A2/OA/BAF Assets in A3 - Official Add-Ons (discounted for owners of the originals)

[metalcraze 290]

Are you really responding to a statement I plainly described as ridiculous? Immediately followed by a brand new extrapolation-into-the-ridiculous suggestion? That sort of conversational myopia is difficult to respond to appropriately.

But, whatever. Making up scenarios and attributing them to others for the purpose of easing your own argument is a truly lousy way to conduct a discussion. Toodles.

No. The point you don't seem to get is that paying for exactly the same content (which for a previous decade was completely freely available for each new BIS game) multiple times is nothing but a ripoff and I'm surprised multiple people here want to get ripped off so much.

If you want BIS to charge you for a recycled content - by all means - let's do paid patches. After all with each new patch BIS updates old content too.

Edited February 7, 2012 by metalcraze

[PuFu 4591]

nobody wants to be ripped of. some want to have an official port over (that means with all the new features from A3 available (updated content) opposed to the average port where even if the modder has the time and skill, can't modify the content.

I am always surprised to see you with the brake on and talking about breaking community and alike, when you have never produced anything besides the BS posts around those forums...

why does it matter to you if BIS provides older content with updated specs as DLC? You can choose NOT to buy it if you consider it unworty or (more likely) you play the the cheap card? You can still rely on OAC/CAA1 and other mods that do a brilliant job porting content from older products to the newest engine (kju is a masterful lad).

If you want BIS to charge you for a recycled content - by all means - let's do paid patches. After all with each new patch BIS updates old content too.

That is such a fucked up view, and everyone besides you seem to be able to comprehend the difference.

Edited February 7, 2012 by PuFu

[metalcraze 290]

So what new ArmA3 features will be there on, say, Chernarus or Takistan? What new ArmA3 features will there be for BAF or OA soldiers? I read you and other bros repeating "ArmA3 standards" but what are these mythical "ArmA3 standards"?

[dunedain 48]

I kinda agree with him ... I don't really undestand why people always want the old content being ported and even being charged for it. I never understood fanboyism either though.

I'ld rather see BIS creating new content or improving their engine to the point old assets become obsolete.

[PuFu 4591]

So what new ArmA3 features will be there on, say, Chernarus or Takistan? What new ArmA3 features will there be for BAF or OA soldiers? I read you and other bros repeating "ArmA3 standards" but what are these mythical "ArmA3 standards"?

A first standard for A3 will be the DX version that it will be using. The next will be a flight model closer to tkoh than A2 (that requires aditional configs values in another file format than cpp/hpp).

I don't now what features A3 will have in terms of terrain, but even if tesselation and the likes are not in, i'll just list the ones that i feel they'll need updated:

* rvmats to fit with the new shaders (it is safe to assume there will be new shaders introduced with switching from dx10 to dx11).

* maps and textures (improved parralax and bump).

* building models, as well as tree ones.

plus, this thread is about assets in general, not only terrain. I don't even want to list here the amount of changes that will be needed to port something created for A2 in A3 for instance, while taking into account the physix system, the new damage model, the proxy system as well as the possible new anims and flight model.

So it is safe to say if BIS wants to bring content from older games in A3, they'll have some work to do on those. Just check the amount of threads asking about A2 content being updated to OA standards: did it happen?no. will it happen?no. will i pay for such a pack?yes. Am i the only one who would?no.

By no mean i am saying that BIS will do it btw. On the contrary, i am pretty sure they won't take on such a task (porting the entire content over, some individual stuff might happen though). BUT, if they do take that path, I am certain it won't be for free. And that is fine with me.

I kinda agree with him ... I don't really undestand why people always want the old content being ported and even being charged for it.

There is a HUGE difference between wanting something, and understanding the reasons for certain people wanting that very thing in a DLC format. I don't want it, nor actually need it. But i do understand why some would prefer (especially in the current MP situation) more official content.

