds snap by them they continue to just sit there and return fire. In reality a solder would duck down behind the cover when rounds start snapping by. simply standing behind it decreases there chances of being hit basically as much as going prone in the open. Actively ducking in and out of cover would extend their lives tremendously. And it would create the decreased rate of return fire in a realistic way rather then the abstract decrease we have now. And with the new stances it would also look really awesome and immersive. I hope they use em to do this kind of thing for the ai.

[maturin 12]

The cover issue is the real root of so many other AI issues. And the cover runs up against some thorny limitations.

In a 3D world without path nodes and defined positions around each object, the AI can't project himself forward in time and space to understand how good cover will be. They know only to adhere to objects, and on a good day, to put said object between himself and one or more enemies, with some leaning and lowered stance. It's very costly to draw line of sight rays between two units, much less constant checks between multiple units and their feet and hands and head and a whole battlefield of possible cover objects. So they know that they are in cover, but not whether they are actually sheltered from enemy fire, and they know where cover is, but not whether it will be any use.

Or so I understand from Suma's posts pre-1.60.

There's a lot of workarounds that need to be devised, and a lot of tweaks too. Like making the AI stay in cover that they have for more than a split second. Staying in formation ruins survivability, but survivability ruins mobility and responsiveness to orders. It's a cath-22 there.

Edited June 4, 2012 by maturin