How to improve the Close Quarter Combat experience in Arma 3?

[ProfTournesol 956]

R6RS is not a good example. It's a floating camera where you can adjust height from a top position to prone and still be on the move. Like you are not playing a human soldier but a flying turret.

Want it or not but save for some things (which ArmA3 does take from RS - like dynamic BUT realistic stances) R6RS is not far from being an advanced version of Counter-Strike.

And with 15 kg on my back, it doesn't take "half a second" to crouch. ArmA2 characters actually plays crouch anims, contrary to most of the games i know.

[vampire613 1]

So you want Battlefield with big maps. Why won't you suggest it to DICE then?

Why is it always ArmA forums that get these requests? Just curious.

No i dont want a f&!king Battlefield with bigger maps , i want Arma smooth.

Kindly read posts before answering them.

And with 15 kg on my back, it doesn't take "half a second" to crouch. ArmA2 characters actually plays crouch anims, contrary to most of the games i know.

I've had 15kg on my back before and i sure as hell dont crouch like they do in arma 2. On the contary the weight would push you down and make it faster. Soldiers are trained to fight with all kit , they would not be opperationally effective if they could only crouch in slow motion and walk around like tellitubbies , think about it.

Edited January 4, 2013 by vampire613

[iceman77 19]

I hate when you even mention a BF feature / gameplay people instantly think you like and/or play BF3 and want to change Arma to become battlefield. When talking about CQB, indoors especially, I think people reference BF3 just as an example of how they would like movement to be indoors. I don't think the majority have a problem with movement out in the open. I think most if not all can agree, the movement indoors... well... it just plain sucks. It's been really bad since day one of operation flashpoint. So yeah, I'd like to see smoother movement indoors. Sort of like BF smooth. Notice I never said I wanted Arma to have the BF engine. It was just a reference for how smooth movement indoors should be.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Iceman77

[NeMeSiS 11]

I've had 15kg on my back before and i sure as hell dont crouch like they do in arma 2. On the contary the weight would push you down and make it faster.

Yes, because when you crouch you just let your body collapse until the desired height, then apply force. Also, physics.

Crouching speed if fine, though i am not sure if they fixed the run to sprint transition when you are in crouch mode which made you stop for a very short time. But its not that annoying, since i can barely remember it.

Edited January 4, 2013 by NeMeSiS

[PuFu 4600]

I hate when you even mention a BF feature / gameplay people metalcraze instantly think you like and/or play BF3 and want to change Arma to become battlefield.

corrected^^

[mr burns 132]

Theres one thing it´d need to really make a change on a broader level: Make AI care for their fellow AI´s!

Mods, addons and scripts may have made AI enter buildings or even rearm on their own, but there´s still a huge lack of sense in anything it tries to do (not even talking pathfinding).

There´s still too much influx of an internal "cannot get there" going on with the AI, moments where they fully lose all their cognitive senses (AI wandering about between enemy players like under the influx of shellshock) have gotten less than before, but still are way to common. The usual lack of perception for fallen comrades doesn´t make it any better.

There´s always a sense of humour in anything AI does:

AI sees comrade getting shot

Expectation: AI throws hands over it´s head, hauls ass immediately for cover (alternatively squats down and starts crying)

Reality: Only if killed AI is grouped to observing AI there will be a reaction

AI panics

Expectation: AI organizes, uses cover/concealment for retreat, some surrender (may vary based on AI skill)

Reality: AI goes prone, stands up, goes prone *ad infinitum or runs around in circles (no skill influence whatsoever)

... and there´s like a gazillion more of those cases plus their according unfunny realitys attached.

With ArmA2 it (the AI) might have started utilizing cover to a btter degree, rather than just seeing any object as an obstacle as in OFP, but the major immersion breaking fuckups are still there :(

Edited January 4, 2013 by Mr Burns

[chortles 263]

This is inexcusable in a military simulator* Im sure some minor tweaks and improvements will be made in arma 3 but nothing ground breaking.

Let's put it this way: BI isn't about to scrap the engine just to achieve this, and EA isn't interested in the milsim part... nor is truthbetold anyone but BI as far as publishers go. At this point, considering how delayed this installment is, I imagine that the Arma 3 project literally can't afford to start over... and thus literally can't afford to not make the same mistake over and over.

Rye is correct that it seems that "it's not something BIS doesn't know of"... just don't expect much if anything more than what you've seen already if you believe that that's "barely anything", because both I and apparently a bunch of casuals/non-Arma fans actually thought merely adding tactical pace, the stance adjustment system, and making the mouse look/aim more like other shooters was enough of an improvement (for now).

