Hinds FM

[Scorlhov 1]

The FM of the Hind is very weird for me too on expert. Very twitchy, completely unbalanced in trim neutral mode (strong tendency to nose up, roll left and yaw right)

The Hind is very stable for me. Check your axies sensitivity.

I would imagine the real one has tabs that can be set for different flight modes

I don't think so :)

IMO, the FM are good, except too much torque induced yaw and some weird behavior (due to the rotorlib Fm, i think)

I have no problem to master the hind. With some tweak it will be great.

@hon0

Good training and good landing

I never fly the Hind in Seattle :)

Edited April 11, 2012 by Scorlhov

[EagleEye-GER- 0]

I actually did try Black Shark right from the get go and I love it - just like the A10C - also a great Sim. I am also planing to upgrade to the latest version of the Balckshark. But I always thought that the Heli feels almost too easy, too smooth to fly. Probably also due to the Koax Setup. But it flies like a piece of rock stable smooth and great!! Exactly what you would expect from a machine this size... Altough... I always thought the Trick about the Ka-50 is the System Depth and not so much the Flightmodel... What do the Ka-50 Experts say?

(I don`t know how far discussing about another product and advertising is allowed, but the moderators will eventualy stop me if necessary.)

The "trick" about the Ka-50 and A-10C IS the FM, I would say(sure DM and system depth is another). They have a table based WITH detailed simulation of surfaces(i.e. X-Plane also use surface simulation, also RoF). Remember that vid?:

Wind is blowing over the surfaces of the blades. Never seen something similar in PC simulations. Another point is, that you actually can see that the whole model is affected by mass and weight. When reloading the Ka-50 on one side you can see the heli is tilting to this side. When landing the Ka-50 on a road and let a truck driving into the tail (for example) of the heli the Ka-50 will be moved by the truck physicaly correct.

Have you flown the Ka-50 without the pitch, bank and lateral dampeners (aka Autopilot, the AP channels)? I think the main reason why the Ka-50 is so stable are the dampeners, which are a stability augmentation system. I often accidentaly forget to engage these and begin to exagerating my control inputs leading to a unstable flight until I engage these APs.

I think the main issue is still that all objects in BIs engine didn`t have the right mass. I.e. the trucks behave the same like tanks and contrariwise. Therefore I´m looking forward to Arma3 and it`s physic system. With Rotorlib the physics for the blades and all other surfaces will be calculated, but maybe will be simplified due to BI engine limitations or something else, don`t know.

[max power 21]

Tanks have 20 times the mass of trucks in ArmA 2.

[sleat 10]

The FM of the Hind is very weird for me too on expert. Very twitchy, completely unbalanced in trim neutral mode (strong tendency to nose up, roll left and yaw right), only controlleable in high speed forward flight.

It seems something is off with the twitchyness, but apart from that, all the helo needs is trim settings.

I would imagine the real one has tabs that can be set for different flight modes (because if the Hind pilots tested the same FM we have right now in expert and found it realistic, the big difference is either us not being twitchy enough, or not having access to control aids that the real pilots do have.)

Would be interesting to hear what this is about.

An astute observation. My suspicion is that Mi24 pilots did not fly it in Expert mode (which only seems to be available in "Challenges") and declare it was realistic. I'd totally believe they flew it in Free Flight, which feels like "Beginner" to me.

Real helis with hydraulic controls generally have a trim hat switch labelled 'force trim' on the cyclic. Little ones like the R22 have a compensating spring gizmo which applies force in a similar way for different flight.

I wouldn't describe the feeling of flying a full-size heli as 'twitchy' at all unless something is broken. In fact, when it's being flown correctly, which in real life, for safety's sake would be like 100% of the time, you'd really struggle to see the controls move much at all. The collective comes down in a pronounced way once the skids touch, but other than that, not much visible movement in the controls.

You can get either a large model or a real one moving at about 20kt and in calm weather once you trim it, it'll sit like that and just fly along. They just don't thrash about like the Hind does in Expert. 18,000-26,000 pounds of heli would never twitch and thrash about unless metal was breaking.

As far as "Control Aids" some large helis like the blackhawk, apache, or AH-1 have something called SCAS but it's on a switch, and certainly not required to fly the thing. It's a fairly basic pitch/roll rate damper on the cyclic and possibly tailrotor on that vintage of heli.

