Aiming Accuracy in Arma 3

[twisted 128]

i think that BIS need to take a fresh look at what they've done so far. The breathing and waving of a gun is very important to immersion. and having it increase under fire (for AI too). AFAIR it actually was more pronounced in ofp and in jcove lite it does feel nice but needing polish/fluidity. AA had it pretty damn nice. But it's not the only thing.

arma3 is going to be a game, a great one i reckon if i know BIS. but this kind of thing is where they can shine while still being fun. taking the whole experience of the weapon, aiming it and using it and refining it is the right direction - and i saw something like that mentioned in the bis arma3 blog news. so fuck that is very exciting.

[metalcraze 290]

Well as usual you're extrapolating into the ridiculous :) but in any case - I don't know whether it's the result of a mod or not, but my gameplay is that I cannot shoot straight for 10-20 seconds after running a distance. Or doing any of the ingame heavy movements like climbing etc. I already have a swaying image that can be calmed somewhat by controlling my breathing.

The problem is I'm not extrapolating into the ridiculous.

It really is easy to put an aimpoint over an enemy and press LMB to kill him with M4 from the first shot. And with sniper rifles or rifles with optics like ACOG it's even easier because aiming sway is next to non-existant while you get magnification.

It's a reason why firefights don't last long enough in ArmA compared to reality if you play with human players - aim is way too steady for a guy who is supposedly breathing.

Remember what a big issue ridiculous MG precision was before recoil was added in 1.54? Well it's time to fix (in other words make them play the right way) rifles, especially the ones with optics.

(VBS2 is a training tool BTW)

It plays no different to ArmA (as you can easily see on YouTube). And if you will play JCove Lite you will notice that in some things VBS2 is (or was) behind in realism compared to ArmA2 (like recoil and vehicle damage systems for example). It is just being advertised differently :>

Breathing also does not ruin the gameplay at all. You won't have any problem hitting stuff, you just need to put in some more effort, and so do your enemies - making firefights longer and more intense.

Download JCove and see for yourself.

[-Coulum- 35]

Well my meaning wasn't that it would be complex, only a barrier to gameplay. If you say AA has this system and it works as a gameplay mechanic, then I'm prepared to believe that and say I'm wrong.

No it wouldn't be a barrier to game-play if implemented correctly. If we were to just bump up the default sway of weapons currently that would be a gameplay barrier. This is because currently the way weapon-sway animation is absolute shite. The sway is totally unpredictable and jumps from one point to another random point, meaning if there is any significant amount of sway you are pretty much out of luck no matter how hard you concentrate or how good your timing/breath control is.

But if implemented properly - smooth animation, proper "figure eight" pattern, slower sway, and more predictable sway it would not be a gameplay barrier at all. It would just require more concentration, time and skill to perform.

Breathing also does not ruin the gameplay at all. You won't have any problem hitting stuff, you just need to put in some more effort, and so do your enemies - making firefights longer and more intense.

This pretty much sums up what I would like to see. It is not necessary that everyone is shitty shots and everyone is just spraying and praying, but rather that it is more difficult to make accurate shots, making suppresive fire + maneuvring to get close and destroy the enemy more of a useful, efficient option. In no way do I think BIS should make it so it is impossible to shoot people further than 50 metres away or anything like that.

This shooting works pretty well in americas army and looks to work well in jcove/vbs2 and I think it would be an awesome addition to arma both from a game-play and immersion based perspective.

[Andre 10]

.....

Edited January 31, 2013 by Andre

[dmarkwick 261]

No it wouldn't be a barrier to game-play if implemented correctly. If we were to just bump up the default sway of weapons currently that would be a gameplay barrier. This is because currently the way weapon-sway animation is absolute shite. The sway is totally unpredictable and jumps from one point to another random point, meaning if there is any significant amount of sway you are pretty much out of luck no matter how hard you concentrate or how good your timing/breath control is.

But if implemented properly - smooth animation, proper "figure eight" pattern, slower sway, and more predictable sway it would not be a gameplay barrier at all. It would just require more concentration, time and skill to perform.

Yes, I can see that a predictable pattern of sway could be a gameplay enhancer, you're right :) I'm not sure about it being realistic (I reckon a more random pattern is more realistic), but I am quite sure about it making for better gameplay. The end result should be more like realistic gameplay than absolute realism in any case.

[-Coulum- 35]

@Andre

I think I understand what you are saying. Sometimes in a2 it is actually to hard to shoot ie. when you are wounded or tired. But then at other times you must agree it is too easy to shoot ie. when standing and rested. and sometimes the weapon handling doesn't seem to ortray realism.

But I ask you what do you think realism is? would realism be harder or the same shooting as in arma 2 (when you are fully rested and uninjured).

Do have any ideas or suggetsion on what would be realistic.

Yes, I can see that a predictable pattern of sway could be a gameplay enhancer, you're right I'm not sure about it being realistic (I reckon a more random pattern is more realistic), but I am quite sure about it making for better gameplay. The end result should be more like realistic gameplay than absolute realism in any case.

I think it is pretty realistic. When I shoot my sights usually sway in the figure eight pattern and since I am not skilled enough to minimize this sway, I have to time my shots when the sway of the weapon lines up with my target. Not sure if this is how your supposed to shoot but its what works for me. And in game the sway shouldn't make the exact same figure eight every single time - it would just follow that general outline. If the eight were drawn on screen the edges would be thick. And the sway would take place within these edges. so it might be slightly different every time -it would just folow the same general pattern. This way holding your breath must also be utilized, especially when sniping (For the range rifle are used this variance in sway would be so small you wouldn't need to worry about it much).

But in any case I don't think it matters if its totally realistic, because I believe almost anything would be more realistic than what we have in a2 now and in the end I believe this more predictable sway will lead to more realistic gameplay, as you mention, which is the ultimate goal of arma. Or at least that's what I believe it to be.

[dmarkwick 261]

I think it is pretty realistic. When I shoot my sights usually sway in the figure eight pattern and since I am not skilled enough to minimize this sway, I have to time my shots when the sway of the weapon lines up with my target. Not sure if this is how your supposed to shoot but its what works for me. And in game the sway shouldn't make the exact same figure eight every single time - it would just follow that general outline. If the eight were drawn on screen the edges would be thick. And the sway would take place within these edges. so it might be slightly different every time -it would just folow the same general pattern. This way holding your breath must also be utilized, especially when sniping (For the range rifle are used this variance in sway would be so small you wouldn't need to worry about it much).

But in any case I don't think it matters if its totally realistic, because I believe almost anything would be more realistic than what we have in a2 now and in the end I believe this more predictable sway will lead to more realistic gameplay, as you mention, which is the ultimate goal of arma. Or at least that's what I believe it to be.

Yep again I think you're right, a general, but slightly chaotic repeating sway pattern would be a good gameplay mechanic. It would give you a reason to measure your shots carefully after exertion, without being totally random. Concentration would be needed, and after recovery, back to normal :)

*edit*

BTW, on the occasions I ever did live shooting after exertions, I was trained to fire one or two initial covering shots before lining up correctly and more measuredly :) in which case, we're back to asking for more effective suppression effects to go hand-in-hand with this one.

Edited April 8, 2012 by DMarkwick

[-Coulum- 35]

BTW, on the occasions I ever did live shooting after exertions, I was trained to fire one or two initial covering shots before lining up correctly and more measuredly in which case, we're back to asking for more effective suppression effects to go hand-in-hand with this one.

Yeah when it comes down to it everything must fit together to make realistic firefights. Less accuracy with no suppression effects means people won't become suppressed. They'll just remain exposed, trying to shoot whoever is shooting them first. Suppression effects without harder shooting mechanics will mean people are killed before they get the chance to be suppressed. Everything needs to work in coordination.