I have to agree with vampire613. I can't believe this flaw remained a constantly reappearing part of the series still after 2001 (OPF) untill today (ArmA2) and has been the reason why I was not really able to get into these games. I have to say though, that I am less interested in a full scale warfare, but rather small unit CQB, so I've been rather playing the Rainbow Six and SWAT games.

And therein lies both the cause and the problem: the Real Virtuality engine has always been designed with "full scale warfare" ranges in mind even at CQB's expense, even when more public domain information came out about the intricacy and complexity of CQB and it became the popular culture rage -- maybe that means that "the Arma concept" just isn't what you're interested in? ;) Edited January 4, 2013 by Chortles

[rye1 22]

Expectation

ARMA'd.

[metalcraze 290]

No i dont want a f&!king Battlefield with bigger maps , i want Arma smooth.

I thought you said " The smoothness of battlefield ".

Bro it's not possible to simulate soldier's body and make it "battlefield smooth" at the same time. Body movements are not smooth. And that's what makes ArmA interesting - because just like IRL you can't frag-grind in CQB. You need to approach with care, not sweep through a corridor fragging enemies left and right. Sure there's space for an improvement like eliminating peg-leg movement but BIS already makes it smoother for ArmA3 and I'm pretty sure that will be more than enough.

I've had 15kg on my back before and i sure as hell dont crouch like they do in arma 2. On the contary the weight would push you down and make it faster.

Ugh that's not how physics and human bodies work.

Soldiers are trained to fight with all kit , they would not be opperationally effective if they could only crouch in slow motion and walk around like tellitubbies , think about it.

Falling down on their knee from a standing stance in 0.5 secs, especially with gear, is a painful experience for both "tellitubbies" and soldiers.

Edited January 4, 2013 by metalcraze

[rye1 22]

Kneepads are a great invention, aren't they? Man. If it isn't smooth, it doesn't make it interesting - it makes it frustrating. If you wanted to set your goal to actually put some effort into CQB that would not just be enough, it would be a compromise. If you're saying BIS is looking for a compromise, which would be possible due to money and developer time restraints when you talk of such a subject then sure. That would be a great improvement. Then the next step is hoping on a CQB mod or DLC. :p

[metalcraze 290]

Man. If it isn't smooth, it doesn't make it interesting - it makes it frustrating.

Reality is often frustrating. Why can't I just bunnyhop over fences with the gear all I want? Why can't I go from prone to standing in an instant? Why can't I run and shoot people 50m away with my gun? Why can't I knife my way through the whole base without any alarm? This is so frustrating!

If you're saying BIS is looking for a compromise

Yes they do. And I'm quite happy with how it is still. But hopefully they won't take it too far and it still will be a body simulation and not a floating camera for 'frag-grinding' which is what I guess people mean by 'CQB'

[Tonci87 163]

Reality is often frustrating. Why can't I just bunnyhop over fences with the gear all I want? Why can't I go from prone to standing in an instant? Why can't I run and shoot people 50m away with my gun? Why can't I knife my way through the whole base without any alarm? This is so frustrating!

Yes they do. And I'm quite happy with how it is still. But hopefully they won't take it too far and it still will be a body simulation and not a floating camera for 'frag-grinding' which is what I guess people mean by 'CQB'

Youn are right there metalcraze.

I hope BIS improves the current system, without replacing it by a floating camera. I think that they will do a good job on that.

[maddogx 13]

The only real problems I see with the current animation system are the uninterruptible anims that lock you into place, the rigid ("wooden") postures, and also the "stance dance" bugs like when switching stances with binocs in hand. This is the stuff that makes the movement system feel clunky and awkward. (There are also some anims that look stupid in Arma2, like running with a pistol in hand, but we know that those have been fixed in Arma3 for a while now.)

Anyway, changing stances, switching weapons, throwing grenades etc. should all be possible while retaining full freedom of WASD movement.

Of course there a few logical exceptions, for example I don't think it's really possible to crawl while throwing a grenade. In cases like that, movement should probably always trump other actions, i.e. it should never feel like you are frozen in place because your avatar happens to be doing something else.

[down8 30]

I thought you said " The smoothness of battlefield ".

Bro it's not possible to simulate soldier's body and make it "battlefield smooth" at the same time. Body movements are not smooth. And that's what makes ArmA interesting - because just like IRL you can't frag-grind in CQB. You need to approach with care, not sweep through a corridor fragging enemies left and right. Sure there's space for an improvement like eliminating peg-leg movement but BIS already makes it smoother for ArmA3 and I'm pretty sure that will be more than enough.

Ugh that's not how physics and human bodies work.

Falling down on their knee from a standing stance in 0.5 secs, especially with gear, is a painful experience for both "tellitubbies" and soldiers.

I agree with all.

