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SOPA - Internet as we know it about to be gone?

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You know that I laugh a little bit inside every time I hear "USA, land of the free"?

You are free no more.

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/21/gchq-cables-secret-world-communications-nsa

GCHQ taps fibre-optic cables for secret access to world's communications.

British spy agency collects and stores vast quantities of global email messages, Facebook posts, internet histories and calls, and shares them with NSA, latest documents from Edward Snowden reveal

And then ....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23012317

NSA leaks: US charges Edward Snowden with spying

The Irony is most strong with this one. It is any wonder it was called the "World wide web".

Edited by mrcash2009

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Charges dont mention spying? Is the misleading headline just designed to catch tthe eye?

Data referred to is metadata, ie who called who, not what they said. Looks like the G will attempt to spin this out as long as possible even though they dont really have anything new.

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Charges dont mention spying? Is the misleading headline just designed to catch tthe eye?

Maybe its an in-joke im not entirely sure, I cant see how it can be classed as that unless they are reaching for more legal reasons to use him as an example, with a large punishment.

Data referred to is metadata, ie who called who, not what they said. Looks like the G will attempt to spin this out as long as possible even though they dont really have anything new.

So we are lead to believe, then again anything that opens this issue up is going to have the source attacked, so thats also nothing new either.

Edited by mrcash2009

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The specific area of law is the espionage act, but it also covers the unauthorised leaking of info as in this case. He didnt spy, he leaked and that is what the charges relate to. The beeb newsroom either cant tell the difference or thought 'charged with leaking' wasnt catchy enough.

Edited by Mattar_Tharkari

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The BBC will run with any horse to demonise so i'm not surprised they went with that angle to be honest. Im surprised they didn't tag line him with "paperwork terrorist" or some other tripe to add into the mix.

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Big Barrack & Brit Brother is watchin you ! :bounce3:

"NSA surveillance played little role in foiling terror plots, experts say......."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/12/nsa-surveillance-data-terror-attack

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-06-19/world/40072243_1_phone-records-terrorist-plots-u-s-phone-companies

Wonder how much of the surveillance is used for economic espionage...

Edited by oxmox

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There is a huge outcry currently in the EU about the extensive spy programs of the US/UK.

Under the international intelligence agreements, nations are categorised by the US according to their trust level. The US is defined as 'first party' while the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand enjoy 'second party' trusted relationships. Countries such as Germany and France have 'third party', or less trusted, relationships.

Asselborn characterized the operation as a breach of trust. "The US justifies everything as being part of the fight against terrorism. But the EU and its diplomats are not terrorists. We need a guarantee from the very highest level that it stops immediately."

"If media reports are correct, then it is reminiscent of methods used by enemies during the Cold War,"

***"The spying has reached dimensions that I didn't think were possible for a democratic country. Such behavior among allies is intolerable." The US, he added, once the land of the free, "is suffering from a security syndrome," added Brok, a member of Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservative Christian Democrats. "They have completely lost all balance. George Orwell is nothing by comparison."

Attacks from America: NSA Spied on European Union Offices

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/nsa-spied-on-european-union-offices-a-908590.html

Spying 'Out of Control': EU Official Questions Trade Negotiations

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/eu-officials-furious-at-nsa-spying-in-brussels-and-germany-a-908614.html

Cover Story: How the NSA Targets Germany and Europe

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/secret-documents-nsa-targeted-germany-and-eu-buildings-a-908609.html

Diplomatic Fallout: Experts Warn of Trans-Atlantic Ice Age

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/trans-atlantic-relations-threatened-by-revelations-of-mass-us-spying-a-908746.html

Guardian Report: US Engaged in Vast Spying Operation on Europe

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/us-spying-on-europe-more-widespread-than-first-thought-a-908706.html

Edited by oxmox

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AS if germany isn´t spying on its citizens as well....

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AS if germany isn´t spying on its citizens as well....