But I think that Improving aiming mechanics is a good place to start. At least by doing that it will make the ai not quite so unfairly matched against us while maintaining longish firefights.

This thread offers more incite on what can be done to improve firefights and suppression as well.

Edited April 9, 2012 by -Coulum-

[spotter001 82]

i've just voted yes, however, i have much reserves about this poll.

Realistic shooting is all we want! Make no mistake about it. No one wants artificially difficult shooting which will only serve to make up for the failures of the AI not being challenging enough.

[BobcatBob 10]

I feel the poll options are a bit wierd I want shooting to be more REALISTIC, so yes, that would mean make shooting more difficult at longer ranges (wind, proper breathing simulation) however Close Quarters should be MUCH easier to do. Weapon bob in arma is insane, especially while aiming and moving!

[spotter001 82]

I feel the poll options are a bit wierd I want shooting to be more REALISTIC, so yes, that would mean make shooting more difficult at longer ranges (wind, proper breathing simulation) however Close Quarters should be MUCH easier to do. Weapon bob in arma is insane, especially while aiming and moving!

long range sim is excellent. u just need ACE, so that's not an issue. 'course, if BIS decides to implement those ACE solutions that would be great, however, i think we'll be still needing ACE guys to fix long range shooting.

[wipman 1]

Hi, i don't understand or get the suppossed point of this poll, the ArmA2/OA aiming accuracy doesn't exist on the move and should be improved; i've shot with automatic rifles, pistols & shotguns and the weapon dancing on the ArmA2/OA doesn't exists on real life on rugged or flat terrain. Neither aiming up or down on stairs or walking by stoned paved streets. The poll don't reflects or names the weapon's side dancing or the absence of wind and other weather effects; the inmovile shooting is fine enough and some ArmA2 weapons needed a tweaked recoil. Let's C ya

[no use for a name 0]

IMO it needs to strike a balance...I can use simple gun rests and better position the gun when I'm going to take a shot IRL, something that can't really be simulated realistically.

[-Coulum- 35]

Realistic shooting is all we want! Make no mistake about it. No one wants artificially difficult shooting which will only serve to make up for the failures of the AI not being challenging enough.

So what do you think realistic shooting is? What would you change to make it realistic. And regarding the ai not being challenging enough: the thing is we can jack up the ai presicion and turn on super ai and we will get more of a challenge. Problem is, then firefights last much shorter so we tone them down. But if we think it is alright to make the ai have a hard time hitting us why should we be able to hit them so easily? Its not so much that the ai is not challenging enough but rather that when we tweak the ai to get longer firefights, the player still remains far to accurate.

I feel the poll options are a bit wierd I want shooting to be more REALISTIC, so yes, that would mean make shooting more difficult at longer ranges (wind, proper breathing simulation) however Close Quarters should be MUCH easier to do. Weapon bob in arma is insane, especially while aiming and moving!

Yeah I guess I get what your saying, it isn't as simple as a yes and no question. But what would you rather have. An option for "whatever is realistic"? I guess I'll reword the question a bit to try and clear things up.

Do you guys think aiming mechanics should be made so that medium(150) - Long(1000+) shots require more concentration, skill and time to perform than is currently needed in a2 aiming?

I updated the original thread with this but I am not sure if it is possible to change the poll. Anyone know how I would o this?

And this is only concerning the actual aiming of the guns, from stationary, prone/standing/croaching postition. although wind concerns shooting it is not really a factor when concerning aiming unless you want to simulate more sway due to it blowing against your hands:)

Hi, i don't understand or get the suppossed point of this poll,

Its just to find out whether you think there should be change in arma 3 aiming mechanics ie. sway, sight alignments, breathing etc. The poll is supposed to be quite general. What I am really interested in is your ideas and discussion about how you would go about changing the shooting mechanics, or if you believe they are adequate as is, why you believe so.

