[SP] Lost v 4.0 - Like a mash-up of 'Dogs of War' and 'Manhattan' (without the bugs)!

[anthropoid 1]

Thanks for clarifying Markb50K. Yep, sounds like it is a limit to the vanilla code and following the cautiously limited use of the HC function is the best policy.

Just out of curiousity, is that "someone completely rewrites the AI subroutines they do when you create a new group" something that could be done by a user/modder or something that is in inacessible 'hard coded' aspects of the game? If it is in fact moddable by a player, that sounds to me like a rather juicy long-term goal to get me into AI programming. :icon_mrgreen:

Of course, that will first require that I understand how the AI behaves, which is an excellent excuse to play the game more!

[markb50k 1]

Thanks for clarifying Markb50K. Yep, sounds like it is a limit to the vanilla code and following the cautiously limited use of the HC function is the best policy.

Just out of curiousity, is that "someone completely rewrites the AI subroutines they do when you create a new group" something that could be done by a user/modder or something that is in inacessible 'hard coded' aspects of the game? If it is in fact moddable by a player, that sounds to me like a rather juicy long-term goal to get me into AI programming. :icon_mrgreen:

Of course, that will first require that I understand how the AI behaves, which is an excellent excuse to play the game more!

I think the problem is not a moddable one afaik. It's built into the hcsetgroup command methinks

[anthropoid 1]

Thanks Mark.

Here is something I haven't seen before: I'm right next to white dots, looking straight at a door to a civvie structure, 3m in front of me, but the "Search House" option is not appearing from right-click.

[markb50k 1]

tell me which map and give me the grid coordinates of the house.. there is a small chance that this could happen theoretically, i need to check it in debug mode.

if my theory is correct if you approach the building from another angle it may popup. what i think may be happening is you are pretty close to the same distance between two town markers, and the code is thinking you are in the town that the door doesnt "belong" to so it doesnt detect the door close. just my theory.

[anthropoid 1]

Okay, I'll fire up the game and check the houses that I can remember for certain. However, it happened with a couple different houses and then when I rebooted the game, the problem seemed to have been gone. It could have been what you are saying. Based on the way it behaved, I thought maybe it was a faulty initialization or something like that. The other thing it could be is: now fighting with the mods I have installed (CoWarMod, although with a bunch of stuff turned off). This happened immediately after I installed CoWarMod.

A possibly related issue that I've been noticing now: delayed response on Search House; Drag item; and list population in the Manage AI Groups via the cache.

Search House used to be VERY quick, Drag Item only slightly delayed, and population of the lists in manager screen just slightly more delayed.

Now, Search House can take literally a minute in game time; Drag items is about two to three times as long (maybe 2 or 3 seconds); and the Manager screen is also noticeably slower (sometimes 5 or 7 seconds on the first loadup.

Again, could be the mods I now have running. If you want I can list exactly what mods are running, esp. listing the sub-items in CoWarMod that I have running.

---------- Post added at 11:50 ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 ----------

Actually Mark, I had a couple suggestions for your mod. If they are possible to implement they would sure enhanced the gameplay.

1. (as has already been said) The ability to direct AI in your group to "You: Search that House," or even more general "You: Search Houses in the area."

2. Similarly: ability to direct AI in your group to "You: Load loot into the truck.

It just doesn't make sense that the commander of the geurilla 'army' is out there doing this grunt work ;)

[markb50k 1]

The scripts are being delayed because of too many scripts running in the background. if you are running other mods, they all get scheduled by the engine and take turns being executed. I did some improvements in my new Apocalypse mission, but either way, if you are running other mods you will see a degredation in performance.

As for your ideas..

- ill start looking at easy routines that you can assign groups to do like search houses, collect loot etc. but not sure if i will put them into Lost unless its easy to do. most of my effort is going into Apocalypse.

[anthropoid 1]

Yeah, that is what I figured on the delays :(

I just timed the actual lag on a Search House and it was like 2 minutes in game time (set to 4x speed of course).

I guess I need to figure out which mod is causing it to lag in the gear interactions area and nix it. Shame though, cause my current play through is going so well and epic :) Out of 29 friendies surviving at start, mostly all along the southeast coast, and including one UAZ and one BMP, I managed to get 25 of them safely extracted way up to the northeast coast to safely reorganize and set up a temporary base near Olsha. Three of them got capped when one group got ambushed, but somehow two survived and the enemy never did come back to get them again; they waited their all night till I could pick them up in my CRRC. One was wounded and in the midst of all the complex grouping-ungrouping commands (I used a fishing boat with an AI piloting it to make fewer trips to ferry to the north). An unintentional "Stop" Command to everyone caused him to disembark and then by the time I took command of the boat and got back near him he had drowned.

