SOPA - Internet as we know it about to be gone?

[Serclaes 0]

Yeah in Germany we have the GEMA and GEZ to get people rid of their money......

I'm sorry but I never understand why people rant about GEZ. The public TV and radio stations have a huge net of correspondants (you know people actually gathering info rather than just skmming of AP, Reuters etc) throughout the world, no advertising after 2000, HD quality and some of the best program. Oh and everything can be watched online (just thanks to those private morons only a week or so).

And at what cost? No where near private rates. And rather GEZ than additional taxes.

Concerning ACTA, here's what a lawyer has to blog about it (german sorry):http://www.internet-law.de/2012/02/ist-die-acta-hysterie-berechtigt.html

tl;dr much of that ACTA BS has been law in germany for 10 years...

[walker 0]

Hi all

In reply to Serclaes: the difference is that ACTA is a treaty which means you can be extradited to face crimes with higher punishment regimes than exist in your country. So in the case of the young student from the UK where it is not even illegal to give a link to a site where one may download a file that is considered copyright in another jurisdiction but also that the material may not even be considered copyright in the UK. And the court is not even allowed to consider whether the case is one that could be answered in the local jurisdiction. All those prosecuting have to prove is that you "appear", note that word, to have case to answer in a foreign jurisdiction.

Further the company, and it will be a company that winds up the local police to go after foreign evil doers, can shop around for the most advantageous jurisdiction from which to launch the case ie one where the defendants rights and legal defenses are lowest where their costs are highest and where the tendency to prosecute and convict foreign defendants is highest, and the punishments are the most severe.

And in the case of Kim Dotcom he has to stay in jail the whole time he is fighting the case. Even if in the end he proves himself innocent and in the mean time the companys that brought the action, because he was out competing them at providing publishing services to artists, hense why so many artists supported him, have destroyed their successful competitor and he has lost his business because the case will last years. Where those less competitive companies will be stealing his business.

Remember this company was 4% of internet traffic. With millions of legal paying customers using it to store and distribute their files. Of course the thing they wanted to stop was the MegaBox which was due out this month.

Kind regards walker

Edited February 9, 2012 by walker
clarity and grammar

[Serclaes 0]

Hmm I thought this was possible with any crime? I mean one commits a crime in say france and lives in germany, germany would have to obey that warrant.

Iirc there was recently a case where german authorities put down some websites solely on a foreign warrant.

But this jurisdiction shopping could be bothersome.

[vilas 473]

I'm sorry but I never understand why people rant about GEZ.

(...)

it depends of country, in one country you pay for high-culture and iq-boosting broadcast

in other countries you must pay for "sons and daughters of politicians working in such institutions + stupid celebrites" who get 10 or 20 times bigger salary than you from your taxes

i don't care how much commercial tv station pays to weather forecast showman, but as long as it is from my taxes, i do care

in so called public media, which law force me to pay

in Germany public TV has better program and no commercials ? good, in PL not, in PL there are commercials and broadcast contains a lot of stupid TV series/sitcoms and a lot of "directors" and "clerks" and "showmen"

difference between tax-media and commercial media is not that big, some guys earn 10,20,50 times more than you (but you pay tax for them) and management is set by politicians,

from my taxes they are showing boring series "about love" for stupid women sitting every day since1254-part to 4352-part "Christopher told that he loves Ann, but Ann loves Robert, but Robert loves Katherine" (previously there were educational and scientific programs.. in 80s and early 90s )

so i am ranting at my Polish GEZ cause i don't want to be taxed for "L like Love" series quasi-actors payed 20 times more than qualified engineer , most of independent jounalists were fired and the ones who left are politically-correct,

commercial stations live from commercial breaks and it is their problem how much they pay (unless they are not getting money from taxes, like ITI gets for football stadion, nevermind)

but many EU countries have their GEZs

Edited February 9, 2012 by vilas

[Tonci87 163]

it depends of country, in one country you pay for high-culture and iq-boosting broadcast