I never understood fanboyism either though.

moot point

I'ld rather see BIS creating new content or improving their engine to the point old assets become obsolete.

LOL...What i understand when i say asset is models and textures. Those have very little to do if taken individually with the engine (one is a bunch of verts and the other a bunch of pixels), and can be used in almost any engine if they are set up for that particular engine.

And i am pretty sure the old assets (especially the ones from A2/OA will become "passed out" from a technical point of view in about 5 years or more).

Edited February 7, 2012 by PuFu

[minimalaco 30]

Saranhi !!

[Craig_VG 20]

Desert Island!!!! FTW!!!!

[NoRailgunner 0]

Guess BIS will only upgrade/update/fix&tune A2OA stuff they need for A3.

IIRC we had a similar discussions/threads with A1/A2/OA announcement.

In the end BIS has to develop and produce games/addons to make profit. Wasting time and energy on old/obsolete stuff just for a few "potential" buyer is a bit too risky. Risking time, energy + money for something that fits into A3 world and further developments is a bit more pleasant.

[dmarkwick 261]

No. The point you don't seem to get is that paying for exactly the same content (which for a previous decade was completely freely available for each new BIS game) multiple times is nothing but a ripoff and I'm surprised multiple people here want to get ripped off so much.

I already bought several versions of ArmA2/OA, so why did I do that? And your assertion that for a decade all previous content was available for free in all future BIS releases boils down to..... ArmA1 content into ArmA2. And let me ask this: was it as simple as simply copying over the file(s)? No, not by a long way. What I am saying is that I would be willing, for a nominal fee, to pay for an accountable, available-from-day-one, Chernarus port. Small fee, goes directly to BIS, content is assured. And no-one presses a gun to my head to make me, I make a grown-up decision.

If you want BIS to charge you for a recycled content - by all means - let's do paid patches. After all with each new patch BIS updates old content too.

I reckon you can shove that bleat by now yes? That is entirely your own idea, no-one else's, you introduced it.

---------- Post added at 22:54 ---------- Previous post was at 22:51 ----------

So what new ArmA3 features will be there on, say, Chernarus or Takistan? What new ArmA3 features will there be for BAF or OA soldiers? I read you and other bros repeating "ArmA3 standards" but what are these mythical "ArmA3 standards"?

Well we don't know do we? Just like you don't know. But I do remember Sahrani was not a simple copy & paste job.

[Defunkt 431]

You pay $1500 for a PC to run it, $150 on the prior and current titles but you won't spend $15 to enjoy it all in a seamless, canonical package? Silly. That last $15 will double the possibilities in A3 right from day one and leverage the series' history to the advantage of both BIS and their customers.

[metalcraze 290]

A first standard for A3 will be the DX version that it will be using.

Which improves Takistan/Chernarus how exactly?

New DX version is useless from an end-user standpoint since it makes zero visual difference whatsoever.

The next will be a flight model closer to tkoh than A2 (that requires aditional configs values in another file format than cpp/hpp).

Which improves everything but those 3-4 choppers present in ArmA2 how exactly?

rvmats to fit with the new shaders (it is safe to assume there will be new shaders introduced with switching from dx10 to dx11).

* maps and textures (improved parralax and bump).

* building models, as well as tree ones.

And why would they update trees or buildings? Or even textures? And how exactly will they update them?

I don't even want to list here the amount of changes that will be needed to port something created for A2 in A3 for instance, while taking into account the physix system, the new damage model, the proxy system as well as the possible new anims and flight model.

Of course you don't. Because you can't.

I can safely bet that improvements over what we have in ArmA2 will be nil when it comes to maps (and game videos prove this) and rest isn't even in the engine yet.

So apart from some config/model tweaks for choppers/vehicles/soldiers - improvements will be nil. Modders can do it. Better donate to them instead.

I already bought several versions of ArmA2/OA, so why did I do that? And your assertion that for a decade all previous content was available for free in all future BIS releases boils down to..... ArmA1 content into ArmA2.