IMO it needs to strike a balance...I can use simple gun rests and better position the gun when I'm going to take a shot IRL, something that can't really be simulated realistically.

good point. assume we are just speaking about basic shooting from a station, crouched and prone stance in which there are no objects, bipods etc. for the poll though. feel free to discuss these things as I think they would be awesome to have in the basic game however.

Edited April 8, 2012 by -Coulum-

[antoineflemming 14]

long range sim is excellent. u just need ACE, so that's not an issue. 'course, if BIS decides to implement those ACE solutions that would be great, however, i think we'll be still needing ACE guys to fix long range shooting.

Once again, ACE is not an answer to any problem. Just like "PR" is also not an answer. ArmA3 vanilla won't come with these mods. If there's some feature in these mods that is such an answer, then simply mention that feature.

[Firefox88 10]

Ive played ACE too long so I don't know if its ACE or vinilla, but the weapon sway is horrible already. They teach soldiers and obviously cops how to move at a good pace while still being able to squeeze off a shot and hit on target. Sure, I don't have 30 kg of gear on when I do it, but wearing my tac vest and rest of gear when aiming down the sights of my rifle and approaching a target (at a good pace), I don't have ANY sway. In game, I cant even keep a good sight picture with any iron sights let alone actually get a round off accurately. Even in the sitting, standing or prone position the sway is too much, its not realistic for trained military personnel. I think they need to tone down the sway.

I understand if you just ran a mile or two with a full pack you aren't gonna be pin point but I'm talking about fresh in game or from a vehicle. I think the problem with the sight picture with moving is, the rifle stays in the same position while you step back and forth which IRL it stays with you.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Firefox88

[maturin 12]

You don't have ANY sway. Really.:j:

So you must have a 100% hit rate at 500m, then.

The game gives you completely perfect trigger pulls and sight alignment. Sway is the compensation.

The huge amount of sway while walking is mostly just the result of the up-and-down motion of the torso being transmitted to the gun without being stabilized by the arms. And the rest of the sway isn't too much, it's just too unpredictable.

[giorgygr 61]

The huge amount of sway while walking is mostly just the result of the up-and-down motion of the torso being transmitted to the gun without being stabilized by the arms. And the rest of the sway isn't too much, it's just too unpredictable.

Yes this is too unnatural bahavior. ( Beautiful remark tho.)

-----

From a PvP player perspective the current system always favors the experienced player (too game-ish).

Bringing a realistic breathing system will surely prolong firefights-giving a new player more survivability chances when he meets me

( :p ) while it will at-last give hardcore-milsim-fanatics the feeling of a real gun.

Make it real BIS..you 'll earn more money ;)

[-Coulum- 35]

I actually agree that sway while moving is way too much and not realistic. I'm not trained or anything and I can do better... I can't reduce sway to 0 however... but I assume you are just exaggeration to make a point? But sway while moving is not really what I am talking about. I mean stationary shooting at medium to long range. and maybe I am a bit unclear about this but I don't think that your actually accuracy should be degraded - rather I think it should take more time to achieve such accuracy. Firefox88, I believe you when you say you can shoot accurately at range, but I ask you how quickly can you line up these shots? If you can bring up your sights and shoot as quickly and accurately as arma 2: hitting a man from 300 metres in 2-3 seconds and 3 or 4 shots... well that's very impressive. But my guess is for you to achieve full accuracy, you need to take at least a few seconds to look down the sights, align them if necessary, steady your weapon line up a shot and shoot no? You need a bit of time and concentration right?

The point of adding more weapon sway is not to make people less accurate. It is to make them take more time, concentration and effort in order to achieve this accuracy. You will still be able to achieve nice tight groupings with the sway - you just won't be able to do it nearly as fast as you can currently. this lack of speed will force people to make the decision between slow accurate fire or quick inaccurate fire, thus promoting the use of suppression which I think everyone can agree is severly lacking in a2.

and keep in mind, if you haven't read earlier in the thread, this sway would be smooth and much more predictable than currently. that way it is easy to compensate for... if you are concentrating on your shot, which is similar to real life no? Have I made you possibly reconsider your point of view Firefox88, even if only by a bit?