in other countries you must pay for "sons and daughters of politicians working in such institutions + stupid celebrites" who get 10 or 20 times bigger salary than you from your taxes

i don't care how much commercial tv station pays to weather forecast showman, but as long as it is from my taxes, i do care

in so called public media, which law force me to pay

in Germany public TV has better program and no commercials ? good, in PL not, in PL there are commercials and broadcast contains a lot of stupid TV series/sitcoms and a lot of "directors" and "clerks" and "showmen"

difference between tax-media and commercial media is not that big, some guys earn 10,20,50 times more than you (but you pay tax for them) and management is set by politicians,

from my taxes they are showing boring series "about love" for stupid women sitting every day since1254-part to 4352-part "Christopher told that he loves Ann, but Ann loves Robert, but Robert loves Katherine" (previously there were educational and scientific programs.. in 80s and early 90s )

so i am ranting at my Polish GEZ cause i don't want to be taxed for "L like Love" series quasi-actors payed 20 times more than qualified engineer , most of independent jounalists were fired and the ones who left are politically-correct,

commercial stations live from commercial breaks and it is their problem how much they pay (unless they are not getting money from taxes, like ITI gets for football stadion, nevermind)

but many EU countries have their GEZs

The sitcoms are indeed a pain in the ass, but I respect that some people like them.

The bigger problem is that they show a movie every sunday evening that is like those sitcoms. And because those movies always have to play in romantic location they film them in afrika, australia or places like that. That is a serious waste of money (the channel is the producer; GEZ/tax Money). I´m not happy about paying those celebs regular vacations

[topas 1]

There's a chart today on one of the sites showing how much our Polish 'celebrities' earn and how much are they being paid for an hour of being on the set of a sitcom. The top-ranking guy gets a rough 3000EUR. It is in fact more than ten times what a usual guy gets, working on a demanding post in the public sector gets for a month. The difference is - the latter's work demands profiled education, experience, knowledge of foreign languages and specialized training - the actors need to...hmm... memorize a few lines of badly written text?

Calling them actors is too much too. 30, 40 years ago our actors needed to be graduates of the National Film School where they were tought to be versatile. They knew comedy, drama, singing, dancing, fencing, horse-riding, you name it.

Nowadays TV and coloured magazines expect us to pee in our pants and adore some idiot-"actors" just because they guest-star in a dancing or singing show... (just to witness them fail at it big time)... Most of those people are 'celebrities' because they attend parties, fashion shows, promote cosmetics and car manufacturers (as "brand ambassadors") and are mostly known for this activity (plus their intimate/sex/family life "secrets" they sell to whoever gives a higher price, rather than their TV, movie appearances. Basically, what are they known for the most? For being known....

I do agree with Vilas here, in the past you could watch something called 'edu-TV' in the afternoon. Language courses, drawing/painting lessons combined with lectures on culture, architecture, history.. Youth programs and quizzes were based on and tested knowledge - now all of it is gone and quiz shows require the participants to do silly things (throwing pies, eating worms, bungee jumps, climbing and other activities from the 'I dare you to:' category). Polish edition of the Weakest Link did not last long, "1of10" (which is a similar quiz testing general knowledge) has been moved in a schedule, 'Wielka Gra' (High Stakes) which was the longest lasting quiz in the Polish TV (1962-2006) was canceled - too intelligent for a common viewer (it was all about being an Alpha and Omega in a specific field, mostly it was testing knowledge of lifetime achievements of composers, writers etc.), plus, no boobs and vulgarity. It clearly had no chance in today's TV. A local Family Feud mutant is still there though... same as 'Name the tune'....Both seems to be the most 'intellectually challenging' show on the TV now...which is sad.

