What makes ArmA more realistic and where does it come from?

[nrs 0]

Hello, I'm a long time lurker (actually since before 2005, that's just when I decided to create an account).

When comparing ArmA to say, CoD or Battlefield, it's pretty clear which feels more realistic, but what do you attribute this to?

I don't think you can honestly say it's the tank / helicopter / plane physics & weapon systems, can you? Those don't seem vastly better than Battlefield to me. Feel free to disagree there.

I think it's primarily attributable to:

• You die easily.
  
• The vastness makes dying SUCK, especially when you just travelled for five minutes. It fosters an entirely different mentality.
  
• While tanks and planes and helicopters aren't really realistic on their own there is an interaction between them that's missing in most other games.
  

Disagree entirely? Other points?

[nkenny 1051]

1. Arma2 pushes engagement ranges out beyond 200 meters

2. Arma2's AI will actively flank and follow enemies across large distances.

Beyond that arma2 does little that hasn't been done before, sometimes better, by other games. (both from a realism and interface perspective). That is not to say that the ease of using the mission editor or the constant support from the developers isn't appreciated! It just doesn't fall into the purview of the questions you were asking.

[metalcraze 290]

There are many things. Some are:

- Bullet ballistics. CoD and BF are hitscan (save for sniper rifles and even they don't have ballistics but a mere bullet drop which has no relation to reality).

In ArmA bullet path is a proper curve where bullet starts in a barrel (and not inside the crosshair) goes up until it reaches the point your sight is zeroed to and then drops. It may and will richochet, its path will be changed by materials it's passing through, its speed and caliber affect what it passes through and what damage it will deal. Like you can really mess up vehicles with anti-materiel rifles. All this makes shooting much more interesting and complicated.

- wounding. No silly HP line (and even worse health regen from CoD and BF). Obviously here it isn't entirely real for a gameplay purposes, but still more real than any other game. Depending on where you've been hit may cause some pretty bad effects. Getting hit in the leg f.e. with no medic around is often worse than dying as you will have to crawl from now on (there are however "easier" wounding systems present for a mission designer to use)

- positional damage for vehicles. Meaning separate parts of vehicles can be damaged. Damage a barrel of a tank - and it will become next to useless, damage a chopper rotor - and it will start rotating like mad with pilot not having a control anymore, etc. Plus much like with bullets - more complex damage system. Like you may not destroy the vehicle but still kill the crew inside. Like tank can still ride but the driver will be dead.

- and of course tactical teamplay over hollywood stuff. You have to have someone watching your back, you need to pay attention to your surroundings and use every microterrain bump for cover, real life tactics work in this game like nowhere else - meaning if military does this manoeuver and it works - it will sure as hell work in ArmA. And yeah fast dying helps this a lot.

- and then minor stuff like proper recoil - after firing a few bullets you need to readjust your gun; suppression fire - when bullets pass or hit nearby your hands start to shake making you much less effective (this affects AI too) so even if you don't hit an enemy you still make life really uncomfortable for him

Finally there's ACE mod which takes realism to where it should always have been in ArmA:

complex wounding systems with epinephrine, morphine, heart massage, losing consciousness, blood loss and pain effects, a chance for a wounded soldier to die if treated by some random soldier instead of skilled medic, wind simulation (which is unfortunately not present in game by default), advanced sniper optics zeroing, realistic NVG view distance, more complex behaviour of locked launchers (and missiles on respective vehicles) and literally a shitton of other realism features and tools (f.e. it simulates tools snipers use to determine range and windage and some tools can be connected to each other to share info)

Simply put

ArmA is more realistic than any other shooter but not as realistic as itself with ACE mod

[sakura_chan 9]

The thing that I think makes it more realistic is the fact that it is an open world game. You aren't walking down the same corridor each time. You can usually approach an objective from any direction you want. Sometimes I will walk for miles around an objective just to sneak up the enemies ass. Also, vehicles are more realistic because they have a realistic space to move in. In BF3 planes have to take off and fight in a confined area, so the physics are altered for the sake of gameplay. The open world and unpredictable AI ensure that no mission plays the same way twice and also that victory is never assured. If you open up any regular fps mission, you know that you are going to finish it. Sometimes an Arma mission is a cakewalk, and then the next time you play it something different happens that results in total failure.

[Gunter Severloh 4017]

Other points are, you can pretty much do anything in the game you want, countless mods, and scripts that can define how a mission will play out.

If your into SP then things can be made where when you die you can switch to another teamate, or if you prefer use the sp respawn script, or save your game.

In Mp there many various types of respawn not limited to any style of mission.

