AI Improvement

[rye1 21]

AI definitely uses bushes for concealment

Maybe they should have an object line differentiating cover and concealment. Then we might see better actions, for instance if in contact while in concealment, get a good view on the enemy and put a heavy rate of fire down. In cover you are more like a turtle, less fire power and more defensive.

[Tonci87 163]

I think the problem is that the AI knows only two modes. Enemy spotted or not spotted. If they see you they will track you and they will instantly know your new position if you change it. An example: You are spotted and you change your position, you do this in a clever and unpredictable fashion, a human enemy would have problems guessing where you are, the AI will instantly know it as soon as you are in their FOV. IMHO the AI needs an additional "he´s somewhere over there" mode that makes them surpress the area where they think you are.

[instagoat 133]

I think the problem is that the AI knows only two modes. Enemy spotted or not spotted. If they see you they will track you and they will instantly know your new position if you change it. An example: You are spotted and you change your position, you do this in a clever and unpredictable fashion, a human enemy would have problems guessing where you are, the AI will instantly know it as soon as you are in their FOV. IMHO the AI needs an additional "he´s somewhere over there" mode that makes them surpress the area where they think you are.

They kind of already do this. This is especially obvious at the edge of their detection range: they extrapolate their targets position based on the last movement, after they moved out of sight (for example, moved behind cover). They don´t anticipate change in direction of movement, however, and as soon as you reappear, they instantly see you again: they never "guess wrong", so to speak. They have perfect eyesight once they´re aware of you.

Making the AI more human is a difficult feat to do. I hope BI will show some improvements at E3: so far we´ve barely seen anything but promises.

[rye1 21]

If we didn't have that games would be so different. You'd be able to bait and ambush, track them or be tracked yourself. Weirdly cool.

Yes, BIS have hardly showed us the AI... E3 will be interesting.

I hate all the 'stop and go', 'stop and go', 'quick 180 or 360 spin'. Face the threat area, move on it properly.

Even with mods it's dodgey!

Edited May 27, 2012 by Rye

[maturin 12]

I think the problem is that the AI knows only two modes. Enemy spotted or not spotted. If they see you they will track you and they will instantly know your new position if you change it. An example: You are spotted and you change your position, you do this in a clever and unpredictable fashion, a human enemy would have problems guessing where you are, the AI will instantly know it as soon as you are in their FOV. IMHO the AI needs an additional "he´s somewhere over there" mode that makes them surpress the area where they think you are.

They have a 'somewhere over there' mode but it only works in low light conditions, very long ranges or when you are completely concealed.

And they don't always instantly spot you when you enter their FOV (when alerted), but this is because they can get tunnel vision on a bad guess and it's a problem in itself.

[metalcraze 290]

I think the problem is that the AI knows only two modes. Enemy spotted or not spotted. If they see you they will track you and they will instantly know your new position if you change it. An example: You are spotted and you change your position, you do this in a clever and unpredictable fashion, a human enemy would have problems guessing where you are, the AI will instantly know it as soon as you are in their FOV.

I instantly know when enemy is in my FOV.

I mean it isn't hard to guess which side of the bush 200m away you will roll out from.

[maturin 12]

I instantly know when enemy is in my FOV.

Lol, know you don't. Your FOV can cover thousands of square meter of scrub, wrecks, corpses and windblown trees. People's eyes miss prone enemies all the time.

I mean it isn't hard to guess which side of the bush 200m away you will roll out from.

Well that's totally different, so yes.

[metalcraze 290]

Lol, know you don't. Your FOV can cover thousands of square meter of scrub, wrecks, corpses and windblown trees. People's eyes miss prone enemies all the time.

So does AI in ArmA. But if you noticed in that quote the example is "I hid behind some object but AI notices me when I come from behind it if it's in his FOV"

Even if there's a house 100m away and it's in your FOV and you see an enemy running behind it - you will spot him instantly to the either side of the house - unless maybe crawling or leaning - but AI will have problems with such condition too.

If people really want to see how AI in ArmA would be if superhuman awareness and superhuman precision myths were true - install first Ghost Recon.

Edited May 27, 2012 by metalcraze

[danny96 79]

If we didn't have that games would be so different. You'd be able to bait and ambush, track them or be tracked yourself. Weirdly cool.

Yes, BIS have hardly showed us the AI... E3 will be interesting.

I hate all the 'stop and go', 'stop and go', 'quick 180 or 360 spin'. Face the threat area, move on it properly.

Even with mods it's dodgey!