As for the house that had the problem (maybe, assuming it was mod / lag related) was on Chernarus map grid: 096018. It is the barn near the dam.

In answer to one of my earlier queries that you never really commented on: it does seem that at least some of the enemy AI groups do not patrol incessantly. I had a group of 7 infantry who clearly were staying in the general vicinity of Olsha. I had been frustrated previously when it seemed like all the AI ever did was move around, but I guess I just need to explore more.

I do think that, if you ever make any additional changes to Lost, adding in a certain semi-random quantity of the enemy groups who tend to stay put more often would be cool.

[Rydygier 1309]

Routines for collecting loot by team memebers already exists (personally wrote some in addon form), but not sure, what for this in Lost, if you have an option of automatic teleport all loot from bodies and boxes in 250 meters radius into cargo box? I played Lost with this addon, ad never was neccessary to use it, because of this "magic" box.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Rydygier

[markb50k 1]

@Anthropoid: by code, about half the foot patrols are using a "camppatrol" routine which keeps them around 200m from a central location. The other half are on a "longrangpatrol" routine where they travel far distances. So yeah you just have to keep looking around and you'll see some with different behavior.

@Rydygier: Yeah, that feature IMO negates the need for any "auto-collect" routine. But i think Anthro was looking for something where he could just send off guys and they would start collecting loot. Technically you can do that if you send the cache off with those soldiers, you can tell them to unload the cache, then you can tell them to select the "Auto-Transfer" option. That action is on the box so you can actually order your AI to do it for you. it just takes some managemetn from the user. I think he was looking for something even more hands off. To me that is a lower priority request, well behind some of my other ideas.

[deltafiveone 11]

If anybody is using the @JTD addon or any other similar ongoing type of scripted mods with these types of missions, try to disable it. After a lot of testing, I realized that was my main problem with script lag during these prolonged missions. The more explosions and firefights that occur, expect much more script activation delay. Great add-on, just doesn't work well with these campaign length missions. Just wanted to pass that on for any with the same problem, if any.

@ Anthropoid, I should've posted this here instead of the Apocalypse thread since I was having the same issues with script lag for a lil' while myself. Hope this helps somewhat.

[martancj 1]

Can you recommend what to set up at start of mission for someone who doesnt know what hes doing? Thanks

And can I play it with ACE? Or it is not recommended?

[markb50k 1]

For a beginner, I would select middle range values for all comboboxes in the dialog, so if it says you can select up to 50 vehicle patrols, I would set to around 25 or so. Etc, Etc.

Don't know about ACE. I think some play with it. It shouldnt break it, but it wasnt built with ACE in mind.

[anthropoid 1]

@ Anthropoid, I should've posted this here instead of the Apocalypse thread since I was having the same issues with script lag for a lil' while myself. Hope this helps somewhat.

Hmmm, that is one of the ones I considered to be no problem. Actually, I reduced my CoWarMod setup to an absolute barebones that includes JTD and I've now seen no problems with lag:

FasterHandGrenadeThrowAnimation_Gameplay_C_PvPscene

FasterStepOverAnimation_Gameplay_C_PvPscene

gdtmod_satchel.pbo

jtd_fireandsmoke.pbo

mechinftac.pbo

S_NVG.pbo

@MartanCJ: I would call myself a beginner at ArmA. Love this mod though I suck at it, and I remain frustrated with glitches in the High Command and Group features. So far I have only played on Chernarus map.

To learn the mission (I imagine you'll be restarting a lot as I have) I used the default numbers. The one thing about this is, you'll find quite a few 'abandoned' areas where there is no enemy presence.

If you up the vehicle and Airgroup counts one notch I don't notice much difference at all (on Chernarus, on smaller maps it may make a difference).

Upping the Para groups one notch, I have to say I HAVE seen more Para activity, but that could have just been the luck of where I started (all five groups near Elektrosovodsk).

What I like to do is, basically leave everything default, but up the Infantry by two or even three notches. What this will achieve is: you will encounter more enemy foot patrols, hanging out around villages/towns and also just roaming the countryside. On Chernarus, I have found that the default number of Infantry groups leads to long periods of roaming with no action, although the Search House can still unpredictably lead to engagements.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Anthropoid

[markb50k 1]

Appreciate the guidance you are giving to other users, Anthropoid. You have a good analytical approach to the mission. I would definitely recommend you dePBO'ing the mission to better understand what is going on in it. Normally i wouldnt recommend that since the code is quite involved, but I think it will give you a better sense of everything going on without ruining anything, since everything is randomly generated anyway.

[anthropoid 1]

Simple Question

Apart from 0-8-6-1 "Unit won't move, Try this"

Is there any other way to "reset" my soldiers so that they are responsive to Regroup and/or "Return to Formation" commands?

I have tried, creating a new group with them, and having them rejoin my group, etc. and cannot get my soldiers to behave properly.

BackgroundI'm having a good replay up to day two, except for a problem with my squad mate AI not responding to Reform or Return to Formation commands. Lucky start up where I managed to clear search Olsha and a few other houses nearby and have my total force count up to about 32 soldiers.

Once I get all my starting groups assembled in one area that is remote from towns and I set up my cache, I like to scan through all my soldiers skills and reorg them based on their skills, ranks, and job roles. In order to do this, adding them all to my Group is easiest.

Usually what I will do is sort them so highest accuracy is top to bottom, then shift them around based on rank/job so that I have something like:

#2 Medic

#3 AT specialist

#4 Rifleman (backpack)

#5 Machinegunner

#6 Grenadier

, etc.

If I'm gonna run a larger squad where I have red team on left and green team on right I'll do:

#2 Medic

#3 Medic

#4 AT specialist

#5 AT specialist

#6 Rifleman (backpack)

#7 Rifleman (backpack)

#8 Machinegunner

#9 Machinegunner

#10 Grenadier

#11 Grenadier

Then it is easy to send one team to flank left, and one team to flank right.

After I have _ALL_ of my toons added to my group, I usually take away all their gear then divide it up so that everyone has their radio and watch; the best shooters have the better weapons; and either group leader AI toons and/or soldiers who will be in my own group have the limited numbers of NVGs, compasses, maps, GPS, etc.

Once I've taken away their weapons and given them all back weapons and ammo, they don't seem to realize they have ammo and I usually switch to play each one of them individually to make sure they reload; it could be that if they were in combat they would reload themselves, but haven't tested it yet.

Oh yeah, one more thing, I usually tend to click ALL of my soldiers to be "Playable" whatever that means . . .

In sum, I fiddle a LOT with moving units into and out of New HC groups, merging HC groups, and making HC groups rejoin my group and experimenting with different organizations in my group. I find this all to be one of the funner aspects of the mission . . .

Based on Markb50k's suggestion to NEVER Team Switch, I now avoid using that function. Though as I say, I do switch to control specific soldiers in my own Group (not sure if that should be avoided too?)

Problem in Detail

Following a fairly long session of the above reorganizing have a squad of about 22 soldiers.

I have done 0-8-3-1 to "make player Group leader"

I have also used 0-8-6-

They are all clearly responsive to various commands (Hide, Go Prone) but whenever I send "Regroup" (whenever it is an option, which it strangely is not always) or 1 - 1 Return to Formation they do not respond.

It is almost like they don't know who to reform on. A couple of the soldiers will move a bit (e.g., #2) but mostly they just stay where they are.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Anthropoid
clarity

[markb50k 1]

some thoughts...

- whenever i arm guys i always add there magazines FIRST then their weapon. they dont have issues with loading the weapons then.. or at least i dont seem to see issues with it.

- making them PLAYABLE just makes them as possible team switch choices

- I think REGROUP is enabled when units are in STOP mode, just like STOP is enabled when units are in formation following you..

- my guess would be that your problem is the team switching within members of your squad. From what i've read when you team switch alot, the toon that you switch from is given a hold waypoint, and sometimes they get stuck in this order. The 0-8-6-1 option tries to remove all of there waypoints and gives them a waypoint right at their position so they reach it and immediately come available.

Generally, i dont ever get these issues so I apologize for not being able to give you stuff more specific. I just think its the general bugginess of the AI routines involved in HC and in general.

[anthropoid 1]

Thanks Markb50K, that issue with the waypoints does sound like the issue.

When I have had this issue before, I have somehow, by some weird combination of command sequences, managed to break their gridlock and get them to follow me again. But I cannot seem to replicate that now.

[markb50k 1]

Version 5.4

- fix : safe position script had possibility of endless loop

[anthropoid 1]

Version 5.4

- fix : safe position script had possibility of endless loop

Is that a fix to the "unresponsive to Reform" commands I've noticed from all the Team Switching I've done?

Right atm the new link to the 5.4 DL in first post in thread seems to have a 404 error.

[markb50k 1]

The fix was not for the issue you mentioned. Something different.