It does lessen the workload somewhat, like a cruise control or automatic transmission would. It's been posted here that the Mi24 has the same.

By contrast, the H500 doesn't have any stability augmentation, and it feels just fantastic. And the ToH model feels very much like the real thing!

[Scorlhov 1]

Ah, the KA-50, the heli who can fly throw the trees and dive at 700 km/h without damage :)

Don't compare the hind with a co_axial rotor heli, not the same thing

[sleat 10]

I'm far to be a helicopter pilot so I can not say the flight model is wrong. However I just technicaly CAN'T be as precise on pedal with the hind than the other helo type. Way too "light" or "sensitive" or "powerfull" don't know how to describe it..

Yes.. Even after ajusting my setting ;) I need something close to 50% right pedal input to take off without.. (The thing that happend when you crush the left pedal :o).

I understand 2 words on 3 but it looks funny ;)

fuk Here is my.. Hmmm FARP in seattle where I challenge my training skill with all kind of helo.

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Thanks! Have you got any vids that play back in normal sim time instead of high-speed? The rapid decelerations without pitching the fuselage, and very modest ASI reading are a dead giveaway. :-P

You're such a good heli driver! Why ruin it for the audience by speeding up the playback?

A vid tooling around one of the real FARPs in Expert mode in one of the "Challenge" scenarios would be choice. No combat, just driving. How 'bout it?

Oh, and keep that speedo and your hands where I can see 'em, and fly between two identifiable points in a straight line. Easy!

I'll do it if you will!

[beepee 10]

Have you got any vids that play back in normal sim time instead of high-speed?

Buahahaha :232:

[hon0 10]

... The only things I edited is the "my training landing area." Took me 10min cause I'm noob on VEGAS. And the song.. That's all...

But I'll play arround the challenge FARP if you want it ! Video comming soon ;)

I could even send you the playback path so you can see there is no "trick" or "cheat" :j:.. I can't watch my hand while flying this thank yet. It need too much micro adjustement. But you'll be able to watch them in the playback scenario. However the feet don't move in the playback. (Only the hand).

I'm thinking : I'm not sure i can record the patch in a scenario? Is there a way to add "prebuild'FARP" in the editor?

Thanks,

Antoine

Edit : Oh and hell yeah the Track IR is like a 3rd stick for me. Absolutly needed !

Edited April 11, 2012 by hon0

[instagoat 133]

Did an experiment. For neutral stick takeoff at 80 % collective setting (Takistan map) set trim as follows:

Yaw: 15 clicks right

Pitch: 5 clicks aft

Roll: 3 clicks right

Helicopter should lift off without need for excessive control input.

Tested with Mi-24P (FAB) only, but this should be about correct in general. Without setting takeoff trim, you´re just gonna flail about. Changing power levels and speed affects trim state massively, so this needs to be adjusted as the aircraft moves trough the flight envelope.

Hope this helps

Insta

[hon0 10]

I tried to watch my hand while flying but it's not easy.. And sorry I forgot to fly between two identifiable points in a straight line. Anayway there is no problem for that exepct BRUTAL change on the "Yaw" behavior while gaining speed. So brutal than it's hard to keep a perfect straight line.

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Now it's your turn :p

Edited April 12, 2012 by hon0

[sportpilot 1]

hon0 you fly in Freeflight, right? And we did mention, that the prob occurs only in the "Challenges" in "Expert" mode remember? ;-) So this particular Vid is pretty useless for this particular conversation. Nothing to do with your flying skills, ok?

Here is another challenge for you since you seem to enjoy this so much.

Take the Hind from cold and dark in a challenge in Expert mode, take off, hover for 30 Secs, then fly forward and accelerate to about 120kts and climb to 4000ft, next pull up roll inverted and dive down and recover from this manouver b4 you hit the ground ;-)

BTW: I did not say that I cant fly the Hind or it is not possible to fly it, that is NOT the point. I am saying that the FM is off. Way off, to be precise.

I would not be writing this if BI would not claim that their FM is 90% comparable to the real deal. If they say we have this nice little helo game that contains a hind and flies pretty nice, no need to share any further words. Its a game and lets master it. Fine. But this is NOT the case. I mean, For instance I am asking myself how anybody can actually fly these birds even semi realistically if NONE! of them even have a functioning turn-coordinator. You will never even now if you are slipping and sliding around ;-)

Ohh and speaking of instrumentation: How are you supposed to find your waypoints in the Heavy Helo. The ADF needle in the Heavy doesnt point to the next WP like in the other Helos. There are only some cam gadgets available but nothing substantial that will allow to navigate in a at least semi realistic manner - If you are not implementing real Navaids and use this pseudo ADF/NDB Nav thingy, thats fine. But pls at least make it consistant for all helos.