I think they are currently working on graphics and animations. The AI will be still from A2 I think

[-Coulum- 35]

Right now, I am under the belief that BI doesn't need to make the ai tactical geniuses. What they need to do is simply eliminate all the dumb behaviours the ai exhibit. Crouching, going prone, getting up to run 2 metres, going prone, turning around, going prone again, turning around again and then finally sitting still is what I would call dumb. Taking cover behind a low wall and just standing there as bullets snap by and impact close instead of going prone to be in safety is dumb. Not being able to see an enemy only 200 metres away walking through totally open desert terrain is dumb. automatic riflemen mowing down there own squad mates is dumb. standing in the middle of the open during a firefight is dumb. trying to rush an enemy that clearly has fire superiority over you is dumb. Not being able to fire out of houses is dumb. Not running from a superior force is Dumb. Did I miss any? It is not neccesary to make the ai super geniuses. It is neccesary to eliminate all their stupid habits. This way, even though we won't have an ai that will outsmart us, we at least have an ai that is competent at fighting and we have to work to beat. Just my opinion.

I think they are currently working on graphics and animations. The AI will be still from A2 I think

That would be how it appears, but I doubt they would just ignore ai. I am hoping that we will learn something at E3. So far we have seen lots of great stuff but we really haven't seen any gameplay. That's what I look forward to at E3.

[mr.g-c 6]

Right now, I am under the belief that BI doesn't need to make the ai tactical geniuses. What they need to do is simply eliminate all the dumb behaviours the ai exhibit. Crouching, going prone, getting up to run 2 metres, going prone, turning around, going prone again, turning around again and then finally sitting still is what I would call dumb. Taking cover behind a low wall and just standing there as bullets snap by and impact close instead of going prone to be in safety is dumb. Not being able to see an enemy only 200 metres away walking through totally open desert terrain is dumb. automatic riflemen mowing down there own squad mates is dumb. standing in the middle of the open during a firefight is dumb. trying to rush an enemy that clearly has fire superiority over you is dumb. Not being able to fire out of houses is dumb. Not running from a superior force is Dumb. Did I miss any? It is not neccesary to make the ai super geniuses. It is neccesary to eliminate all their stupid habits. This way, even though we won't have an ai that will outsmart us, we at least have an ai that is competent at fighting and we have to work to beat. Just my opinion.

That would be how it appears, but I doubt they would just ignore ai. I am hoping that we will learn something at E3. So far we have seen lots of great stuff but we really haven't seen any gameplay. That's what I look forward to at E3.

EXACTLY THIS! This is what need to be fixed at least... Every other "improvement" in the AI Field is pointless if the ArmA3 AI is continuing to act so weird like perfectly described here by -Coulum-.

[rye1 21]

Yeah Coulum, spot on. For a dynamic game-mode I believe this is perfect but not linear, they have to react in a certain way - I wonder how you could do this easily (using mission editor options and not jumping straight to scripting).

Fully agreed about the use of cover: Cover from fire, cover from view! The difference between cover and concealment. Can I survive and can I do my job? HIDING is not using cover. Using cover is being able to employ yourself while maintaining an element of security and being able to fight: Getting rounds on the target, observing the target, pulling in when you need to use it.

You've mentioned a lot of points that just make you facepalm, bringing up memories of seriously clumbsy AI.

[Jaypaul97 1]

Something I'd really like to see:

We had the option to put in "Spec Ops" enemies into our game, but honestly fighting Spetsnaz felt no different than any regular OPFOR soldier. I'd really like to see the Spetsnaz really feel like Spetsnaz. I should feel terrified like "Oh shit, these guys mean business" not just "Oh look at that cool bandana"

[krycek 349]

Something I'd really like to see:

We had the option to put in "Spec Ops" enemies into our game, but honestly fighting Spetsnaz felt no different than any regular OPFOR soldier. I'd really like to see the Spetsnaz really feel like Spetsnaz. I should feel terrified like "Oh shit, these guys mean business" not just "Oh look at that cool bandana"

You can emulate that by playing with the skill levels,at lower skill levels they'll brake formation more often,have lower morale and bad aiming skill.If you have some special forces in your mission you could max out the skill level and it will be more challenging and harder to take them out.

[rye1 21]

Something I'd really like to see:

We had the option to put in "Spec Ops" enemies into our game, but honestly fighting Spetsnaz felt no different than any regular OPFOR soldier. I'd really like to see the Spetsnaz really feel like Spetsnaz. I should feel terrified like "Oh shit, these guys mean business" not just "Oh look at that cool bandana"

Far out. Hit the point.

What should they be like? I mean a completely different style? More aggressive in approach? More tactical options available?

Hatchet throwing. ;)

[Tonci87 163]

Far out. Hit the point.

What should they be like? I mean a completely different style? More aggressive in approach? More tactical options available?

Hatchet throwing. ;)

I imagine higher morale, better aimingtogether with some special tactics and gear would do the trick.