Well, its not just about germany the outcry happens in many EU countries. In germany there are regulations and a strong law exists about protecting citizens due to historical events and a strong constitutional state, but since you could read the BND is working together with foreign secret services and obtaining datas maybe they bypass that. When it comes to foreign espionage, it is to doubt if the BND is doing espionage in the same broad scale, the press wrote allegedly they are working more target oriented. At the end who knows what is really happening, but it seems clear that these exposures by snowden is not just about the war on terror like explained in the years before, it was probably just a pretense.

Edited by oxmox

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Heh heh yeah, thank goodness Germany doesn't spy on anyone and will therefore never be accused of the same thing? Saw a reporter from Die Welt commenting on this on Aljazeera, he says it's political opportunism mainly from someone who wants to take over from Barroso as EU President next year and is hugely exaggerated as Germany does the same thing. Everyone spies on everyone, gossips like old ladies and spreads tall tales, always have done. The 'spying expert' said colleagues in his field learned nothing new from this.

It's reported that Snowden has applied for asylum in 15 different countries so far, you can see him practicing his next move here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wesTL2mnWCE

Edited by Mattar_Tharkari

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Yeah I really hate it how suddenly all the top politicians in germany are like "We didn´t know about this, this is disgracefull". Oh Come on, you have a secret agency as well and you have counter espionage. Also everyone who understands how the internet works could have told you that the USA and GB are in a perfect position to spy on everyone. Don´t pretend... :j:

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thank goodness Germany doesn't spy on anyone

Any state has a secret service who does spy, but the outcry is about the broad scale. There is a reason why snowden is currently on the target list and hunted since his exposures harm, otherwise there would be not such a tumult about it in contrast of the downplayed explanations from the originating countries. I dont know if the white house, representatives and political institutions in the US are bugged by the EU secret services. Some countries in the EU and especially Germany plays a special role here, since their nation of law have really a lot more strictly regulations about privacy aswell the mentaliy of the citizen about it, its not like in the US or other nations and this reason has aswell a historical background. Their state of law is at risk.

Edited by oxmox

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Oxmox dear boy, do you think this is the first time this has happened? Take a look at these pages, the reasons for Snowden's defection and his future is written there. Almost all defections from west to east over the years were for the same reasons and ended the same way. It takes time but they all eventually realise that they were deluded, taken in by propaganda and regret it, 90% ask to return:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_and_Mitchell_Defection

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Philby#Moscow

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_David_Hawkins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Norris_Hamilton

Does Germany have laws against spying on foreign governments and citizens?

Edited by Mattar_Tharkari

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Oxmox dear boy, do you think this is the first time this has happened? Take a look at these pages, the reasons for Snowden's defection and his future is written there. Almost all defections from west to east over the years were for the same reasons and ended the same way. It takes time but they all eventually realise that they were deluded, taken in by propaganda and regret it, 90% ask to return:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_and_Mitchell_Defection

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Philby#Moscow

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_David_Hawkins

Does Germany have laws against spying on foreign governments and citizens?

Of course there were defections already before, but what do you want to say here ? The german foreign intelligence service is bound by laws, especially when they are operating only domestically. But there is more to this, they are bound to "principle of proportionality" and need a legal basis.

For example, in 2009, there was a scandal where the german intelligence service did survilance and search through around 2500 foreign PC computers without any legal basis. There were other cases aswell i.e. they did read along the e-mails of the afghan trade ministry, and so on...

The BND (foreign intelligence service) has not a general power, there needs to be a legal basis.

Edited by oxmox

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I've just checked it myself - there is nothing in law preventing the German BND from spying on foreign governments and citizens and legal approval is clearly stated in the Federal Intelligence Service Act, they can store information about an individual for 10 years. If you look at the supervision and control measures for the service they are similar to those placed on the CIA / NSA. The US servicce also requires authorisation and a legal basis.

From it's own wiki page:

The BND acts as an early warning system to alert the German government to threats to German interests from abroad. It depends heavily on wiretapping and electronic surveillance of international communications.