Anyways, I think it IS time to react for BI since there is enough evidence pointing towards a too twitchy behaviour in yaw for the Hind when operating in Expert mode.

Also every helo should at least have a working turn coordinator. The absence of such a cruical Instrument and the way off Flightmodel point toward the fact that the FM does not (properly? or at all?) calculate the required data refs to be displayed in an instrument. And this is not acceptable if you make such big "we are soo realistic" claims. Speed, Altimeter/VSI, HSI, artificial Horizont and! Turn Coordinator are the minimum instrumentation for everything that flies.

What do you say BI?

Hands up whoever agrees at least on the yaw issue, pls. Thnks

[max power 21]

Well, that distinction wasn't clear to me until this point. And if that is the case, it's not a flight model issue, it's an issue with the challenges somehow. Perhaps you should start a bug report. I, personally, have found no difference between the challenges and placing the hind in the editor. Perhaps it is a performance issue for you?

I tried your test and the hind was actually quite easy to pull through the maneuver. I didn't have the patience to climb to 4000 ft, so I did it from between 1 and 2000 (under 1000 meters). From the inverted, the hind it quite easy to pitch through the maneuver. It has a tendency to pull to the left. Once the maneuver is completed, however, the aircraft is not in forward flight anymore and the vector is more or less downwards, causing the nose to want to drop and leaving you without trim supplied by the fin. Because of this condition, the helicopter feels quite unstable, but as its sink rate decreases and its forward airspeed catches up to the force trim, this diminishes rapidly.

I've found that in this sim, if you're doing aerobatics, it helps quite a bit to lower the collective to about half to decrease the torque forces acting on the helicopter.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Max Power

[Scorlhov 1]

I would not be writing this if BI would not claim that their FM is 90% comparable to the real deal. If they say we have this nice little helo game that contains a hind and flies pretty nice, no need to share any further words. Its a game and lets master it. Fine. But this is NOT the case. I mean, For instance I am asking myself how anybody can actually fly these birds even semi realistically if NONE! of them even have a functioning turn-coordinator. You will never even now if you are slipping and sliding around ;-)

Ohh and speaking of instrumentation: How are you supposed to find your waypoints in the Heavy Helo. The ADF needle in the Heavy doesnt point to the next WP like in the other Helos. There are only some cam gadgets available but nothing substantial that will allow to navigate in a at least semi realistic manner - If you are not implementing real Navaids and use this pseudo ADF/NDB Nav thingy, thats fine. But pls at least make it consistant for all helos.

Anyways, I think it IS time to react for BI since there is enough evidence pointing towards a too twitchy behaviour in yaw for the Hind when operating in Expert mode.

Also every helo should at least have a working turn coordinator. The absence of such a cruical Instrument and the way off Flightmodel point toward the fact that the FM does not (properly? or at all?) calculate the required data refs to be displayed in an instrument. And this is not acceptable if you make such big "we are soo realistic" claims. Speed, Altimeter/VSI, HSI, artificial Horizont and! Turn Coordinator are the minimum instrumentation for everything that flies.

What do you say BI?

Hands up whoever agrees at least on the Torque/yaw issue, pls. Thnks

+1

Agreed 100% for the absence of crucial instruments and Torque/yaw issue

[hon0 10]

Free flight, challenge, editor, there is no difference for me :confused:

Go to option/Game option/difficulty and choose expert.

+1 for what you said about instrument and Yaw !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Split_S.png

Is that the "challenge" you're talking about?

Edited April 12, 2012 by hon0

[sportpilot 1]

yes its called a Split S and was originally invented by Spitfire Pilots I believe, because the carburators would not work under Neg G forces. In Order to rapidly change Altitude they Split Sst instead of pushing the Stick ffwd...

[max power 21]

yes its called a Split S and was originally invented by Spitfire Pilots I believe, because the carburators would not work under Neg G forces. In Order to rapidly change Altitude they Split Sst instead of pushing the Stick ffwd...