[maturin 12]

Not going to happen. They already have higher skill, etc.

Anything special they devised would need to be applied to all AI to make them approach human intelligence.

[-Coulum- 35]

Something I'd really like to see:

We had the option to put in "Spec Ops" enemies into our game, but honestly fighting Spetsnaz felt no different than any regular OPFOR soldier. I'd really like to see the Spetsnaz really feel like Spetsnaz. I should feel terrified like "Oh shit, these guys mean business" not just "Oh look at that cool bandana"

not sure exactly what you want different. If you mean skills such as spotting or shooting ability, I agree, and this is possible via mods (although I think BIS should do it by default). If you mean new tactics and techniques... well I would rather BI make the normal ai competent at fighting before they make "special ai". Don't get me wrong I would appreciate new tactics for different units but Like mr.g-c said, these new ai tactics and techniques will be totally useless if the ai does know how to fight properly on the individual level, without frequently acting "stupid". BI needs to perfect the basics before they can move on to more advanced stuff and arma 2's current ai is far from perfected. My opinion anyways.

[metalcraze 290]

OK I realize this is slightly off-topic - but seeing how ArmA2 and ArmA3 developments are so closely interconnected this bug may be present there as well.

This is about an issue with AI AT gunners trying to get themselves killed by running at armored target instead of shooting it. Essentially this means that in most cases only player is effective against armored targets.

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/32115

Please vote.

[Jaypaul97 1]

I already always max the enemy skill...like another poster said it seems all that does is make them more accurate at shooting, not smarter.

And yes, at the very least, at least add some hatchet throwing! If you won't fix AI supplement it with that.

[rye1 21]

I imagine higher morale, better aimingtogether with some special tactics and gear would do the trick.

Morale?

I liked the "together" point - shooting as a group, looking out for each other. Those buddy and team drills would be really great to see.

[metalcraze 290]

I already always max the enemy skill...like another poster said it seems all that does is make them more accurate at shooting, not smarter.

It does make them "smarter"

Set yourself as a neutral observer, set lowest skill OPFOR vs. highest skill BLUFOR

You will notice that in combat OPFOR seems to run around more randomly, have much lower reaction times, and of course lower precision, they may even retreat if a lot of them will get killed. BLUFOR on the other hand will keep tighter formation, react much quicker to spotting an enemy and of course kill it more effectively.

Sure skill level doesn't make them tactical geniuses but the difference between insurgent and professional forces can be had.

[ceeeb 147]

A couple of things I would like to see changed:

- one AI knowledge base per unit. Sharing of information between units of a group should not be instantaneous and absolute. Introduce delays and inaccuracies. If not possible, introduce some delays for detection input to the knowledge base of the group. Currently the AI will start firing or engaging before the player's avatar has verbally announced a detected enemy.

- reduce the AI's ability to identify the side of other units and vehicles, especially in poor weather and for units out of uniform (note this has nothing to do with the AI's detection abilities). At the moment there is very little "grey area" between first detection and side identification. In general the human player has superior detection skills, while the AI has far superior identification skills. (eg, currently the human player zooms in and reveals a unknown man in foggy conditions. while the human player may not be able to tell what side that man is on, due to the one AI knowledge base per group, the AI in his group can very quickly completely identify that man).

[maturin 12]

I have near instant, near perfect identification skills. It's simply a matter of your brain getting used to the uniforms.

Humans are far superior at recognition at long range and at night. Most of all, they have the advantage of logic and process of elimination. We know where to expect enemies and friendlies.

[Booster 1]

A couple of things I would like to see changed:

- one AI knowledge base per unit. Sharing of information between units of a group should not be instantaneous and absolute. Introduce delays and inaccuracies. If not possible, introduce some delays for detection input to the knowledge base of the group. Currently the AI will start firing or engaging before the player's avatar has verbally announced a detected enemy.

- reduce the AI's ability to identify the side of other units and vehicles, especially in poor weather and for units out of uniform (note this has nothing to do with the AI's detection abilities). At the moment there is very little "grey area" between first detection and side identification. In general the human player has superior detection skills, while the AI has far superior identification skills. (eg, currently the human player zooms in and reveals a unknown man in foggy conditions. while the human player may not be able to tell what side that man is on, due to the one AI knowledge base per group, the AI in his group can very quickly completely identify that man).

Your ideas are desirable, but in reality they are unpractical. Even sophisticated AI are no match for human intelligence, especially in a game with an enormous scope like Arma3, so it's very important to give the AI unrealistic advantages to compensate for their weaknesses, otherwise the AI will be unable to offer human opponents a serious challenge, and people are already complaining that the AI isn't 'smart' enough.