It would be wonderful if they implement the relation of the fluidness the movements of the soldiers depending of the amount of gear they carry. This way, for example SWAT units in urban enviroment can move very fluid, and you have tradeoffs selecting gear, which also enhances gameplay. This way the game is no dumbed down, and there is a posibility to design better MOUT and CQB missions. But I know this is a dream :-).

[iceman77 19]

Reality is often frustrating. Why can't I just bunnyhop over fences with the gear all I want? Why can't I go from prone to standing in an instant? Why can't I run and shoot people 50m away with my gun? Why can't I knife my way through the whole base without any alarm? This is so frustrating!

Well to be fair, I don't think anyone said anything even remotely close to that. I think we would all just like for our gun to not hang up on every corner. And for the movement inside of the buildings to be more fluid in general. I mean... I navigate buildings in real life just fine. Though it's manageable in Arma, the rigid movement indoors is certainly a far cry from being "realistic". Which is your whole reason for absolutely disliking BF, which I get. I don't care for it either, as a whole. But you can't tell us you've never had a little bit of trouble, or a fumble inside of a building in this game due to the rigid mechanics.

Arguing over a shitty Battlefrenzie game aside, I just can't wait until I can position my weapon in a manner where it doesn't hang up, and I can navigate a building easier.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Iceman77

[rye1 22]

Well situationally it can be an overload to developers so generally they have to go with the compromise. I expect a compromise. I expect good animations that hopefully can be used productively in ARMA 3 with an improvement to CQB. I expect a step-up from ARMA 2 when it comes to CQB. I expect (with a whole lot of hoping) that enterability issues are toned down so we can enter a room with bumping all over the place or getting stuck. I expect to move around the room fluidly, into other rooms fluidly, to use the environment with my character fluidly. Fluidity! No stopping and starting, no bumps and scraps, no offsets, no downfalls, no annoyances. Dreaming most probably.

Situationally strafing to your left will be a certain speed and that may not meet all situations - for example you'd slow it right down to pie off a corner before moving BUT the animations may not allow for that. The fast versus slow animations may not be perfect for it - it's just a general effort because you can't make perfect for situations. As well, what will the strafing be - will it be a side step, a shuffle step. Will tactical pace affect it negatively? Can I hold shift and slow it down? Can I adjust my height or lean? Can I do this on the move? Can I do other actions on the move for example using a grenade?

I mean you get those animations that leave you stuck out. For example a right handed person pie'ing out a left-hand corner tends to get clipped quite a lot in a PVP. It's a weak side, a weak point in the mechanics. Yeah, sure, swap shoulder or grip and problem solved but that's not a possible solution in ARMA. Therefore you'll always have certain animations that won't be right, you'll always have branches of features and problem solvers but that adds more to an ever-growing list.

Your animations depend on your axis of advance (axis of travel), your upper body rotation, your direction of observation. If you could turn your body quicker, you could get into tighter corners quicker. You could buttonhook on that door with ease rather than bumping into the doorjamb and getting clipped and stuck or reverting back to another arc because you collided. Will where I'm looking affect how I move or how quickly I can rotate or spin around? Will an axis directly front be faster than walking backwards whilst facing the same direction? How long will the animations be? They're all reasonable questions but we don't know the answers and we can't decipher how it will be or look, the only power we have is within the power of suggestion. I hope BIS asks these questions and kind of models and reflects that around better CQB and fighting overall.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Well clipping a gun/rifle barrel through walls and other solid objects should be a no-go. Imo somekind of body feedback feature/system for players body would be good so the player will have some troubles if he is doing something wrong or/and too fast.

[mr_centipede 31]

You all should try and play with trackIR... that thing is a miracle from the heavens. With practice, you can navigate through the tight space of the indoor. The trick is you look to where you want to turn (eg door/corner) and sync it with your mouse turning. But yeah, it does need a few moments to get used to it. I remember a few headaches and stiff necks for trying not to move my head...

Anyway, it works. At least for me. Maybe not the holy grail of CQB, but it may relieve some of your pains.

[vampire613 1]

And therein lies both the cause and the problem: the Real Virtuality engine has always been designed with "full scale warfare" ranges in mind even at CQB's expense, even when more public domain information came out about the intricacy and complexity of CQB and it became the popular culture rage -- maybe that means that "the Arma concept" just isn't what you're interested in?

With a smooth arma there would be no reason to choose between either CQC or long range, they would both be equally polished. Having to choose one or the other limits arma's credability as a military simulator completely.

[chrisb 196]

‘SLX anims’ mixed with ‘St movement/collision’ have helped a great deal with the clipping, bumping, stance changes, weapon hold etc. However there are a few SLX anims that I don’t use i.e. the bino anim, steep lying, death, headbob, holdsprint, injured and jump, although its all down to personal preference.

