God

[WKK Gimbal 0]

Spreading religion thorugh missionaries has nothing to do with faith, it is purely based on politics of old times, where it was easier to control a territory that believed in the same god as the ruler (who could not change his religious status without risking all his other territory). Therefore they would squeese their religion over the heads of the population, whether they liked it or not to begin with. A good example is when Spain discovered America and started building churches like mad. I'm ABSOLUTELY convinced that the Inka indians where perfectly happy with their own god.

All in all, religion has simply been a cheap tool for dictators to keep people under control. Joining a religion means submission - that is why I dislike it. It means you sacrifice your individuality in order to follow the concrete rules of a system.

[WKK Gimbal 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ July 04 2002,14:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 04 2002,14<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Its not a matter of proof, its a matter of an experience of God, one can not pass on experience. Intelectual arguments on the subject of religion collapse due to this, as I believe we have seen here.<span id='postcolor'>

Look, intellectual arguments only collapse, because the religious side fails to follow the rules of intellectual debate. Instead, they turn to preaching.

I guess I'll have to put it really bluntly. People use a variety of means to get through life happily, some more succesfull than others. Some people booze, some people do drugs, some people jerk off, some people believe in god, etc... I wish the believers would be like those who masturbate for kicks: Not cramming their "kick" down the throats of others, who do not want to hear it.

So believe all you want. I do not care. But when you're in an intellectual debate, you have to follow the rules. You have to provide concrete evidence. Comments like: "Last time I did LSD I experienced the presence of John Lennon and he is like the god and is like alive and stuff. I believe it since I experienced it" do not fit into an intellectual debate, unless you can provide more proof than your "experience".

SUMMARY:

Believe what you want, but keep it to yourself. Others do not want to hear your beliefs no more than they want to hear you're jerking off everyday wearing a bra and a pogostick crammed up your arse.

In an intellectual debate, you have to follow the rules of logic. If you want to involve your beliefs, you have to provide evidence.<span id='postcolor'>

Amen. These words are my bible.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Gimbal is right, religon has been used as a political tool. As for the world being a better place if everybody was a Christian, I guess I should have put it this way, the world would be a better place if everybody actually went by the rules of Christiantity, not islam, not any other religon. For one thing, look at all the eyewitnesses who saw Christ. The events in the Bible which include Christ where written by those who saw Him are spoke to him, not many years later. Excavations hacve found tablets where the two cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are mentioned. Look at the Jewish people, God promised Abraham ,their father, 1.a great nation 2.a great name 3.being a blessing to all nations 4. A land which forever shall belong to the Jews. Also God said to Abraham that He would bless those who bless you and curse thos who curse you. Well we can pretty much see that this is evident today in Isreal, 1. Isreal is a ghraet nation. 2. Jews are very respectable people 3. America's best friend, and America has been greately blessed. 4.Isreal is the Jews place and it now belongs to them. God has cursed those who cursed isreal, palastien, and blessed those who blessed them, America.

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 0]

I disagree. If I had to choose a religion everyone in the world would be, I'd say Buddist. They seem on the most part to be nice level headed people.

But I think it would be better if everyone was open minded.

Duke thinks I should be Christian, I think he should be open minded.

[Hardliner 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ July 05 2002,16:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also God said to Abraham that He would bless those who bless you and curse thos who curse you. Well we can pretty much see that this is evident today in Isreal, 1. Isreal is a ghraet nation. 2. Jews are very respectable people 3. America's best friend, and America has been greately blessed. 4.Isreal is the Jews place and it now belongs to them. God has cursed those who cursed isreal, palastien, and blessed those who blessed them, America.<span id='postcolor'>

Its this blessing that USA gets from Israel that is partly the reason for the september 11th attacks. Israel is messing with Palastien and USA is Israels friend. Palastine wants to have its own land and it is being denyed this. I wouldn't say God blessed USA on september 11th would you? More like cursed.

For the peace to finnally arrive in the Middle East I still believe that both sides need to work together, something that seems very much immposible now and even before as there is so much hate being generated. Sad really.

[Hardliner 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ July 05 2002,16:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">4.Isreal is the Jews place and it now belongs to them.<span id='postcolor'>

Are you sure that Israel was there for the Jews before others were there first? I'm not trying to be a bastard here but I read somewhere or heard that Israel was NOT the first there.

