My 2 Cents

[john_mcclane 0]

I had been following the game for several months and was eagerly awaiting the release. I purchased it as soon as it was available on Steam. So what do I think? The game is exactly what I expected. I have been playing BIS games ever since the original OFP release. What I expected this game to be was basically a civilian helicopter oriented version of ARMA2, with some improvements in the flight model and atmosphere to make it seem more realistic, but I was not expecting a hard-core simulation by any means.

I think some people had unrealistic expectations as to how much of a simulation this game would be. To me, it feels like a realistic enough representation of helicopter flight in a game. If I was an actual pilot, I believe I'd be more interested in my day job than wasting time on a forum complaining that a computer game isn't just like flying the real thing. Professional flight simulators are very expensive. If you expected to hook up your pedals and flight stick to this $50 game and feel exactly like you were flying an actual helicopter, you were being rather silly.

This was marketed as a simulation game. Apparently some people took that a bit too seriously. Technically, all of their games since OFP have been considered simulations, but I wouldn't expect any of those games to be completely realistic simulations of actual combat. In the end, they are all games, and that is why most of us are here... to play games.

[buznee 0]

amen.. brother.

People need to understand that there is a balance between features, release date, and a finalized robust product.

Edited November 4, 2011 by buznee

[nightsta1ker 10]

I wouldn't use the term "improvement" when you are talking about the flight dynamics. There is more fidelity, but it's incorrect fidelity. Not exactly an improvement in my eyes.

As has been said before on other threads: A simplified model that acted correctly would be better than a complex model that does not act correctly.

That said, when I play the game on Trainee mode, I enjoy it much more because I don't have all these annoying incorrect behaviors that I have to overcome.

Those of you that are not real pilots are blissfully ignorant of this.

My expectations were not much higher than what was produced either. But I think it is worth fixing the flight dynamic issues so that it can live up to it's claim of being "authentic". I'm not expecting perfection, but come on, some of this stuff is rediculous (example: An extreme right roll with up collective in the Medium heli, Left roll with down collective. That does not happen at all in the real thing... so why is it like that?).

Other than that, it was exactly what I was expecting and you have no complaints from me. I would really appreciate it if those of you that don't know any better about helicopters stop telling those that DO know better that we had "unrealistic expectations".

The game may or may not be improved. If it doesn't we are going to have to live with that. If it DOES get improved, it will be due to our feedback. Why get in the way of that process?

[ProfTournesol 956]

The game may or may not be improved. If it doesn't we are going to have to live with that. If it DOES get improved, it will be due to our feedback. Why get in the way of that process?

Those developers are very dedicated to their products and to their customers (OFP is still patched 10 years after its release), so you can reasonably expect some improvements here, thanks to players feedbacks.

[maruk 80]

The game may or may not be improved. If it doesn't we are going to have to live with that. If it DOES get improved, it will be due to our feedback. Why get in the way of that process?

We hear your feedback. However, it simply does not make sense to repeat pretty much the same information all over again and again. Please let us do our homework, enjoy the game if you can (on trainee) and let's check later where it all goes. It may not be as trivial as it may look.

We just released first update which improves mostly the career mode based on the feedback, next is to establish a beta program that is going to allow us to be more agile with our work and after that another update is planned.

Plus after the latest disturbance in force, we have an influx of real world helicopters pilots to the forums which we need to face :rolleyes:

[nightsta1ker 10]

We hear your feedback. However, it simply does not make sense to repeat pretty much the same information all over again and again. Please let us do our homework, enjoy the game if you can (on trainee) and let's check later where it all goes. It may not be as trivial as it may look.

We just released first update which improves mostly the career mode based on the feedback, next is to establish a beta program that is going to allow us to be more agile with our work and after that another update is planned.

Plus after the latest disturbance in force, we have an influx of real world helicopters pilots to the forums which we need to face :rolleyes:

Fair, but only if both sides of the argument want to play. I am well aware that BIS is working on addressing these issues at some point and that was not the point I was trying to make. I am just as tired of seeing the snyde ramarks that myself and others need to have "realistic expectations" as they are of me and my remarks. :lecture:

Thanks

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

you can go about your business, move along. :p

vzcWPKAv2Ow

[john_mcclane 0]

We are talking about a game that is using a modified ARMA2 engine. This is not something that has been built from the ground up to be a flight simulator. I personally think it is unrealistic to expect too much in regards to authentic flight modelling. Did you really think they were going to convert a tactical combat game into a perfect flight sim? The trainee flight model is quite an improvement over the ARMA2 model, as far as giving non pilot players a decent representation of flying in a game, over the simplified ARMA2 model. Even that model was better than most, such as found in the Battlefield series. No matter what they do, I highly doubt they are going to be able to completely satisfy actual pilots. Even FSX couldn't do that.

Edited November 5, 2011 by John_McClane

[nightsta1ker 10]

We are talking about a game that is using a modified ARMA2 engine. This is not something that has been built from the ground up to be a flight simulator. I personally think it is unrealistic to expect too much in regards to authentic flight modelling. Did you really think they were going to convert a tactical combat game into a perfect flight sim? The trainee flight model is quite an improvement over the ARMA2 model, as far as giving non pilot players a decent representation of flying in a game, over the simplified ARMA2 model. Even that model was better than most, such as found in the Battlefield series. No matter what they do, I highly doubt they are going to be able to completely satisfy actual pilots. Even FSX couldn't do that.

Are we STILL going to argue about this? Put the stick down already! We both have valid points, but you said it yourself, even the simplified Arma flight dynamics are better than most. If they had stuck with that, but simply refined the control senstitivities it would have satisfied me. But this third party RTD RotorLib or whatever it is they are using to give it "authentic" flight characteristics is DETRACTING from the realism, not adding to it.

HOW MANY TIMES MUST I SAY THAT WE ARE NOT EXPECTING PERFECTION?

We just want to see some very basic things that are NEGATIVELY effecting the performance to be fixed or made to go away.

To come at this from another angle, so you understand me COMPLETELY: If these dynamics were a SLIGHT improvement, but not quite as good as they could be... that would be one thing. But some of these dynamics are a step BACKWARDS. This to me is unacceptable (personally speaking, you can take it or leave it as can everyone else). This is just my opinion, but if anyone here would know how these things are supposed to act, it's a real world pilot.

I want you to know that I COMPLETELY understand where YOU are coming from. Hopefully after this rant, you know where I am coming from too.

Have a good weekend!

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

We are talking about a game that is using a modified ARMA2 engine. This is not something that has been built from the ground up to be a flight simulator. I personally think it is unrealistic to expect too much in regards to authentic flight modelling. Did you really think they were going to convert a tactical combat game into a perfect flight sim? The trainee flight model is quite an improvement over the ARMA2 model, as far as giving non pilot players a decent representation of flying in a game, over the simplified ARMA2 model. Even that model was better than most, such as found in the Battlefield series. No matter what they do, I highly doubt they are going to be able to completely satisfy actual pilots. Even FSX couldn't do that.

let's put it this way, say bis made a racing game ok? and we all know that when we drive really fast and make a sharp turn we spin out in the direction of the turn right? what if the game made it that we spin out in the opposite direction of the turn? wouldn't you say that doesn't feel realistic and needs changing? it doesn't have to replicate how a real car would spin out but at least program it to spin out in the same direction, you following where i'm getting at here? this is to represent the right rolling tendency of the helicopter. or how about if you were going 150mph and stepped on the brakes hard. you'd screech to a stop right? but what if the game made the back end of the car lifted off the ground and it flipped over when you brake hard? wouldn't you say that needs changing? this is comparing it to ground effect.

[Panther353 10]

Scott, Maruk is right. No sense in rehashing things over and over.

John, BIS did the marketing, set the expectation and even published who the back end supplier of the flight dynamics are. They went to flight sim shows and joined flight sim sites to promote their product. So it is a bit disingenuous after the fact to say you shouldn't expect it be realistic. To their credit they have committed to a patch path and set the expectation that patches to the flight modeling have to be coordinated with RTD and might be difficult to resolve. Given their track record in supporting their products I say we consider the feedback "noted" and give them time to work on it.

That all said, this title does not suck. It does more to showcase what helicopter are really capable of and how they are used more so than X-Plane or MS Flight Sim has in the last five years.

[4 IN 1 0]

Why are we still beating the dead horse ? FPDR

Edited November 5, 2011 by 4 IN 1

[zoog 18]

Nightstalker, I think it will continue to be an uphill battle regarding other users who don't really get what you are saying. It's even starting to frustrate me, let alone you. My little advise: let's wait for the first FM patch and in the mean time just ignore the continuous misunderstandings from other members about the (also in my opinion) valid FM issues that have been addressed by you and other pilots. Simply out of self-preservation. It costs so much time and energy, and they will keep coming, I'm sure of that.

The issues are known, BIS is working on improving (part) of these issues and people will keep rambling about how your expectations are wrong or how this is not a simulator or whatever (because I believe they don't really understand the basic arguments you have proposed). All in all I think it's best for everyone to just wait for the first FM patch. And stop wasting our time with these silly arguments which are almost entirely based on misunderstandings about what is actually criticized about the FM.

Let's shove this discussion in the freezer and wait for the first FM patch. Otherwise we'll just go round and round and round.

Edited November 5, 2011 by zoog

[nightsta1ker 10]

I agree with you all 100%. This argument definitely needs to be put to bed. It's been up WAY too late!

---------- Post added at 05:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:38 PM ----------

On a side note, I just installed the 1.02 patch and several very noticable bugs and annoying things (not flight model related) have been fixed. Great work BIS. Keep it coming!

[john_mcclane 0]

Some good points have been made. Let's see what the patches do. Hopefully they can find a middle ground that will satisfy most everyone. BIS are very good at listening to their customers.