Approaching a corner correctly, depending on the weapon your using, should be o.k. when using ‘ST’, certainly a lot less clipping/bumping, also getting hung up on doorways or corners is rare with this mix..

‘SLX Pistolcivil’ anim also helped, holstering your pistol is handy and realistic, although there are not many units that show holstered pistols even after you have holstered it.

The BIS anim for running has improved somewhat from the earlier one used, or maybe its just the mix that helps, anyway running anim is reasonable.

Movement through building for the ai, is not so much troublesome but could do with better anims, but there again they can and do move through buildings with very little problem, although going prone in doorways that have steps outside can be a problem and look really bad, but its reasonably rare.

Having arma do RS type movements is probably not going to happen, you (human players) can get near to it with SMK, but that can conflict with parts of SLX (resulting in frozen figures)..

I just can’t see ai in this series doing room clearances properly, as said, human players can do this reasonably well with SMK.

Popping through the odd wall here and there, has always been an issue, I hope they sort that out better for A3. It does seem to be a problem that occurs more with OA buildings as opposed to earlier buildings, not sure why, maybe its just that there are more enterable buildings, so law of averages..

Anyway modders made up the shortfall regards these things quite a while ago, so even though its not the best for anims, though not the worst either, A2 is certainly o.k. even better when these mods/addons are put in the mix..

Most things are workable or workaround-able, just add a little here and there...

[froggyluv 2136]

With a smooth arma there would be no reason to choose between either CQC or long range, they would both be equally polished. Having to choose one or the other limits arma's credability as a military simulator completely.

Please. To have less or no credibility means it has to be way below the standard -tell me, whats the standard? Where is the military simulator that does this so seemlessly because Im waiting with credit card in hand? The fact is, it is EXTREMELY hard to get a game (not simulator) to scale from the huge world macro to the centimeter by centimeter micro of the true CQB. No game I know of does this flawlessly, especially with the potentially massive amounts of AI also needing to navigate this.

BI has improved this alot since OFP so enough with the arrogant dismissive remarks.

[chortles 263]

It would be wonderful if they implement the relation of the fluidness the movements of the soldiers depending of the amount of gear they carry. This way, for example SWAT units in urban enviroment can move very fluid, and you have tradeoffs selecting gear, which also enhances gameplay. This way the game is no dumbed down, and there is a posibility to design better MOUT and CQB missions. But I know this is a dream :-).

"tradeoffs selecting gear" was already announced for Arma 3, it's just that BI chose the drawbacks to be sprint duration/aiming accuracy/recovery time (of aiming accuracy) instead of agility.

[Minoza 11]

Reality is often frustrating. Why can't I just bunnyhop over fences with the gear all I want? Why can't I go from prone to standing in an instant? Why can't I run and shoot people 50m away with my gun? Why can't I knife my way through the whole base without any alarm? This is so frustrating!

Yes they do. And I'm quite happy with how it is still. But hopefully they won't take it too far and it still will be a body simulation and not a floating camera for 'frag-grinding' which is what I guess people mean by 'CQB'

Does it feel similar for you when moving through your own house in real life to the way you move in a house in Arma? Just asking... I mean, there's a whole bunch of factors which affect the way you perceive moving in a game compared to real life, it's not just whether camera is floating or glued to the body. By simulating the whole body, it doesn't mean at all it will feel more life like... Why does camera need to follow 1:1 your in-game body anyways? Because your eyes follow your head? Well, your brain stabilizes image, doesn't it? You can't see all the movement you do, it would make you vomit instantly. Would it make less or more real if you had a bit floaty camera but with full body? I'm leaning towards latter one. Why does collision has to be 1:1 too (even though it's not, what I'm referring to is horrible experience Arma offers when it comes to colliding with indoor walls and door frames)? No, it's not more realistic cause in real life you can easily curve your body to fit, but in a game, it just makes it feel more sluggish... I could go on, but I guess you get my point.

No one moaned about stuff you mentioned, quite contrary, pretty much everyone agrees that movement in Arma simply does not feel life like. Yes, floating camera isn't realistic either, and it probably isn't a solution, but hell, you can't deny that it does feel more life like, more often than Arma's system does.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Minoza

[vampire613 1]

The standerd is a constant strive towards realism otherwise this is no simulator. No games does it flawlessly but most if not all do CQC better than Arma , Get the best of both by fixing the dam movment system and everyone is happy.

[chortles 263]

The standerd is a constant strive towards realism otherwise this is no simulator.

By that standard, this series has never really been a simulator except in the fanboys' minds... and considering a dev's own remark (I believe Vespa's?) on development priorities, it never will be. :lol: