Arma 3 Community Alpha - Announcement!

[maddogx 13]

The human inclination for pointless and irrelevant argument never ceases to amaze me. :(

The man has a point. I doubt that our discussion here will affect the way BI plans to go about running this alpha test. ("Dogs bark but the caravan goes on." etc.)

Whichever way they plan to go is the way it will go.

[old_painless 182]

Yeah, that's the problem in weeks without Champions League football - too much spare time for arguing on the internet

[dmarkwick 261]

People blindly preordering games won't see bugs/broken gameplay either way. If someone rushes to preorder ArmA on day 1 it already means he thinks it's 100% perfect no matter what. You want alpha test to be full of people thinking the same?

This is such a low, moronic viewpoint that, quite honestly, it just about negates any attempt at addressing it. I'm not saying you are a moron, only that you are displaying the viewpoint of one. How do you manage to assess the character of so many people who you KNOW have various interests in different aspects of the game?

You're suggesting that I will pre-order the game but that I will somehow be uninterested in the particle engine and the improvements/non-improvements from the previous engine? That I will be so girly-fanboy about it that I will just gush praises and not do the thing I'd like to do most, which is to try and bend some development time into better particle handling? Your idea is that people will pay money just to play the game early, and that's the only reason?

I'm also not one of those imaginary people who can't tell alpha from full game MadDog and Co are talking about and I want to test ArmA3 and provide feedback. But I won't pay for QA's job.

...But yet everyone here IS one of your imaginary girly-fanboy yes-men who will do nothing in the way of feedback. I think I see how this works.

Beta for BF3 was freely accessible by anyone (provided he got an invite which EA gave away a lot - I had no trouble getting invites for many EA betas - and if you provide good feedback they send you invites without you even asking). I took part in it myself - and I didn't buy the game in the end because I didn't like how it was even worse than BF2.

Guys who preordered the game got access a few days earlier or so iirc.

Well, good for you I suppose. Except I have to wonder why with such a great alpha system the game turned out worse than BF2. Perhaps an unfocussed test group? Just an idea.

I bet all those 3.5 guys who preorder ArmA3 will totally help shape it up before it's too late.

In fact I understand what's going on in this thread. People couldn't care less who will test alpha (since "people not being able to tell alpha from full game" is total bs).

It's about "I want to feel special cuz I play the game and you don't".

Of course you understand, and have demonstrated your understanding by characterising EVERYONE in the same ridiculous way. You suggest that MadDogX description of SOME people is completely wrong, but that your ridiculous assessment of ALL people is correct. I don't understand why you would do this, you actually raise some legitimate points, but also raise completely ridiculous irrelevant and imaginary points. Guess which set drowns out the other set?

In any case, your imaginary arguments won't make the difference in the final decision. Either it will be pre-order, or not, and for most serious ArmA players it won't be a barrier either way.

Edited February 28, 2012 by DMarkwick

[Tonci87 163]

The people who demand a preorder for the Alpha have valid points, but so does the opposing side. I know that I won´t preorder it online, because I prefer to have a box, but I guess I will preorder it on Amazon. So how are you going to make sure that people who just like to have a box don´t get excluded from the alpha?

[maddogx 13]

The people who demand a preorder for the Alpha have valid points, but so does the opposing side. I know that I won´t preorder it online, because I prefer to have a box, but I guess I will preorder it on Amazon. So how are you going to make sure that people who just like to have a box don´t get excluded from the alpha?

Answered:

By working closely with the distributors. Last year I pre-ordered SWTOR on Amazon, for example, and still got my pre-order beta key on time. It's certainly not impossible.

Obviously BIS does not pull the same weight as EA, so this may not be so easy for them, especially when we're talking about an alpha that will come out 4-5 months before release.

[Tonci87 163]

Well frankly, I don´t care as long as I can talk Dwarden or any of the other Devs into giving me access :p

[PuFu 4591]

@DMardwick and MadDogx - there is no point arguing with the lad, he's narrow minded view(s) are beyond salvation anyways. You have no chance trying to make sense with that sort of logic (or in fact the lack of it). I really don't understand why you bother with the poor sod anyhow...

I'm kinda with metalcraze here.

there you have the first problem.

Make it based around keys, so then BIS controls who gets in. Make it limited to the community for all I care. Yeah, that way it's not open to more people, so it limits the feedback responses BIS will get (probably not that much, since it'll probably be mostly the community testing it anyway), but that option is a WHOLE lot better than making a pre-order requirement. That way, BIS, not the community, objectively decides who is allowed to test the Alpha and Beta, and who isn't allowed to test them. And then we avoid community biases for who should be allowed to test them.

Who else would actually pre-order? Some other community i am not aware of besides this one? Plus, i am pretty sure, just like with A2, some more "special" ppl who have invested their own time and effort into previous titles in one form or another will have earlier access again. So, what is the point you are trying to make?

______________

I know that I won´t preorder it online, because I prefer to have a box, but I guess I will preorder it on Amazon. So how are you going to make sure that people who just like to have a box don´t get excluded from the alpha?

In a normal world, ALPHA (a heavy WIP but playable product state) would be a CLOSED one, based on pre-orders (pre-orders, for me anyways, means exactly that and it doesn't limit to a specific source - read sprocket -, so i fail to see why this is brought into discussion over and over again), while the BETA would be public. Neither are there to replace the DEMO version, as some of you might thing for some weird reason.

[esfumato 75]

I would like to be part of the alpha beta of Arma 3.

I have some thought that I would like to see in an Arma game.

[Tonci87 163]

Why not restrict the Alpha to BIS Forum members? That way some potential customers would find the forums.

[maddogx 13]

Why not restrict the Alpha to BIS Forum members? That way some potential customers would find the forums.

Hmm, come to think of it... imagine if they put a feature into the alpha from which you can directly fill out a bug report while in-game. Now further imagine that this bug report is automatically posted to an alpha testing sub-section of these forums.

And finally, consider this thread. ;)

"Testing something about Arma"? Oh yes, I do think so. :D

[antoineflemming 14]

@DMardwick and MadDogx - there is no point arguing with the lad, he's narrow minded view(s) are beyond salvation anyways. You have no chance trying to make sense with that sort of logic (or in fact the lack of it). I really don't understand why you bother with the poor sod anyhow...

there you have the first problem.

Who else would actually pre-order? Some other community i am not aware of besides this one? Plus, i am pretty sure, just like with A2, some more "special" ppl who have invested their own time and effort into previous titles in one form or another will have earlier access again. So, what is the point you are trying to make?

______________

In a normal world, ALPHA (a heavy WIP but playable product state) would be a CLOSED one, based on pre-orders (pre-orders, for me anyways, means exactly that and it doesn't limit to a specific source - read sprocket -, so i fail to see why this is brought into discussion over and over again), while the BETA would be public. Neither are there to replace the DEMO version, as some of you might thing for some weird reason.

The point is that not all of the community is willing to pre-order. I never mentioned another community. Just because you, or MadDogX, is willing to preorder/ wants a pre-order bonus, doesn't mean that every single ArmA fan is willing to do so. And someone's support of, love of, or loyalty to the ArmA series isn't determined by their willingness to pre-order. The point is that a viable option is to close it to the community using keys (can be sent out to e-mails of forum users, not that hard). But that is different from pre-ordering. Clearly. Not everyone pre-orders. You can't assume that most in the community pre-order. That's my point, PuFu, which was really clear. Not sure how I can be more direct than that.

@MadDogX Why'd you quote yourself?

Anyway, simple solution to this discussion: metalcraze, make a poll with two options, one for requiring pre-order for alpha, and one not requiring pre-order for alpha. Then, we'll see what the community prefers. That should put the issue to rest.

[Mr. Charles 22]

Why not restrict the Alpha to BIS Forum members? That way some potential customers would find the forums.

Didn't i mention this already? *Sadpanda

[JSj 12]

The point is that not all of the community is willing to pre-order.

Well, that's their choice then. If so, they will just have to wait for the full game to be released. I don't see how this would be an argument against giving alpha/beta access to those who pre-order.

[antoineflemming 14]

I believe that's the idea anyway, since they are calling it a "community alpha"... If there is a better way to determine who is part of "the community" (which isn't really clearly defined in the first place) and give those people keys, then I'm all for it.

Well, I know the TOH Community Alpha required ArmA 2 OA, but besides that, it was pretty much public for anyone to download. So yeah, while it was a "Community Alpha", it was in public space. No keys or limitations beside software, no preorder requirements, etc. It's been hinted at if not stated that ArmA 3 won't be dependent on ArmA 2 OA because of the major engine differences. So, if it's available just like the TOH Alpha, then it's not really limited to just the community. Yeah, it's meant primarily for the community, but anyone could download and try it. That's my distinction. So, when I say, they could limit it to only the community, maybe even just the official BIS forums, I literally mean limit it, as in no one outside has access to the download file.

[purepassion 22]

Hmm, come to think of it... imagine if they put a feature into the alpha from which you can directly fill out a bug report while in-game. Now further imagine that this bug report is automatically posted to an alpha testing sub-section of these forums.

And finally, consider this thread. ;)

"Testing something about Arma"? Oh yes, I do think so. :D

I have to save this important post!

Initially I had the CIT tracker in my mind (voting feature etc) but that might also work :)

[JSj 12]

So, when I say, they could limit it to only the community, maybe even just the official BIS forums, I literally mean limit it, as in no one outside has access to the download file.

That would be no limit at all, since anyone can register on the forum just to get access to the download files.

[antoineflemming 14]

Well, that's their choice then. If so, they will just have to wait for the full game to be released. I don't see how this would be an argument against giving alpha/beta access to those who pre-order.

Because currently, there has been no mention of a pre-order requirement from BIS. And I honestly don't see a real advantage in implementing a pre-order requirement. It gives the pre-ordering people a pre-order bonus. Great! That doesn't necessarily reflect the amount or the quality of feedback that will be collected. And when you make a pre-order requirement, you do restrict some in the community. One, the biased idea that you only really care for something if you are willing to pay for it is false. If someone doesn't want to pre-order, it doesn't mean that this person only wants a demo. That's a biased assumption. That's the point. The only real advantage of a pre-order requirement is an alpha/beta as a pre-order bonus.

Let me ask this. I didn't test the TOH Community Alpha. Was there something wrong with that? Was it successful or no? Did BIS not receive ample feedback from it? I'm not a TOH player, so I really don't know how it went. Maybe some of you have the answer. I ask this because, most likely, the ArmA 3 Community Alpha will be released in a similar fashion. If there was something wrong with the TOH Community Alpha, then, yes, I can understand BIS having reason to change things. BUT, if there was nothing wrong with the TOH Community Alpha, and it did get ample feedback, WHILE being a public download that anyone could download, then what reason does BIS have to change something that works?

Yeah, metalcraze's assumption that only people who aren't fans can give feedback (that people who love ArmA won't say anything bad) is wrong. But your assumptions that only people who absolutely love ArmA can give feedback (and that no one else will give that feedback) is ALSO wrong. Both are assumptions. And I'd rather BIS make their decision not on some forum-members' assumptions but based on the success or failure of the TOH Community Alpha, because that is the precedent they are following with this Arma 3 Community Alpha.

Edited February 28, 2012 by antoineflemming

[kremator 1064]

The way I see, I am only too happy to try out the community alpha. I hope that my feedback would be useful. I won't hold it against anyone if they don't want to test it. In the end it is about getting a quality product out the door that can reach a wider audience.

[PuFu 4591]

The point is that not all of the community is willing to pre-order. I never mentioned another community. Just because you, or MadDogX, is willing to preorder/ wants a pre-order bonus, doesn't mean that every single ArmA fan is willing to do so.

I don't WANT a pre-order bonus. Matter of fact, i will most likely pre-order the game as soon as it becomes available, but that doesn't mean i will actually have any time for the alpha. Most likely i won't - so it is not about me anyhow.

Still, i stand behind my first affirmation: alpha should be for pre-orders, and beta public.

And someone's support of, love of, or loyalty to the ArmA series isn't determined by their willingness to pre-order.

That is very true. But the ones who are affected the most are the under aged players who rely on mommy and daddy to buy them games...

The point is that a viable option is to close it to the community using keys (can be sent out to e-mails of forum users, not that hard). But that is different from pre-ordering. Clearly. Not everyone pre-orders. You can't assume that most in the community pre-order. That's my point, PuFu, which was really clear. Not sure how I can be more direct than that.