OFP Elite -> ArmA1 through CWR

OFP -> ArmA2 through CWR2

ArmA1 -> ArmA2

ArmA2 -> Take On Helicopters.

Enough?

And let me ask this: was it as simple as simply copying over the file(s)? No, not by a long way. What I am saying is that I would be willing, for a nominal fee, to pay for an accountable, available-from-day-one, Chernarus port. Small fee, goes directly to BIS, content is assured. And no-one presses a gun to my head to make me, I make a grown-up decision.

What if I want Chernarus there for free because I've already paid BIS for it?

So I will be forced to pay BIS again to have it in MP games regardless since servers always go for official stuff first.

Why can't you think in a more complex way?

It isn't an option to pay for it or not. You are either forced to pay for it - or skip missions on servers.

Edited February 7, 2012 by metalcraze

[gammadust 12]

That last $15 will double the possibilities in A3 right from day one and leverage the series' history to the advantage of both BIS and their customers.

This pretty much!

I surely fit in that category which would appreciate the contemporary feel along with the new engine. Knowing that the porting would require genuine effort on BIS part, being it optional, for the "right price" sooner rather than later after realease i probably would just jump in. This is from one generaly very wallet tight customer, something only balanced by the very good relation BIS nurtures this community with.

Then again, by the time A3 releases, contemporary will be A3 prospect, given the real world pace of events.

[dmarkwick 261]

Of course you don't. Because you can't.

I can safely bet that improvements over what we have in ArmA2 will be nil when it comes to maps (and game videos prove this) and rest isn't even in the engine yet.

And neither can you :) regardless of what you think you've seen in videos.

What if I want Chernarus there for free because I've already paid BIS for it?

You play it in ArmA2, the engine it's designed for.

So I will be forced to pay BIS again to have it in MP games regardless since servers always go for official stuff first.

Why can't you think in a more complex way?

It isn't an option to pay for it or not. You are either forced to pay for it - or skip missions on servers.

Of course it's an option. Are you some sort of fanatic? Do you make it your mission to play every single mission on every single server? You play on servers you have the stuff for, it's always been like that. You've made a lot of assumptions & extrapolated a lot of nonsensical conclusions. All because you don't wish to pay BIS a small amount for their time in securing their greatest map to date into their new game engine?

Think of it as paying for the guaranteed conversion process, not the map you bought 4 years ago and haven't finished sucking all the value out of yet.

Anyway, it ain't going to happen, so I guess you can hang on to your dollar. Send it to the modder who does port it.

Edited February 8, 2012 by DMarkwick

[nkenny 1051]

When ARMA3 releases, ARMA2 content will be three to four years old. Don't think of it as repurchasing, think of it as servicing or maintenance. Should you wish to, you can still run it on the scruffy old standards.

I would gladly pay $15. I doubt it will happen because of the massive amount of work involved, and the simple fact that the setting of ARMA3 is so far removed from its prequels.

-k

[metalcraze 290]

And neither can you :) regardless of what you think you've seen in videos.

Actually I can. Videos are shown exactly to demonstate how everything in the game works. Lemnos doesn't look any different from any other ArmA2 maps and BIS still uses old system for dropping trees with explosions and as they said - same scripted building damage from ArmA2 and not anything physX based.

You play it in ArmA2, the engine it's designed for.

So why is it playable in ToH? It wasn't designed for that clearly new engine.

Of course it's an option. Are you some sort of fanatic? Do you make it your mission to play every single mission on every single server? You play on servers you have the stuff for, it's always been like that. You've made a lot of assumptions & extrapolated a lot of nonsensical conclusions.

If someone makes a mission with a paid-for content, that you also want to buy at a price of half of an expansion - it easily stops a lot of people from playing since unlike mods it can't be just downloaded. Not mentioning that the content in question is just a recycled content of a poorer quality (mostly textures) from an older game. Don't think that only I won't "get it".