You trying to convince us that they sit there with their eyes closed and their fingers in their ears?

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I've just checked it myself - there is nothing in law preventing the German BND from spying on foreign governments and citizens and legal approval is clearly stated in the Federal Intelligence Service Act, they can store information about an individual for 10 years. If you look at the supervision and control measures for the service they are similar to those placed on the CIA / NSA. The US servicce also requires authorisation and a legal basis.

From it's own wiki page:

You trying to convince us that they sit there with their eyes closed and their fingers in their ears?

Yes, they are bound by laws domestically. Such an authority is for sure not doing nothing since it has a purpose, not sure how you read in my posts that I want to convince you that a foreign intelligence service is doing no foreign surveillance. :p

Edited by oxmox

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Well and who really controls those "intelligence services"? How much they are terrorist hunting and how much they do support their own domestic economy by spying on foreign company and research & developments?? Maybe there is a deal between government and a secret agency in place such as: "as long as you can provide us with certain data we will turn a blind eye on other things..." ? On the other hand its funny to watch how fast US people go ballistic if China, Russia or any other country is spying on them = instant "axis of evil" and warmongering guaranteed! Doubt that any or most of EU governments would have the balls to deny and prosecute official/inofficial US spying on them and their economy, science + technology developments.... Big brother is not bad, he is just doing these things to protect US citizens against all those evil things - plus possible evil stuff and people who maybe could turn evil. Intelligence services are always and everytime right! Stop asking silly questions about their work its all automatically good and fine !! ;) :)

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against all those evil things - plus possible evil stuff and people who maybe could turn evil.

Those that doth protest too much on this and point the fingers are the ones to be looking right back it with the same tools oddly enough.

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@ NoRailgunner, the difference is the USA doesn't spy for profit. They don't use their intelligence services for industrial espionage. That is the argument with China and Russia, they hack businesses and turn the data over to their industrialists.

There is actually an unclassified document published by the CIA some years ago that explains what they do in terms of economic espionage, (note France is mentioned there too after agents were caught spying on IBM and Texas instruments):

Government Spying for Commercial Gain 2007

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/vol37no2/html/v37i2a02p_0001.htm

current US policy, as recommended by Gates, does not include providing private business with government intelligence data for commercial gain
Nevertheless, the problems associated with legal issues, cost-effectiveness, multinational corporations, and the increased risk of international conflict indicate that government-sponsored spying for commercial gain is not worth the effort.

Russian industrial espionage began in 1929, it's an old game:

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/vol7no2/html/v07i2a05p_0001.htm

(Russian) Industrial Intelligence

Although intelligence activity is as old as society, this seventh line of Soviet operation is something new, first begun in 1929. Its purpose was to assist in the industrialization of the Soviet Union by stealing production secrets-new inventions, secret technological processes, etc.-from the advanced countries of Europe and America. Soviet intelligence organizations abroad began to recruit engineers, scientists, and inventors working in the laboratories and plants of the big industrial concerns of the world.

At this time the Soviet Union, besides buying big quantities of machinery and even whole plants from the industrial companies of the West, negotiated with them for the purchase of patents and the know-how for production processes. A number of such purchases were made and foreign engineers came to instruct the Russians in the application of the new methods. But often, when the price demanded by foreign concerns for their "technical aid" was too high-it always ran into many millions of dollars-the head of the Soviet government would challenge the Foreign Department of the NKVD to steal the secrets in question from them. The response to these challenges was invariably enthusiastic, and after a number of them had been successfully met the new Division for Industrial Intelligence was created within the NKVD Foreign Department.

Full library:

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/subjectII.htm#I

Edited by Mattar_Tharkari

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@Mattar_Tharkari of course you can believe whatever you want even if its the opposite and not common sense. Its imo naive to think that spying on other countries/citizens is just done as an "pre-emptive" process only against all the bad or evil guys and all data is stored safely + no one is interested in using them be it for research or economical benefits. No doubt every intelligence service will say that they are the good guys and that they are doing only good things!! ;)

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Where's your proof the US conducts industrial espionage? It's illegal to do so under the Economic Espionage Act of 1996.