[Tracker 0]

ALL RELGION IS EVIL!

and for those who would comment and say we would not know good if there was not evil...

we wouldnt have ever known evil if relgion wasnt around

people would all get along primaryly.. and see eachother as people with different skin and face modifications specific to the temperate region of the world they live.. and not classify people based on there stupid relgions, which leads to conflict

its been the root of all conflict throughout the ages, and even

tho some people seem to be growing out of it, its like a toxic weed that keeps coming back time after time untill you get all the little pathetic sprouts that persist to grow

untill you cover everything with hot water..

and yes.. I am suggesting.. pouring hot water over every relgious person, for they are weeds in an otherwise decent garden..... covered with garden gauge 5 inch tracks and minature steam locomotives

[WKK Gimbal 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ July 05 2002,16:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1.a great nation 2.a great name 3.being a blessing to all nations 4. A land which forever shall belong to the Jews. Also God said to Abraham that He would bless those who bless you and curse thos who curse you. Well we can pretty much see that this is evident today in Isreal, 1. Isreal is a ghraet nation. 2. Jews are very respectable people 3. America's best friend, and America has been greately blessed. 4.Isreal is the Jews place and it now belongs to them. God has cursed those who cursed isreal, palastien, and blessed those who blessed them, America.<span id='postcolor'>

Duke ... I'll have to take my hat off to this quote. It's simply the most stupid statement in this entire thread.

[WKK Gimbal 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 05 2002,16:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I disagree.  If I had to choose a religion everyone in the world would be, I'd say Buddist.  They seem on the most part to be nice level headed people.<span id='postcolor'>

They had warrior monks. Not much better than knight templars...

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Well Spetember 11th was not for siding with Isreal. Spetember 11th happned becuase the people who did consider Americans as a Chrstian people, so that why they attacked us. Isreal may not have been the first there but God gave it to them, so its is Isreals. Why should I be opened minded? I believe there is only one way to God, so I think I am going to believe what the Bible says. Religon itself has not been the route of conflict, but the name of religon has been used as basis for War. As for the Chritstian religon being evil, that is a horrible statement with no truth behind. Read the Bible, Christianity is actually a peaceful religon.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

What is so stupid about it? It is true. Ever here of the six days war, I believe it was called.

[PitViper 0]

Here's something that will spice up this thread:

Socialism is the new "new-age" religion of the self-described "elites". That includes all the faith and failings of any classical religion.

[WKK Gimbal 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ July 05 2002,17:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Christianity is actually a peaceful religon.<span id='postcolor'>

Right ... the crusades tells us all about that.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ July 05 2002,08:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Paratrooper:

"I'm not a fanatic, but that is one of the most offencive things I have ever heard. How dare you compare Christianity to bestiality!"

I just love these modern times of ours. Just say the magic word "offended" and everybody is supposed to yield before your offended might. And I didn't even try to "offend" you.

<sigh> I'm not so much comparing as I am pointing out that these both are among the many different things that people rely on to live through another day. People do some weird stuff for kicks.

Also, each of these many things are often important merely to the particular person who relies on the particular thing to boost him through his days. Now when the person in question starts to enlighten other people of the thing that he does, these other people often feel bored/enraged/disgusted/tired to hear all this preaching which is mere crap to them.<span id='postcolor'>

Vile carnality is not remotley comparable to Christian faith, infact bestiality is an act not a belief.

People are not Christians "for kicks". It supports through fellowship and faith, not through some perverse sexual gratification. You don't know anything about faith if you think that is how religion works in people's lives.

[WKK Gimbal 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 05 2002,18:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ July 05 2002,08:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Paratrooper:

"I'm not a fanatic, but that is one of the most offencive things I have ever heard. How dare you compare Christianity to bestiality!"

I just love these modern times of ours. Just say the magic word "offended" and everybody is supposed to yield before your offended might. And I didn't even try to "offend" you.

<sigh> I'm not so much comparing as I am pointing out that these both are among the many different things that people rely on to live through another day. People do some weird stuff for kicks.