Edited February 9, 2012 by topas

[vilas 473]

and it is of course all from our tax-like money, not from commercial activity, but from "intellectual property alliances" and "GEZs"

private enterprise can do whatever he wants, but hell, not tax-funded, but all those alliances and companies linked with "intellectual property" in our country are just money-eaters,

giving them more support by kinds of law like ACTA make situation even worse

some fat guys, who recorded one album wants to live forever from song from 70s

while engineer, contructor who made good furniture, good warehouse, good car, good driller, good freezer - will not live forever from "his one contract"

"musicians" recording songs in communism want to live forever from tantiems and my taxes

why the hell engineer who made for example drilling machine, washing machine can't live from tantiems on and on and on for 50 years ???

so Serclaes do you think that GEZs in other countries are worthy to leave them ? according to law when you make party in your own home, you must pay too

[rangerpl 13]

vilas, the difference between a musician and a carpenter is that a musician's work can be copied infinitely, for free. Meanwhile, a carpenter has to invest in the materials for a new table if he wants to sell another one.

Intellectual property rights should be respected. We just shouldn't be sending people to prison and controlling the internet to do it. So yes, that "fat guy from the 70s" has the right to demand money for his work, after all it is his. On the other hand, he shouldn't be loading his CDs with DRM and charging people 30 dollars a pop.

I do not support SOPA or ACTA, but there need to be some rules for the use of intellectual property.

Edited February 9, 2012 by RangerPL

[st_dux 26]

vilas, the difference between a musician and a carpenter is that a musician's work can be copied infinitely, for free. Meanwhile, a carpenter has to invest in the materials for a new table if he wants to sell another one.

Vilas is talking about the engineer (i.e., the person who made the design), not the carpenter. The engineer's work is just as much "intellectual property" as the musician's, yet for some arbitrary reason patents only last a few years while copyright lasts nearly a lifetime. In my opinion, neither should exist at all, and non-scarce resources with a marginal production cost of zero (this includes all ideas) should be free.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Vilas is talking about the engineer (i.e., the person who made the design), not the carpenter. The engineer's work is just as much "intellectual property" as the musician's, yet for some arbitrary reason patents only last a few years while copyright lasts nearly a lifetime. In my opinion, neither should exist at all, and non-scarce resources with a marginal production cost of zero (this includes all ideas) should be free.

You don't like Schumpeter that much, don't you ?

[vilas 473]

who would like economist that praise monopolisation and olygopoly ? only "corporation" managers

olygopolisation is the same hurt to free market as communism, with the only difference , that in communism "society" gets something and in "world of corporations" management only gets profits,

i do not want to live in world in which i could only choose between Pepsi or CocaCola products or only between Sony and Nikon or only between one party or second party, cause every time in oligopoly situation there are "price agreement between 2 companies" and no chance for third or fourth manufacturer

this is world which is shaping since some years, some people on west think (mistaken) that it is still "free market" and it is different than "communism"

Schumpeter would support ACTA for sure, let 2 or 3 world companies have all patents pending across the globe, yeaaa , freedom of choice

[st_dux 26]

You don't like Schumpeter that much, don't you ?

Schumpeter said that technological advances will naturally lead to temporary monopolies and that this is economically desirable; on this point, I agree. He never addressed intellectual property rights, so it is difficult to say what his stance would be on them now, but the stance of the current Austrian School economists is for the most part that intellectual property is an illegitimate form of property that undermines real property.

@vilas:

Monopolization only hurts the economy when it is coercive, i.e., when the government creates a monopoly through law. Natural monopolies are rarely maintained for very long, and when they are, it is always the result of a particularly efficient producer that can provide quality goods at a price much lower than any potential competition, which is good for consumers. As for price fixing schemes, this makes it easier for new competition to enter the market (as prices are being kept artificially high), not more difficult, and this is one reason why such arrangements are almost always guaranteed to fall apart quickly.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Schumpeter said that technological advances will naturally lead to temporary monopolies and that this is economically desirable; on this point, I agree. He never addressed intellectual property rights, so it is difficult to say what his stance would be on them now, but the stance of the current Austrian School economists is for the most part that intellectual property is an illegitimate form of property that undermines real property.

Temporary monopolies exist thanks to IP and patents protections, thus he did express himself on the subject. The current Austrian school is a very heterodox school and of course as such, contrary to what some US politicians (or forum posters here) would like us to believe, their point of views on economic subjects are extremely minoritary among worldwide economists.

[st_dux 26]

Temporary monopolies exist thanks to IP and patents protections, thus he did express himself on the subject.

This is not entirely correct. A natural temporary monopoly will arise due to technological innovation anyway -- it will take some time for potential competitors to reverse engineer whatever has been invented and recreate it effectively -- and that is what Schumpeter was referring to. It is true that patent/IP law will enhance this monopoly by making it legally binding and therefore coercive for an arbitrary period of time, but as far as I am aware, Schumpeter never commented on this directly, and I doubt he would support IP if he were around today (though I have no way of knowing this, of course).

As for the Austrian School being heterodox, so what? Heliocentric theory was heterodox for a long time, too.

[ProfTournesol 956]

This is not entirely correct. A natural temporary monopoly will arise due to technological innovation anyway -- it will take some time for potential competitors to reverse engineer whatever has been invented and recreate it effectively -- and that is what Schumpeter was referring to. It is true that patent/IP law will enhance this monopoly by making it legally binding and therefore coercive for an arbitrary period of time, but as far as I am aware, Schumpeter never commented on this directly, and I doubt he would support IP if he were around today (though I have no way of knowing this, of course).

I was just saying that patents are natural and widely acknowledged ways of protecting IP, even if sometimes ineffective. Innovation per se is obviously another way, secrecy too.

As for the Austrian School being heterodox, so what? Heliocentric theory was heterodox for a long time, too.

I was saying this because i only see those heterodox ideas on this forum (which are obviously very popular on your side of the ocean), as if modern economics was (were ?) mainly built around those ideas. But i understand that heterodox politicians love heterodox ideas, they are much more fun and easy to explain than more mainstream ones.

[st_dux 26]

I was saying this because i only see those heterodox ideas on this forum (which are obviously very popular on your side of the ocean), as if modern economics was (were ?) mainly built around those ideas.

Austrian School economics have become much more popular over here within the last ten years (there was a particularly big spike in interest in 2008 when it became apparent that the Austrians had accurately predicted the housing crisis), but it is still far from mainstream. Mainstream American economics is basically your standard neoclassical fare with a touch of Keynesianism thrown in, which, if I'm not mistaken, is basically how it is over in Western Europe as well. That said, I think it's fair to say that the influence of the Austrians has played an important role in shaping modern economics, especially during the post-war years. In my view, Austrian School economics is really the only school of economic though out there that is always logically consistent and intellectually honest.

[mrcash2009 0]

CISPA = SOPA 2.0?

j6BKU9mCnn0

Could be classed as cross posting ref the face-book thread, apologies if so.

[Tonci87 163]

No CISPA=SOPA2.0+corporate interest

We are so fucked this time....

[PELHAM 10]

Anyone actually read it yet, instead of getting your info from the usual dumbed down, inaccurate video?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyber_Intelligence_Sharing_and_Protection_Act

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.3523:

It doesn't look anything like SOPA to me - it looks like law relating to information sharing regarding weaknesses in cyber security:

" Relevant provisions were also clarified to "focus on the fact that the bill is designed to protect against unauthorized access to networks or systems, including unauthorized access aimed at stealing private or government information."

Edited April 18, 2012 by PELHAM

[mrcash2009 0]

Well the idea is to post varying takes on the matter, as things in the past have been re packaged as a 2.0 good cop version, so its also worthy seeing all sided to the argument and not just the official stance, which on anything will be the spokesperson version of the front end. People are twitchy and rightly so, it did have "?" in the title also.

As I posted in the facebook thread, they have endorsed this measure, as for me personally whenever Facebook start promoting it, its time to really check it out.

I see your right in on the dumb aspect again, overly critical is worth it especially when a law is added to the net that can be "stretched". Posting one video to highlight the concern and knowing people have a brain to check further is how I roll, I dont assume people are too thick to check out both sides, unlike yourself it seems.

Intellectual property is the big one in terms of interpretation when enforced.

Edited April 18, 2012 by mrcash2009

[batto 17]

information sharing regarding weaknesses in cyber security:

If you actually read the bill (I bet you didn't) maybe you'll stop with this politically correct non-sense.

[PELHAM 10]

If you actually read the bill (I bet you didn't) maybe you'll stop with this politically correct non-sense.

I did read it and therefore provided the links - how much did you bet - you owe me lol. If you had read it you would know what I say is perfectly true and correct.

If you look back in the OffTopic threads you will notice it's common practice for me to read the actual legislation and this is not the 1st time I have had to reply and correct facts here. (look up what I said about the NDAA, I read the actual draft bill and realised within minutes that what was being said about it by the ACLU and others was complete guff)

I see your right in on the dumb aspect again, overly critical is worth it especially when a law is added to the net that can be "stretched". Posting one video to highlight the concern and knowing people have a brain to check further is how I roll, I dont assume people are too thick to check out both sides, unlike yourself it seems.

Intellectual property is the big one in terms of interpretation when enforced.

Yes but if you had taken the time to do 10mins actual research on whether that is true or not you would now know it isn't. The various conspiracy sites have whipped up a froth based on 1 phrase "Intellectual property". That phrase has been defined specifically as "research and development" so what is your problem? Why are you posting videos knowing the content is not correct and prompting a reaction from others - there is name for that sort of thing.

Edited April 18, 2012 by PELHAM

[mrcash2009 0]

Why are you posting videos knowing the content is not correct and prompting a reaction from others - there is name for that sort of thing.

So its my fault YOU reacted? And your psychic powers that I knew the content to be false (your claim and point not the fact that I posted)? No Pelham, thats you projecting again. Did you honestly think I posted that video and "lit a fuse" with it on this thread??! I posted the video becuase its a forum and relevant to said ongoing subject, no matter what views are here, esp the fact that Facebook are now on board and its all still within the arena of on-line/net & security. I dont sit around posting waiting for you to show up, its not your thread, its a thread about the subject matter, as I clearly stated previously in my post on the first paragraph.

this is not the 1st time I have had to reply and correct facts here.

Im sorry that its urks you with your self appointed moderator style.

I still have a problem with it, other do, the fact 2 threads have been here with discussion about this shows this, you dont have a problem with it, not sure what you might add. I dont see this thread posting absolute positives in light of this subject, so if its ok with you I will post videos and so on.

If you post facts, then continue to do so, Im not arguing what you post in light of that, its called balance Pelham, two sides too a story, open discussion, points of view, "freedom and democracy" and all that mate.

The title of the video was "CISPA = SOPA 2.0 ? ".

It doesn't look anything like SOPA to me

Good, links have been posted by all, both views are logged, although I dont think the same, so .... what next? People can decipher as they wish, and look further, and think something is complete garbage, no real need to single the poster out as some agenda posting forum reaction maker, its just a point of view thats valid in the grand scheme of the subject, shades of grey and so on.

Edited April 18, 2012 by mrcash2009

[PELHAM 10]

Don't worry I won't ask you to explain why this time lol. Keep on posting videos by all means - it keeps me entertained lol.

Edited April 19, 2012 by PELHAM

[batto 17]

Yes but if you had taken the time to do 10mins actual research on whether that is true or not you would now know it isn't. The various conspiracy sites have whipped up a froth based on 1 phrase "Intellectual property". That phrase has been defined specifically as "research and development" so what is your problem?

It's mentioned several times in the bill that entities can participate for protecting their rights and properties. PELHAM again tries cheap talk using words like "cospiracy sites" hoping we will buy his lies.

It's better that SOPA in "dumb people will not mess with Internet (routers & DNS)".