There is no need in the 1st place, the USA is the most technologically advanced nation. There really isn't much that they don't already have or know. That is common sense, what you have is blind faith in a conspiracy theory.

If you actually look at the evidence, it's others spying on US economic and defence secrets. Read the latest annual report, it lists arrests, evidence and data recovered:

http://www.ncix.gov/publications/reports/fecie_all/Foreign_Economic_Collection_2011.pdf

more here:

http://www.ncix.gov/issues/economic/index.php

and here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_espionage

If the USA was conducting widespread industrial espionage there would be evidence, complaints and arrests, there isn't any. The majority of the evidence indicates that the US resources in this field are engaged in counter espionage.

Edited by Mattar_Tharkari

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Of course US politicians and US intelligence services did and do nothing wrong because of: "US 1stplace strong!!". There really isn't much that you need to know or need to think of - just simply-blindly believe in anything what they say or write. All the others are just unpatriotic, traitors and perhaps just trying to create a anti-US conspiracy (or anti-US-gov.conspiracy@net).... Please don't look back at history of USA or try to find affairs, political scandals etc - its nothing compared to every other country of the world. US is the best, their friends and followers are ok and all others who have doubts or oppose US politics/ideas and certain "security" measures are evil. :cool:

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@ Mattar:

Where's your proof the US conducts industrial espionage?

Wheres your proof they are not 100 percent? Do you work for them? Are you an all seeing omnipresent being? Do you have full clearance and privvy to all factors of all agencies? You posted offical public domain website documents, nice.

If the USA was conducting widespread industrial espionage there would be evidence, complaints and arrests, there isn't any.

Thats becuase people get fired, have legal obligations, plenty of money for top legal backing and know how to work something within a legal framework, contractually compromised, compartmentalised structures with levels of need to know, and anyone who does show evidence are whistle-blowers who get shot down in flames as a traitor and demonised or made an example of for others, or question anything and as I mention will get fired or probably threatened.

Theres a big wall to get through to get evidence to the public domain on anything such as this. And as mentioned history has the answers in regards to how agencies conduct and act, not a reset button for the day your in on this forum and ignore it all. When there is allot of power to gleen and financial gain there's plenty wanting to shut down on anything exposing a jot of it.

Linking official sources will tell you everything you need to know in the public domain website, so yes, they are not conducting anything like that at all, correct, job done.

Funny part is, just like the PRISM situation if proof did get out, again, it would be the same .. lots of officials shouting it down, the leak in question getting it in the neck royally (more than likely portrayed as a nutter and then digging for something in their life to smear them via the mass media), and people then posting something like "This isn't proof, officials said so" or some other convenient shift (see this thread) like "Yeh well we all know they do it, what's the problem??? Doesn't effect me".

People smash those under "theory" tags and yet when something gets proven its explained away again, a massive dose of doublethink gas gets spilled every-time.

BTW Norailgunner, watch out, becuase next you will be "Anti US" ... I had that thrown at me a few times, which was ludicrous, as this crap is global.

Edited by mrcash2009

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@Cash No one is that perfect, if they had been conducting industrial espionage there would have been a few incidents here and there. The USA have been caught on numerous occasions doing the range of intelligence that they admit to. Just last month a CIA operative was caught in Moscow trying to recruit Govt double agents. So far no arrests for industrial espionage, yet in the USA we have around 50 Chinese and Russian agents caught with industrial information see the report in post #647. It's official policy that they don't do it, they don't need to as they can't benefit from it, no complaints from foreign govts or arrests. So there is nothing to indicate that they deviate from their official position.

What you say is yet more conspiracy theory and most of what you write doesn't make sense.

Edited by Mattar_Tharkari

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