Also, each of these many things are often important merely to the particular person who relies on the particular thing to boost him through his days. Now when the person in question starts to enlighten other people of the thing that he does, these other people often feel bored/enraged/disgusted/tired to hear all this preaching which is mere crap to them.<span id='postcolor'>

Vile carnality is not remotley comparable to Christian faith, infact bestiality is an act not a belief.

People are not Christians "for kicks". It supports through fellowship and faith, not through some perverse sexual gratification. You don't know anything about faith if you think that is how religion works in people's lives.<span id='postcolor'>

And I think you completely missed the point he was making.

[Hardliner 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ July 05 2002,17:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well Spetember 11th was not for siding with Isreal. Spetember 11th happned becuase the people who did consider Americans as a Chrstian people, so that why they attacked us. Isreal may not have been the first there but God gave it to them, so its is Isreals.<span id='postcolor'>

Well september 11th WAS partially for backing Israel all these years. Have you seen what Bin Laden said in the tapes? "Americans will not know peace untill we know peace in Palastien". Its because USA mostly sides with Israel in the middle east or so it seems. I don't see Palastien as being evil they just have NOTHING, no reason to go on and thats when you get vengance attacks with suicide bombs. Israel sends tanks and choppers with missiles and troops into their land, they have nothing BUT bombs so what do they do? Sit there and take shit? Or kill Israelis that are occupying their land?

As with God giving that place to the Israelis I suppost God supports their occupying of Palastien land and bulldozing their homes making their OWN homes there for Jews making Palastines homeless am I correct? Also the constant bullets flying around hitting innocent people yes on BOTH sides that just want a life? Surely there are people on both sides that just want to live.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Wars have been fought in the name og religon, that where actually just political.

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ July 05 2002,11:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Read the Bible, Christianity is actually a peaceful religon.<span id='postcolor'>

Read the bible. It's actually very violent and graphic with such themes as rape and murdering of babies. And these quotes are only a very few, there are plenty more if you know where to look. Deuternomy has a lot of good "R" rated ones. They don't teach this stuff in Sunday School!

"If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found, Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver.... (Deuteronomy 22:28,29)

"And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, the king desireth not any dowry, but a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king's enemies....wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men, and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son-in-law." (Samuel 18:25,27)

"When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And thou seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and has a desire unto her, that thou wouldst have her to thy wife, Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails....and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife." (Deuteronomy 21:11,13)

"Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:16)

"Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children, and women..." (Ezekiel 9:6)

"Thus saith the Lord; For three transgessions of the children of Ammon, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof, because they have ripped up the women with child of Gilead, that they might enlarge their border." (Amos 1:13)

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WKK Gimbal @ July 05 2002,18:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">7--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 05 2002,187)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ July 05 2002,08:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Paratrooper:

"I'm not a fanatic, but that is one of the most offencive things I have ever heard. How dare you compare Christianity to bestiality!"

I just love these modern times of ours. Just say the magic word "offended" and everybody is supposed to yield before your offended might. And I didn't even try to "offend" you.

<sigh> I'm not so much comparing as I am pointing out that these both are among the many different things that people rely on to live through another day. People do some weird stuff for kicks.

Also, each of these many things are often important merely to the particular person who relies on the particular thing to boost him through his days. Now when the person in question starts to enlighten other people of the thing that he does, these other people often feel bored/enraged/disgusted/tired to hear all this preaching which is mere crap to them.<span id='postcolor'>

Vile carnality is not remotley comparable to Christian faith, infact bestiality is an act not a belief.

People are not Christians "for kicks". It supports through fellowship and faith, not through some perverse sexual gratification. You don't know anything about faith if you think that is how religion works in people's lives.<span id='postcolor'>

And I think you completely missed the point he was making.<span id='postcolor'>

I understand the point he was trying to make, it is not viable. He is not making it in terms of religious faith. I maintain that comparing Christianity to bestiality is repugnant.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

I seriously doubt Spetember 11th would have happend if we had been the nation we once where. God told the Jews to kill all the people living in that region in the bible, but the Jews disobayed God, and God said that they,the arab countries would be a thorn in the side of the Jews till the end of the world. Look at it now, it is exactly like what God saiud. You may ask, why did God say kill them, well it is becuase they would not believe in HIm. There never was a palistien nation, and that land is the land of the Jews.