So, when I say, they could limit it to only the community, maybe even just the official BIS forums, I literally mean limit it, as in no one outside has access to the download file.

I hope you are well aware that ArmA community is a lot bigger than these forums (hence my previous question). What you are suggesting is limiting the access to said beta only to the players registered on those boards, and by that limiting it only to the ones able to write/read in english at a certain standard, a standard that is not necesary needed to fill out a bug related ticket. There are a lot of users who lurk those forums from time to time but they never sign up, or the ones that already have an account here but can't be bothered with ppl like metalcraze and the likes. There are a number of reasons for that...

Because currently, there has been no mention of a pre-order requirement from BIS. And I honestly don't see a real advantage in implementing a pre-order requirement. It gives the pre-ordering people a pre-order bonus. Great! That doesn't necessarily reflect the amount or the quality of feedback that will be collected. And when you make a pre-order requirement, you do restrict some in the community. One, the biased idea that you only really care for something if you are willing to pay for it is false.

Just as you do by limiting access to said alpha only for the ones on those boards, but you seen to be fine with the other limitation you are suggesting. And please stop with the bonus thing, will you?

If someone doesn't want to pre-order, it doesn't mean that this person only wants a demo. That's a biased assumption. That's the point.

hmm? what?

Let me ask this. I didn't test the TOH Community Alpha. Was there something wrong with that? Was it successful or no? Did BIS not receive ample feedback from it? I'm not a TOH player, so I really don't know how it went. Maybe some of you have the answer. I ask this because, most likely, the ArmA 3 Community Alpha will be released in a similar fashion. If there was something wrong with the TOH Community Alpha, then, yes, I can understand BIS having reason to change things. BUT, if there was nothing wrong with the TOH Community Alpha, and it did get ample feedback, WHILE being a public download that anyone could download, then what reason does BIS have to change something that works?

I really don't understand why you are so against the pre-orders? Is it a principle thing or something else? Can YOU give me a good reason why YOU can't or are unwilling to pre-order ArmA3? Without pointing finger to someone else or speaking in the name of many (not all of the community is willing to pre-order)? What is holding you back from pre-ordering in general then, not only A3...?

Edited February 28, 2012 by PuFu

[antoineflemming 14]

I don't WANT a pre-order bonus. Matter of fact, i will most likely pre-order the game as soon as it becomes available, but that doesn't mean i will actually have any time for the alpha. Most likely i won't - so it is not about me anyhow.

Still, i stand behind my first affirmation: alpha should be for pre-orders, and beta public.

That is very true. But the ones who are affected the most are the under aged players who rely on mommy and daddy to buy them games...

I hope you are well aware that ArmA community is a lot bigger than these forums (hence my previous question). What you are suggesting is limiting the access to said beta only to the players registered on those boards, and by that limiting it only to the ones able to write/read in english at a certain standard, a standard that is not necesary needed to fill out a bug related ticket. There are a lot of users who lurk those forums from time to time but they never sign up, or the ones that already have an account here but can't be bothered with ppl like metalcraze and the likes. There are a number of reasons for that...

Just as you do by limiting access to said alpha only for the ones on those boards, but you seen to be fine with the other limitation you are suggesting. And please stop with the bonus thing, will you?

hmm? what?

I really don't understand why you are so against the pre-orders? Is it a principle thing or something else? Can YOU give me a good reason why YOU can't or are unwilling to pre-order ArmA3? Without pointing finger to someone else or speaking in the name of many (not all of the community is willing to pre-order)? What is holding you back from pre-ordering in general then, not only A3...?

I said previously that, if BIS does make a pre-order requirement, then, yeah, I'll preorder. I'll preorder anyway. I'm not against pre-ordering. I just know that there are some people who never pre-order, who like to buy only when they know how the end product will be. I do understand that the community is bigger than these forums, and that's why I think just doing what they did with TOH would be good. But, I did not understand that you were pushing for preorder for alpha only. I stand corrected. My point, in the end, is that, I don't think it makes much difference in terms of the feedback that BIS gets from the game. But, if they were to do some pre-order restriction, I would rather them do what you suggested. Alpha pre-order. Beta public. as opposed to both pre-order. or the reverse (alpha public, beta pre-order.)