There really are no limits in this game, the limits are limited to the player's ability to design a mission with the knowledge to create how they want the mission to play out.

All depends.

But one thing that Arma series has over all other games like COD and or BF is total freedom.

I can make my own BF version of the game in a mission, in fact it already has been done, same for COD.

if you dont like the tanks or choppers how they fly, shoot or whatever, then you can mod it so they do, as said theres really no limits.

[BasileyOne 10]

virtually anything Arma2 consist of.

[wipman 1]

Hi, i think that what makes the ArmA series more realistic than those games that you named, the possible options on the missions editor. Let's C ya

[Laqueesha 474]

Yeah, the vehicular combat in ArmA leaves much to be desired. One RPG-7 rocket can send an M1A2 exploding to Kingdom Come, jet aircraft struggle to break the sound barrier, etc.

Personally, I find urban infantry combat (MOUT) to be my most favorite feature of ArmA (with mods of course). Without AI mods, MOUT is far from perfect.

Nothing like turning the corner and seeing an enemy soldier and dropping him before he drops you. All of this takes place within a few seconds.

Wounding: Get shot in the arms, aiming is much harder. Get shot in the legs, you'll have to crawl. No regenerating your health like a salamander from behind cover here.

Bullet physics and ammunition types: In ArmA, bullets have properly modelled ballistics, which means that while in other games, if you fire, the bullet will go in a straight line forever and ever. In ArmA, you fire a bullet and it will come back down to Earth eventually. Not only that, there are different types of ammunition, armor-piercing, tracer, etc. Most games, all bullets are the same.

The scale: Dozens of square kilometers to play in. Nothing like sniping somebody from two miles away.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Laqueesha

[C.tremblay 10]

Nothing like sniping somebody from two miles away.

it is a damn sexy feeling. I especially like shooting out engine blocks from 1000m + the only annoying part is that little problem that a guy with a AK47 can swing around at 1500m and 1 shot you with iron sights...

[iceman77 18]

ofp is still better than any cod or BF2/3. What makes the BIS sims better is the immersion and freedom of the large islands + the amount of actual content (weapons/units/vehicles, nevermind 3rd party addons/mods) the ability to sit in the editor and make any thinkable scenario come to life, and be able to share it.

[maturin 12]

it is a damn sexy feeling. I especially like shooting out engine blocks from 1000m + the only annoying part is that little problem that a guy with a AK47 can swing around at 1500m and 1 shot you with iron sights...

Damn flatearthers, at it again.

The AI has a hit rate of around 5% at 300m, with a normal rifle under optimal conditions. Default AI will usually refuse to shoot at targets farther than 500m away. An old man with Parkinsons is better with a sniper rifle than a full-skill AI.

And none of this is a matter of opinion. AI accuracy sucks. It's a fact.

Doesn't mean they can't still kill you, though.

[reconteam 19]

Damn flatearthers, at it again.

And none of this is a matter of opinion. AI accuracy sucks. It's a fact.

Doesn't mean they can't still kill you, though.

But at the ranges the AI will shoot you in, sometimes they seem to have insane reaction speeds. I've leaned around a corner for 1 second and been gunned down in three shots by some AI rifleman looking in that direction.

It just seems like there is no sort of suppression with the AI. You're either being shot at and hit or not shot at.

[Laqueesha 474]

Damn flatearthers, at it again. The AI has a hit rate of around 5% at 300m, with a normal rifle under optimal conditions. Default AI will usually refuse to shoot at targets farther than 500m away. An old man with Parkinsons is better with a sniper rifle than a full-skill AI. And none of this is a matter of opinion. AI accuracy sucks. It's a fact. Doesn't mean they can't still kill you, though.

That's what AI mods are for. Community addons are half of what makes ArmA great.

[maturin 12]

But at the ranges the AI will shoot you in, sometimes they seem to have insane reaction speeds. I've leaned around a corner for 1 second and been gunned down in three shots by some AI rifleman looking in that direction.

Nothing a human couldn't do, I'm sure. In CQB, AI reactions times are downright glacial. If they don't happen to have a bead on you when you walk around the corner (and don't even try to claim they see through walls), they might as well be holding paintball guns for all the threat they are.

It just seems like there is no sort of suppression with the AI. You're either being shot at and hit or not shot at.

The AI can be suppressed. If a round lands withing a meter or so, their accuracy and rate of fire will plummet. It's a big effect.

The problem is that bullets over their head have no effect, and that they aren't actually pinned down. They will still move quite happily.

That's what AI mods are for. Community addons are half of what makes ArmA great.

I have never heard of a mod that increases AI accuracy, except maybe for certain classes like snipers. And honestly, this game gets too hard if you put the accuracy on maximum, and firefights end too fast. Almost all AI mods decrease AI accuracy while increasing engagement ranges.

[metalcraze 290]

But at the ranges the AI will shoot you in, sometimes they seem to have insane reaction speeds.

No they don't. Just because you get ZOMG killed doesn't mean AI is some superman. If you kill 3 or 4 AIs in some firefight why shouldn't AI be able to kill 3-4 of guys like you?

Try playing with AIs in your squad and enjoy all the FFFUUUU- with how slow and imprecise they are even at 200m. I'm mediocre at shooting in ArmA, but I do 8 times more kills than any top skill AI in my squad

I've leaned around a corner for 1 second and been gunned down in three shots by some AI rifleman looking in that direction.

Yes they tend to watch corners just like humans. Three shots? What's the problem?

It just seems like there is no sort of suppression with the AI. You're either being shot at and hit or not shot at.

If any of it was true - an average firefight between 2 squads would've lasted for 5 seconds, not for 5 minutes.

And after those 5 minutes at least 2-3 guys from your squad will be out of ammo while you will still be close to full and with more kills. Those damn aimbots lol

Edited December 12, 2011 by metalcraze

[Laqueesha 474]

I have never heard of a mod that increases AI accuracy, except maybe for certain classes like snipers. And honestly, this game gets too hard if you put the accuracy on maximum, and firefights end too fast. Almost all AI mods decrease AI accuracy while increasing engagement ranges.

It may not increase accuracy, but it increases reaction time. On vanilla, the AI is slower than molasses, you could run across the street in plain view of an AI enemy and he'll take ten seconds before he realizes he saw you.

[maturin 12]

It may not increase accuracy, but it increases reaction time. On vanilla, the AI is slower than molasses, you could run across the street in plain view of an AI enemy and he'll take ten seconds before he realizes he saw you.

They're still like that for me.

I envy your CPU speed.

[rye1 21]

What is realistic, and where does it comes from?

Your perception of something.

If you do not think Arma is better than most other games or 'sims', and has the potential for even more, then explain that to us instead of posting such a stupid question with no forethought.

[DaveP 66]

To echo a commentary that I heard of 90's film, one of the key elements is that of journey -for a character to get from point a to point b, they must travel there, it's not enough to simply hand-wave it anymore

[Opticalsnare 12]

This game needs more detail on the smaller band of realism imo. The problem is everything is just focased on large stuff. Maps are large, with somewhat basic cover, trees, walls and bushes. The Ground is somewhat flat with rolling hills and valleys but closer to the ground side of things its still pretty basic when your in the open theres not many places to hide you cant go prone and hide behind a mound of earth or dive into a hole. Vehicles are generally basic too, Would be nice to see some interior stuff with FCS and screens etc, working cockpit instruments like MFD's.

The game focases on quantity rather than detailed systems. We get like 100s of differnt rifles which all do the same at end of the day when it would be nice to have 20 differnt weapons focased on more detailed design, 3D scopes for example for weapons, overheating for machine guns, proper reload animations for once. Vehicles are the same is well we get 100s of vehicles and they all drive poorly and are operated poorly, have basic weapon systems some dont have interiors at all. To me this game isnt that realistic im sorry but its just not lol its just got massive amounts of things to do, explore and use. Id rather have less vehicles, less weapons, less of everything really if they just focased their attention on giving the game more detail focased on giving the tanks and aircraft realistic handling and weapon systems etc giving the map less area space if need be to add more ground cover for my infantry and tanks to use. Still hoping A3 addresses these things and please dont think of this as a bash against the game i love it for what it is but it can be a whole lot better and i hate seeing resources wasted on useless things.

[Tonci87 163]

This game needs more detail on the smaller band of realism imo. The problem is everything is just focased on large stuff. Maps are large, with somewhat basic cover, trees, walls and bushes. The Ground is somewhat flat with rolling hills and valleys but closer to the ground side of things its still pretty basic when your in the open theres not many places to hide you cant go prone and hide behind a mound of earth or dive into a hole. Vehicles are generally basic too, Would be nice to see some interior stuff with FCS and screens etc, working cockpit instruments like MFD's.

The game focases on quantity rather than detailed systems. We get like 100s of differnt rifles which all do the same at end of the day when it would be nice to have 20 differnt weapons focased on more detailed design, 3D scopes for example for weapons, overheating for machine guns, proper reload animations for once. Vehicles are the same is well we get 100s of vehicles and they all drive poorly and are operated poorly, have basic weapon systems some dont have interiors at all. To me this game isnt that realistic im sorry but its just not lol its just got massive amounts of things to do, explore and use. Id rather have less vehicles, less weapons, less of everything really if they just focased their attention on giving the game more detail focased on giving the tanks and aircraft realistic handling and weapon systems etc giving the map less area space if need be to add more ground cover for my infantry and tanks to use. Still hoping A3 addresses these things and please dont think of this as a bash against the game i love it for what it is but it can be a whole lot better and i hate seeing resources wasted on useless things.

^This

[reconteam 19]

No they don't. Just because you get ZOMG killed doesn't mean AI is some superman. If you kill 3 or 4 AIs in some firefight why shouldn't AI be able to kill 3-4 of guys like you?

Try playing with AIs in your squad and enjoy all the FFFUUUU- with how slow and imprecise they are even at 200m. I'm mediocre at shooting in ArmA, but I do 8 times more kills than any top skill AI in my squad

Yes they tend to watch corners just like humans. Three shots? What's the problem?

If any of it was true - an average firefight between 2 squads would've lasted for 5 seconds, not for 5 minutes.

And after those 5 minutes at least 2-3 guys from your squad will be out of ammo while you will still be close to full and with more kills. Those damn aimbots lol

First of all, it didn't matter which direction I tried to approach this individual from. If I went around the other side of the building he would still know I was coming from that direction. You say they don't see through walls, and while this is certainly true the vast majority of the time, occasionally I run across some superman who disagree with human limitations and always seems to know what direction I'm taking.

Maybe if this guy was a Delta Force expert I could understand all of the five or six shots hitting me, and none hitting the wall I'm doing my best to use as cover. But he isn't. I'm talking about some Chedaki insurgent here, somebody who would probably been given an AK-74 and only some basic training.

I've seen the incredibly slow and stupid reactions of my squad. I've also seen them take out enemies at a distance quite easily once they finally detect the target and begin to start shooting.

My point is the AI is NOT at all consistent when it comes to matters like acquiring, engaging, and hitting the enemy, regardless of their skill level.

Yes, in real life this stuff varieties depending on somebody's training and experience, but you see many more eccentricities in ArmA2. The Ranger sniper who can't spot a target standing in an open field to save his life, or the militia member who can kill a prone target at 250 meters with less than 10 shots of his poor quality AK.

Also, even when the AI is missing you still don't see anything much like suppressive fire from them. There have been major steps since the days of OFP and ArmA1, but there is a long way to go yet.

[maturin 12]

It must be magic! Or maybe he heard your footsteps. Jesus.

The AI doesn't see through houses, unless you're using houses made by some modder who forgot to create viewblock geometry.

Or most likely yet, he had a squad mate who was watching you from another angle. If he glimpsed you stepped behind one wall or the other, his ally would be waiting for you to emerge. The AI shares information about your position in real time.

My point is the AI is NOT at all consistent when it comes to matters like acquiring, engaging, and hitting the enemy, regardless of their skill level.

:Oo:

Yeah... since all that stuff is based on probability, and thus randomness, I would say that inconsistency is a pretty good word for it. Players are pretty damn inconsistent too.

Please understand that the overall accuracy of the AI is characterized by a dismal hit rate no matter what your settings are. A collection of individual lucky shots does little to change this. They are poor marksman, but sometimes factors like darkness and fog will penalize your shooting more than theirs, giving them an edge.

Once alerted they have hawk eyes, but beforehand they are pretty oblivious.

I say all this from 500 hours of experience, and plenty of tests trying to prove the cheating people always whine about.

[ajax420 0]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opticalsnare View Post

This game needs more detail on the smaller band of realism imo. The problem is everything is just focased on large stuff. Maps are large, with somewhat basic cover, trees, walls and bushes. The Ground is somewhat flat with rolling hills and valleys but closer to the ground side of things its still pretty basic when your in the open theres not many places to hide you cant go prone and hide behind a mound of earth or dive into a hole. Vehicles are generally basic too, Would be nice to see some interior stuff with FCS and screens etc, working cockpit instruments like MFD's.

The game focases on quantity rather than detailed systems. We get like 100s of differnt rifles which all do the same at end of the day when it would be nice to have 20 differnt weapons focased on more detailed design, 3D scopes for example for weapons, overheating for machine guns, proper reload animations for once. Vehicles are the same is well we get 100s of vehicles and they all drive poorly and are operated poorly, have basic weapon systems some dont have interiors at all. To me this game isnt that realistic im sorry but its just not lol its just got massive amounts of things to do, explore and use. Id rather have less vehicles, less weapons, less of everything really if they just focased their attention on giving the game more detail focased on giving the tanks and aircraft realistic handling and weapon systems etc giving the map less area space if need be to add more ground cover for my infantry and tanks to use. Still hoping A3 addresses these things and please don't think of this as a bash against the game i love it for what it is but it can be a whole lot better and i hate seeing resources wasted on useless things.