[Guest]

Wow, Duke of Ray. This thread has really reached its high point of stupidity. But I think you illustrate a very good point: That religion has no place interfering with earthly matters. Then it is no longer a question of personal belief but becomes just stupid.

[Tracker 0]

oh yes... and this is coming from the same god that supposedly created the world and loves all?.. are you sure hes not related to bush? he seems to have alot against arabs

there you go again, searching your little book of firebox lighter, for excuses to kill people and destroy cultures

which is EXACTLY what the arabs do.. are you so different?

killing of other cultures BECAUSE of relgion.. not in the name of it

[Tracker 0]

thats an idea to avoid war crimes and international concern,

just re-write a few pages of "god sez" and there you have it, according to you christians, its a perfectly valid excuse and reason for destroying people, cultures and lives.. if they sell it for a dollar less, im sure the old outdated version will become less apparent

[Hardliner 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ July 05 2002,18:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I seriously doubt Spetember 11th would have happend if we had been the nation we once where. God told the Jews to kill all the people living in that region in the bible, but the Jews disobayed God, and God said that they,the arab countries would be a thorn in the side of the Jews till the end of the world. Look at it now, it is exactly like what God saiud. You may ask, why did God say kill them, well it is becuase they would not believe in HIm. There never was a palistien nation, and that land is the land of the Jews.<span id='postcolor'>

I will not state that you are wrong because doing that in itself would be wrong BUT I will disagree. I find it wrong that a God who claims to "love" all would want to wipe out people like that, to me that is just wrong in my opinion. They are a thorn in Israel side and why? Because they are constantly tormented, pushed around. I seen documentries recently where the Israeli troops look down on Palastines and make them do stupid things at gunpoint. The Jews didn't like being tormented by the NAZIS but look what they do here! Maybe Hitler was on to something I don't know. And as for saying that they have no right to have land of their own and be a nation THAT is just wrong and all this comming from a... christian. Really shows how violant it is to me anyway. Palastines are people too you know, Israelis aren't the only people there.

Wasn't Jesus the King of the Jews? If so where does the christians come into it? they believe in different thing. Hell I can't even remember if I asked this before sorry.

[WKK Gimbal 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 05 2002,18:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WKK Gimbal @ July 05 2002,18:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 05 2002,18<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ July 05 2002,08:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Paratrooper:

"I'm not a fanatic, but that is one of the most offencive things I have ever heard. How dare you compare Christianity to bestiality!"

I just love these modern times of ours. Just say the magic word "offended" and everybody is supposed to yield before your offended might. And I didn't even try to "offend" you.

<sigh> I'm not so much comparing as I am pointing out that these both are among the many different things that people rely on to live through another day. People do some weird stuff for kicks.

Also, each of these many things are often important merely to the particular person who relies on the particular thing to boost him through his days. Now when the person in question starts to enlighten other people of the thing that he does, these other people often feel bored/enraged/disgusted/tired to hear all this preaching which is mere crap to them.<span id='postcolor'>

Vile carnality is not remotley comparable to Christian faith, infact bestiality is an act not a belief.

People are not Christians "for kicks". It supports through fellowship and faith, not through some perverse sexual gratification. You don't know anything about faith if you think that is how religion works in people's lives.<span id='postcolor'>

And I think you completely missed the point he was making.<span id='postcolor'>

I understand the point he was trying to make, it is not viable. He is not making it in terms of religious faith. I maintain that comparing Christianity to bestiality is repugnant.<span id='postcolor'>

OK, let me cut it out for ya. The meaning is that you can believe whatever you like to believe, but should not force it upon others to believe the same. That you must respect others for believing differently than you do.

He did not compare bestiality with religion. He was using it as an example of people who promote their way of life. What the way of life _includes_ is besides the point.

It might as well have been the way that pop-culture dictates what measurements our bodies must have, or we should be ashamed of ourselves and only come out at night.

Religious people are by far the least tolerant towards people who have other values. Why care which god/rockstar/TVshow/outfit/sexuality people like, if they're happy with it? Can't you be a happy christian unless everyone accept your visions as the ultimate truth? Why are christians the first to burst out in rage when the subject of homosexuality arises? It's none of their business who other people likes to sleep with. I could go on about this, but it's pointless.