[metalcraze 290]

Secondly: No. Many (perhaps most) people have no clue what an alpha build is, or beta for that matter. I dare say the majority will simply coo something to the tune of "ooh, early access!", followed by "fuck this buggy shit, I'm OUT!".

You know full well that this is total bs. See BF3.

Or are you saying ArmA target audience is so dumb it won't be able to tell a test version from a finished product? Worse than those CoD/BF kidz?

I don't see what this has to do with anything? You can advocate and push to have the age old bugs fixed right now, and if you so badly want to find out whether they got fixed before you buy the game... wait for the demo?

A demo which comes out after the game's release when it's too late to affect anything? That surely will help.

I am merely arguing in favour of the pre-order method, because I believe it's the only real way to allow anyone who is serious about helping BI shape up the game to contribute, the only pre-requisite being that you have enough faith that BI will get the game into a state that won't make you regret your decision come release.

So if I don't pre-order I am not serious about helping BI? Just an evil greedy egotist who cares only about leeching off Their Majesty Bohemia's work and totally won't provide any feedback?

And what if I pre-order the game twice? Will it mean I'm double serious? Am I a true believer for having 200% faith? Will I get a V.I.P. tag?

Isn't the whole point of shaping up the game in alpha to make it worth buying?

Stop with your "I want to be special, I wanna be V.I.P." - this is very juvenile.

Edited February 28, 2012 by metalcraze

[Tonci87 163]

You know full well that this is total bs. See BF3.

Or are you saying ArmA target audience is so dumb it won't be able to tell a test version from a finished product? Worse than those CoD/BF kidz?

A demo which comes out after the game's release when it's too late to affect anything? That surely will help.

So if I don't pre-order I am not serious about helping BI? Just an evil greedy egotist who cares only about leeching off Their Majesty Bohemia's work and totally won't provide any feedback?

And what if I pre-order the game twice? Will it mean I'm double serious? Am I a true believer for having 200% faith? Will I get a V.I.P. tag?

Isn't the whole point of shaping up the game in alpha to make it worth buying?

Stop with your "I want to be special, I wanna be V.I.P." - this is very juvenile.

Well if I know one thing for sure, then this would be that there are no limits to human stupidity. Especially regarding the average gamer today!

[maddogx 13]

metalcraze, are you honestly insinuating that the majority of BF3 players participated in the pre-launch beta not because they wanted to get access to the game ASAP, but because they wanted to truly test it, fill out bug reports, provide repros etc.? :rolleyes:

If so you are seriously deluded.

I think from now on I'll just preserve my sanity and take Pufu's advice...

[demonized 20]

Wow, 5 -6 pages of preorder or not requirement discussions, the heat is on.

Myke once said in a whole other context, something like this: "if you treat them primitive, they act primitive".

Make the alpha fully public, no strings attached, with clear text that this is alpha and what that means.

For feedback, require BIS forums or Devheaven user account, both are free and can be as anonymous as anyone wants, that will help screen for "some" idiot feedback or spam.

Dont make it complicated, we all love you, even when we hate you :D

[PuFu 4591]

You know full well that this is total bs. See BF3.

Or are you saying ArmA target audience is so dumb it won't be able to tell a test version from a finished product? Worse than those CoD/BF kidz?

no, but if you want my sincere opinion, there are exceptions from any rule. For instance within the members of those boards, you are just such an exception.

A demo which comes out after the game's release when it's too late to affect anything? That surely will help.

A demo is not meant to be a testing product, so why would you even bring it up?

So if I don't pre-order I am not serious about helping BI? Just an evil greedy egotist who cares only about leeching off Their Majesty Bohemia's work and totally won't provide any feedback?

Yes, precisely. The only thing is that it doesn't matter if you pre-order BIS game or not...

And what if I pre-order the game twice? Will it mean I'm double serious? Am I a true believer for having 200% faith? Will I get a V.I.P. tag?

No, i am pretty sure you'll be just like you are today... unfortunately.

I think from now on I'll just preserve my sanity and take Pufu's advice...

guess i would need to take my own advice seriously first...but it's so hard when it comes to certain lads

Edited February 28, 2012 by PuFu