I doubt very much it was invented by spitfire pilots. There are many more reasons why pulling positive G is better in general than pushing negative G than just the carbuerator of the Merlin engine, and why a diving turn is better than a climbing turn in a pursuit situation. Surely in all of the aerial combat in WW1, and all of the pioneering before hand, and all of the interwar days when flight was becoming extremely common, at the very least, someone dropped his whiskey bottle into his lap and accidently rolled into an inverted dive while he chased it around the floor of the cockpit, and had to pull positive G into level flight to avoid spilling the liquid inside.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Max Power

[sportpilot 1]

well, yeah sure...

its a known fact that the human body tolerates positive g about 5x better than neg g - but still the 109 where fuel injected to allow for exactly that - neg acceleration. ln combat you will try about anything to shake you visitor on your 6. but whenever the english pilots pushed on their stick the merlin would stutter and even cut out. this is why they used the split s anytime and more prominent than the germans. so invented is probably not the right word. but the first wide spread use must be credited to the island guys..

[beepee 10]

The split-s was a common manouver waaaay before Spitfires. The Wolrd War One pilots used it quite often, for example to attack two-sitter machines. So no, it can not be credited to Spitfire pilots.

[Scorlhov 1]

A split S for the Hind, mmmh...,is this manoeuver possible in Real life, i doubt it. It's not an Apache or ka-50 :)

In TOH, i will try.

[max power 21]

Apparently the hind can do rolls. I'm not sure about the split S. Usually negative loading on the rotor blades is a bad thing. It Take On it's doable, but you must unload the rotor as much as possible. On the ground you can see the effects of high cyclic forces by trying to push forward on the stick to roll forward on the wheels. It tries to spin around instead. And of course everyone is familiar with the torque effects of the collective. If you try to have as little collective loading as possible on the helicopter when you're pulling back on the stick to complete the split S, it's much easier to guide through the maneuver. Once you're back at level flight, you will not be travelling forward, but downward, and the helicopter really doesn't like to be at that angle of attack, so you have to fight it a bit until your vector catches up with your flight attitude.

[4 IN 1 0]

I have never fly a HIND before...

Key word of the day.

[Scorlhov 1]

Interesting

"At low speed or low altitude, where the frequent ground winds came into play, the ‘Hind’ would start acting up. Due to its inadequate directional control, the tail rotor would try to pull the helicopter into an uncommanded left turn and, at worst, could cause it to flip into a spin, with almost certainly disastrous results. The main rotor blades stalled during high-£ manoeuvres at high speed and high Alpha, causing the Mi-24 to pitch up uncontrollably and fall through sharply. This phenomenon, known as podkhvaht (‘pick-up’), often resulted in a hard landing on the wing endplates and FFAR pods. A ‘pick-up’ could be avoided by sticking to the book (in other words, taking it nice and slow), but this was hardly possible in combat."

Here

http://warandgame.com/2009/06/04/the-hind-and-the-war-in-afghanistan/

[sportpilot 1]

Hey MAX Power, any comments on the Intrument issues I mentioned b4?

[liquidpinky 11]

A split S for the Hind, mmmh...,is this manoeuver possible in Real life, i doubt it. It's not an Apache or ka-50 :)

In TOH, i will try.

At fixed wing tacticts it is better than both of those, why even compare a slow moving systems based gunship and a coaxial to the hind which is one of the worlds fastest helicopters and has high lift thanks to its wings.

I don't know whether when they first invented the hind they intended to make a compound helicopteror or they did it purely by accident?

[instagoat 133]

Interesting

"At low speed or low altitude, where the frequent ground winds came into play, the ‘Hind’ would start acting up. Due to its inadequate directional control, the tail rotor would try to pull the helicopter into an uncommanded left turn and, at worst, could cause it to flip into a spin, with almost certainly disastrous results. The main rotor blades stalled during high-£ manoeuvres at high speed and high Alpha, causing the Mi-24 to pitch up uncontrollably and fall through sharply. This phenomenon, known as podkhvaht (‘pick-up’), often resulted in a hard landing on the wing endplates and FFAR pods. A ‘pick-up’ could be avoided by sticking to the book (in other words, taking it nice and slow), but this was hardly possible in combat."

Here

http://warandgame.com/2009/06/04/the-hind-and-the-war-in-afghanistan/

Excellent article, good insight.