Now if BIS redid all soldier textures, added polygonal detail, remodeled all lower-quality arma1 weapons that Arma2 vanilla is full of, added a new forest-style island = with all of it being called an expansion - my money would be there in no time.

All because you don't wish to pay BIS a small amount for their time in securing their greatest map to date into their new game engine?

I don't want to pay BIS for something I already paid for once considering that it will just get ported and will be the exactly same map. BIS will never remodel and retexture anything on it because that's too much work. They don't even want to fix 2 years old model bugs.

I however will gladly pay for a new content. And especially new expansion. Instead of BIS wasting resources on recycling stuff.

Think of it as paying for the guaranteed conversion process, not the map you bought 4 years ago and haven't finished sucking all the value out of yet.

It will happen regardless. As you've said - Chernarus is quite popular and Dwarden pretty much hinted at community porting being green-lit.

Anyway, it ain't going to happen, so I guess you can hang on to your dollar. Send it to the modder who does port it.

Sure.

Edited February 8, 2012 by metalcraze

[stupidwhitekid75 11]

I can't speak for the islands necessarily but from what I understand (not sure if this is entirely confirmed but it seemed that way to me) with A3 each unit has some sort of base model, with a uniform, helmet, and vest all as separate items. To get a better idea think all the way back to this picture: http://www.zing.cz/screenshoty/2625/arma-3/image-43908

I only have a little knowledge of how each unit is laid out with A2, but it seems that by having this very basic character class it would be much easier to create new units as your not necessarily worrying about the entire model but more individual parts instead. So wouldn't it be safe to say that instead of attempting to port all the units over, which would probably be a ton of work, it would just be much easier if BI either

A) creates new sets of camo patterns/uniforms to use with the new units

or

B) uses the ones they already made in A2/OA/BAF

and then spends their main focus on designing new vests/backpacks/helmets?

I mean if they were to make a new Marine Corps faction for example, start with creating the base MARPAT uniform, and then within the squad you can be very simple and create a universal vest for Squad Leader/Fire Team Leader/Rifleman/Designated Marksman/AT Specialist/X Assistant/Medic and another for Automatic Rifleman/Machine Gunner based off of the current RL versions. Then all you need is a new helmet also based off of the RL version and your done, aside from packing them all up.

In short, the only new items they would be creating are the uniform, two different vests, and a helmet. The only part I am unsure about is how one would go about adding uniforms/helmets/vests to new units, but I would assume its something just added into the config. So once the new config is written and packed up, there you have the new USMC faction in A3 using A3 units. I believe the same would work as far as making new weapons even too, if you remember this particular picture: http://www.zing.cz/screenshoty/2625/arma-3/image-43914

It shows a base weapon with multiple attachments. So once again, they would create a new base model for the M16A4, then create an ACOG, Red Dot, and Holographic sight and probably the M203 grenade launcher. The flashlight, suppressor and IR laser are already in game so no real need for anything new there.

It may be much more complicated than that of course, but to me as of now it doesn't seem so. :)

[Craig_VG 20]

My take on all this:

I don't really care whether it is in ArmA 3 or not. If it is in A3, I won't be offended if they make us pay for it. Obviously I would prefer it be free, but I would totally understand if BIS wanted to make some more money, and Chernarus/Takistan would be worth any price for sure. I love the maps.

About the units/Vehicles...

A much larger task for BIS to port over to A3, and upgraded or not, they will probably make us pay for them to be included.

I won't tell BIS what to do, but I say leave the units out. Put the maps in. I don't want any time taken away from A3 development to upgrade A2 content, unless they can spare the time.

-Craig

[BobcatBob 10]

AFAIK... One thing to point out for realistic weapons and gear is that unlike previous titles (Thanks to the new "modern" class system seperating different gear pieces from the actual model itself, it looks like), instead of making a WHOLE PERSON w/ proper helmets/vetsts/camo/pants. You probably just need to make the individual gear peices and then classify them properly as "Headgear" and the like. So I model say, 5 seperate authentic gear peices to allow for say current U.S marine gear. Then in the editor I simply dress any of the BI character models with the seperate gear I just made. I think this process becomes a whole lot easier...

[dunedain 48]

What i understand when i say asset is models and textures. Those have very little to do if taken individually with the engine (one is a bunch of verts and the other a bunch of pixels), and can be used in almost any engine if they are set up for that particular engine.

And i am pretty sure the old assets (especially the ones from A2/OA will become "passed out" from a technical point of view in about 5 years or more).

I was thinking of the animations, from what I understood so far it's an area of the engine that is going to be upgraded in Arma III "weapon handling, reloading, interaction with vehicles ect..". I don't see the point of adding ArmaCO weaponery while they may not have the same standards of quality the new content will have. And I'm not strickly speaking of textures and models, in case you didn't understand.

You said it yourself, they'ld have to rework those assets. My point being I won't buy a DLC made of recycled content, people who like the game without being blind won't either.

[Cripsis 10]

I'd like a map similar to Chernarus, with all houses and buildings enterable, and I'm willing to pay handsomely for it!

[PuFu 4591]

it does work like that i am afraid, since models need to be weighted (rigged on a skeleton).

[Blackfox34 14]

I definitely be for this.

People say well mod this and mod that.

90% of the mods released are nowhere near the quality of work BIS releases. I rather have it pay to be done right and look better and be 100% functional in a newer game than rely on a modder to do it. Sure there are some very capable modders in this community, however, it is not their job to make stuff for this game.

For BIS, it's there job. You don't have the long waiting periods for a mod to be released just to find out it's a piece of shit or wait 21/2 years for a mod that comes out just before ARMA 4.

[rubberkite 19]

I definitely be for this.

People say well mod this and mod that.

90% of the mods released are nowhere near the quality of work BIS releases. I rather have it pay to be done right and look better and be 100% functional in a newer game than rely on a modder to do it. Sure there are some very capable modders in this community, however, it is not their job to make stuff for this game.

For BIS, it's there job. You don't have the long waiting periods for a mod to be released just to find out it's a piece of shit or wait 21/2 years for a mod that comes out just before ARMA 4.

I agree with you 200%

mod is a hobby product, with discontinued support and long time of development is a really nice bonus but it's an "extra" ... people have different amount of free time during the life and main goal can change and who base it's gaming experience on that can't be sure of updated development over time over each beta.. etc...

more content (DLC) mean more fragmentation of comunity ? so also more gamemode ( different mission ), when you have a toolbox sandbox or wathever you want to call this "game". the solution is to limit mission, map etc. and create a BF clone ?

People claim for everythings without use the brain... give an extra fee for good quality porting doesn't mean pay for stuff that you already own, simply because u can't use with new engine / features. But explain what should be obvious is really a waste of time.

Support a "small" developer with some extra DLC is a great things and with ArmA and Mod and all the continuos development you will save a lot of money, because you don't need the supercool graphics triple AAA game for KIDS. (I played Bf3 for 25 min), every arma instead I played for years...

A big dream to have all islands and unit from OFP to A3 with updated engine... it's really nice to play in a place that you know and like with updated graphics and features....

but this will remain only a DREAM...

We will play on the space with arma 5 ... so all kids that are more than "senior gamer" will be happy, and when bis will find a gamemode where all wins... you will see finally all the server full

sorry!

Rubber

[katipo66 94]

A2 units and possibily Chernarus In A3, count me in... I'd happily miss out on a couple of beers for that!

[maddogx 13]

Considering that BIS do not want people using A2/OA content in TOH, I think it's likely that they will take the same stance regarding Arma3. Perhaps they'll change their minds before release, but I wouldn't count on it.