@Opticalsnare. Do you realize that this is not a console shooter? As far as reload animations the game engine is not made to handle hundreds of anims for all the different weapons. Any other game only gives you a hand full of completely crap weapons with very cool reload animations that are NOT animations but an image overlay that only the player sees. Arma game engine renders the entire player model with head and all. A simple yet very realistic reload anim is not going to happen unless you want arma to look exactly like EVERY OTHER SHOOTER OUT THERE. That's why arma feels different from the player view... you are actually looking through the soldiers eyes. The weapons DO shoot and perform different from one another (rates of rire, size of rounds penetration of diff materials). If you want overheating barrels and jamms then run the ACE mod.

Vehicles are so freaking detailed it's not even funny. What kind of low end system are you running? The interiors as well as exteriors a amazing and every gauge in every vehicle works for me. Maybe not the LCD screens in some cockpits... but everything else works. The vehicles are clunky to drive but it is easily gotten used to. The planes and helicopter have a arcade feel to them... this is a game, not a flight sim.

Yea the worlds are big... So are the towns and cities and what other game lets you enter that many structures that are also destroyable? Why are you always fighting in the open fields? Urban combat in this game if off the hook, doorways, rooftops, balconies, windows, multiple floors, skylights, stairwells, towers... Not much cover huh???

Why don't all the coop players have a go with fighting other real live players and you might find this game even better than you thought. If all you do is fight AI then you a barely cracked open this game and you experience has been VASTLY LIMITED!

I know of no other game that has the incredible amount of detail in all thing large and small. The freaking insects have there own AI profile.

I really can't see what you mean by resource wasting. The capabilities for this game are way more massive than I think you understand. It is a resource intense game and it would be a shell of its self if things where any different. Keep in mind, this is a ten year old engine that's still using DX9. To those of us that knows what that means... It's pretty fu(king impressive! No, Awe Inspiring.

If you want the most out of the game get yourself a good system. Not an OK one or good enough for other games... That won't cut it. You need a really good system. CPU an HHD are the most important. Video cards are not that big a deal. This is a combat sim not your average shooter game.

I get soooo tired of ignorant people talking smack about this title without really learning about it. You can learn everything you want to know about any other FPS shooter in about one page. Arma has volumes and volumes of info on how the game works and can be played and or modded. I've been reading about Arma tech for ten years now and I'm still finding stuff out all the time.

Edited December 20, 2011 by AJAX420

[Opticalsnare 12]

Hold on wtf. First off ive done more modding to this game than you have and have been modding the series since OFP first began. I have not just focased my attention on one area but mostly all aspects of the game from effects, sounds, ai, weapons, flightmodel, scripting etc etc etc. So i do actually know an awful lot about the game and how it works than you do. The game can handle hundreds of animations which it does already, as if you actually looked at the animations which i have done myself and modded btw you will understand that there theres hundreds upon hundreds of differnt animations for the soldier class alone.

So not only have you insulted my knowledge of this game but gone onto to insulting my computer which you know nothing about i should add. I actually have two computers for ArmA2, which are both powerful enough to run this game at the maximum settings with full AA and full res and still recieve a framerate over 40 so you can cut that crap right there thanks.

And about other games what the fuck are you on about other games use image overlay for animations? The models themselfs get animated and when you press reload or whatever action you require the animation for that model runs. So i dont wtf you have been smoking or think you know, but your wrong and sound like a idiot.

And vehicle interiors, they all have interiors do they? The M1A2, M2A2, T72, T90, BMP2.... etc etc none have a modelled interior the BTR-90 Has a modelled interior as do some others.

And your view on urban combat is just plain ignorant. Its been known that this game and its predecessors have a problem or difficulties when it comes to urban combat which affects not only the player but also the AI in general.

Im gonna stop cause people like you just really piss me off. Ive spent so many hours of my freetime making this game better and you come along and insult me for giving my opinion on what i think is a better way forward making this game better for the community. My only advice i can give to you is that you should learn to respect other people alround here and their opinions and not go about calling them idiots knowing fuck all about the game, having shit computers, or as you put it ignorant. Fuck you very much.

Il proberly get a infraction for my outburst which i surely deserve, as ive disrespected the rules. But letting a nobody tell me all the false shit you just spewwed at me, i dont regret it one bit.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Opticalsnare