And surely you guys can agree that when it comes to sniping, aiming complexity is lacking. Yes it is more complex than any other game out there (with ace), but essentially it comes down to adjusting for range, adjusting for wind, pointing at the target and shooting. I mean is that really what a sniper does. no breath control, or aiming techniques whatsover? I can't say there is really such thing as a well aimed shot in arma because of this (besides moving targets). Give yourself a rifle scoped for the correct range and wind and you will be able to hit your mark 100% of the time no matter who you are. almost 0 skill or even concentration required.

Edited April 8, 2012 by -Coulum-

[Choki 10]

the problem is the AI accuracy

[-Coulum- 35]

the problem is the AI accuracy

How do you mean? If you think the ai is not accurate enough, well that will make firefights to short if it is improved. If you feel the ai is too accurate, I agree with you and this is why we drop their skills via ace, asr ai etc. This creates better firefights but don't you think since the ai have a harder time shooting you should too? I mean your even more accurate than an ai on full skill. Thus I think there should be more of a challenge to shooting accurately so quickly.

[Choki 10]

I mean, the AI is very accurate. The real battles take much longer, that is due to the precision.

But you cant reduce greatly the accuracy of the AI, because one of the most exciting things in ArmA is that anytime you can be killed.

I've shot many times with big guns and I am very precise. :o (untrained)

I think the problem is that the AI sees us and points much better than we do in game.

Thus I think there should be more of a challenge to shooting accurately so quickly.

Yes I agree on that

[-Coulum- 35]

I mean, the AI is very accurate. The real battles take much longer, that is due to the precision.

But you cant reduce greatly the accuracy of the AI, because one of the most exciting things in ArmA is that anytime you can be killed.

I agree with you. I believe the ai's accuracy need to be more dynamic. sometimes they should be taking their time to produce well placed shot while other times the should be trying to suppress or pop of quick inaccurate shots... But this belongs in another thread. Kind of like this one.

I think the problem is that the AI sees us and points much better than we do in game.

Disagree with you her though. one ai is not as accurate as one human in any way. and they are quite slow to aim. Think of it through the ai shoes. If you saw some one 200 metres away in arma 2 would you be able to hit them in 2 or 3 shots and very quickly? I know i can and I suck at shooters. I can tell you that the ai can't do this reliably however.

Originally Posted by -Coulum-

Thus I think there should be more of a challenge to shooting accurately so quickly.

Yes I agree on that

glad to hear that. And this is really what I am trying to suggest. people seem to think I simply want humans to be inaccurate... This is not the case. I want humans to still be capable of accuracy. I just want :

it to make them take more time, concentration and effort in order to achieve this accuracy. You will still be able to achieve nice tight groupings with the sway - you just won't be able to do it nearly as fast as you can currently. this lack of speed will force people to make the decision between slow accurate fire or quick inaccurate fire, thus promoting the use of suppression which I think everyone can agree is severly lacking in a2.

I guess the title of my thread is misleading. damn I wish I could change it.

From a PvP player perspective the current system always favors the experienced player (too game-ish).

Why do you think this is? I don't really have much experience with pvp and seems odd that the "less compels system" favors the "vets".

Edited April 9, 2012 by -Coulum-

[maturin 12]

At least before 1.60 patch, you could reduce the AI accuracy to the level of utter uselessness.

[rye1 22]

Harder to shoot means balancing speed vs accuracy (

) and not just adjusting as you shoot.

I've re-capped the A3 videos and their accuracy in close quarters at least is amazing. They get good hits on target. 8 inch circle, say, of the enemies chest from 5-20m it's all going in there and the weapon looks like it is easy to control. That's good and all for CQB... but it makes me wonder what it'll be like for a 500m point target shot. I bet you, you could pull it off.

This then makes me wonder... imagine an AI squad. You aren't an area target at 800m, you're dead.