If the link is acting up try the armaholic mirror listed beneath it

[anthropoid 1]

Mark you know I love your mission; it is just about the only thing I ever play. But I just gotta tell ya, there is one thing that is just pure annoyance: The way the local area patrols run around like chickens with their heads cut off.

I mean, ffs! The mission is hard enough already. Is it necessary for local area patrols to essentially NEVER stop moving too?

If I ever crack open the .pbo and made some 'self-edits' to your mission, that would be the one thing I'd change: make the AI stay stationary more often, as in for at least minutes at a time, sometimes hours at a time. IMO it is unrealistic and it only makes a mission that is already quite difficult unnecessary even more difficult.

My reason for saying this: I like to play a sniper. I finally found a town with lots of enemy local patrols, and excellent open area for sniping. With the way the walk, then dart, then stop for 3 seconds then turn, then backup, then walk again, then stop but walk backwards (moonwalking evidently), around, and around in endless circles . . . I felt like I was watching a bunch of ballet boys rehearsing swan lake or something.

We all know soldiers do not behave like that. If the war was over, cause "they won" they would for the most part be lounging around passing the time, not moving around as if they were in danger of imminent attack. The irony is, when I shoot one of them: they all stop in their tracks!

I don't know if the way they behave is readily changeable by one flip in the code or if it would somehow involve going in and changing myriad things or on myriad entries, not to mention you have sort of moved on to new stuff. But

[markb50k 1]

its one file that would have to be changed, but before i start changing things i'd like to see how you think they should behave.

i could give them a DISMISS waypoint but most say that has som crazy behavior... or i could set their behavior to CARELESS sometimes...

(if you could put a quick mission that shows some troops acting like you would like, i can look at it and try to code it that way. it wouldnt be all the time, i could have them be a bit more varied in their behavior.

[anthropoid 1]

Let me see what I can do ;)

So I gather all you use is the ingame editor for the behaviors?

[markb50k 1]

No I do it all through waypoints assigned using scripts. But I'm just trying to understand what you are asking for. You don't want them just standing still right? Maybe patrolling in a relaxed state?

[anthropoid 1]

. . . gotta learn how to do scripts . . . been fiddling a bit tonight and still kinda puzzled by the ingame editor functions.

I'm guessing that the local patrols are set to full speed, combat state, and no delays ("timeouts" at each waypoint)? I would say it would be more realistic (and a bit easier to ambush the bad guys) if long distance patrols were set to:

1. limited speed and aware state

2. fewer way points but each waypoint farther apart (so they don't 'run in circles' quite so much)

3. some delays at each waypoint (.75minutes minimum; 1.25 median; 2minutes max, something like that?)

4. Open fire when in contact

For "local patrols." What I'd suggest is the following:

4. 75% of local patrols (3/8ths of all enemy force) basically set to sit still and careless or at least, or at least most of the time sit still. The ideal thing for these guys would be a small number of waypoints 1, 2, (limisted speed, careless, hold fire) then cycle, but with LONG delays at each one (like 30min 45 med 60max). That way they would not be completely motionless but would move infrequently. -> These guys are 'off duty' and just ambient base presence = hanging around chit chatting, performing maintenance, etc.

5. 25% of "local patrols" (1/8th of all enemy forces) do sentry duties: basically walk way points around the settement/base within ~200m and with similar settings as described above for the long distance patrols: limited speed, aware, fewer waypoints but farther apart and with some delays at each way point, open fire on contact.

I think the 50/50 split between local (200m or less) and distant patrols is a good balance. The amount of aircraft and vehicle patrols also seems about right.

The one other thing you might consider is: taking about 10 or 15% of the long-range patrols and set them on _extremely_ long range patrols or 'search and destroy' or something like that.

Naturally a player is likely to setup his/her hideout well off the beaten track. Apart from a sniper lurking around Devil's Castle when I had a hideout there, I have yet to see a remote hideout get scouted out by the Russkies. It would depend on luck, but I'm guessing that, with your current settings, getting sufficiently away from any road or settlemnt is sure to avoid any possible enemy patrols. A small chance that even a very remote base could be detectd would be neat if that could be done.

Okay, so one _other_ thing (sorry if none of this is easy to do or else imposible, just offering ideas): one or so each of the vehicle and air groups should be set as a "reserve." Whenever an engagement with the player exceeds some threshold (e.g., the number in the engagement, or duration of engagement, or Russkie casualties??), this strategic reserve should come screaming in to reinforce.

I know there is some sort of reinforce process but I've only once or twice seen a para group, gunship, or tank respond as reinforcement. That could just be luck though; if you feel like the settings for calling in reinforcements are good, disregard my observations as they are still based on too limited a sample to be certain.