samb 15 Posted March 12, 2012 Well it was promised do get included with "future updates", so I'd imagine this is the one to fix the lack of it. SamB Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Derbysieger 11 Posted March 12, 2012 Don't imagine :p the changelog only states that RTD 4.0 is now integrated, no word about vortex ring state. I think they would have mentioned it if VRS was integrated... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samb 15 Posted March 12, 2012 Fair nough, so I'm still waiting for BiS to fix Physics issues. SamB Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fergus 1 Posted March 12, 2012 Hmmmm I'm quite red faced right now. I did a fresh install and now have a completely different light Heli on 1.04. It seems my origional update didn't go right. Torque is now present as is drift. Time to do some flying and see how I like it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hon0 10 Posted March 12, 2012 Flying on the 1,04 this evening. No need left pedal while hovering on expert. I renamed my Hsim folder to "aHsim" so it's not that. Is that normal? One other thing, with full down collective we can still fly a long time. I just can't hard brake as before. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fergus 1 Posted March 12, 2012 You do need left pedal Hon0. I think you have a similar issue to mine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samb 15 Posted March 13, 2012 Finally running landing can be done with light heli! Now how about raindrops on the windshield in next updates, BiS:)? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fergus 1 Posted March 13, 2012 Oh this light heli is good. It's really really good. Well done BIS. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sylle 1 Posted March 15, 2012 You do need left pedal Hon0. I think you have a similar issue to mine. Sorry to bring this up one more time. I do need left pedal input in a hover put it is so small that I'm wondering if I have a problem too. As it's difficult to compare result for different hardware I tried a hover without any rudder input to allow us to check if the FM behavior we see is the same on our different setups. Could you guys check the following results please: - Light heli - 1 person on board - collective pulled at 45%, hover at around 3-5ft above ground - maintain speed close to zero with cyclic only I noticed a heading change of 180 degrees over 25 sec in the situation above. How does this compare to the yaw rate you see on your install?? Cheers, Sylvain Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hon0 10 Posted March 15, 2012 Same for me Sylle. Almost not need of left pedal. Was cool on 1.3 with CU3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4 IN 1 0 Posted March 16, 2012 In real world you don't just need a little left padel, you need quite a bit, and once you are up in air and start taking up speed you might need some right padel to keep the airframe straight as the airframe itself will start to produce aerodynamic drag and making the tail rotor a little bit over effective at center. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hon0 10 Posted March 16, 2012 I just tried the medium helo wich I almost never fly and..? No need left pedal at all while hovering or gaining speed :confused: Or I have something wrong on my instal? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sylle 1 Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) In real world you don't just need a little left padel, you need quite a bit, ... Exactly what we heard from the real life heli pilots on the forum. It was also the case with community update 3 in the begin days of ToH. Problem is that it is hard to compare the amount of pedal deflection required in game as they can be dependent of hardware and sensitivities settings. We need the guys that say to be very happy with the flightmodel have a look at the yaw rate with no pedal input on their setup so that we can at least compare numbers. Just follow the procedure I described above and report the time it takes for the light heli to turn 180degrees without pedal input with collective at 45%. At least we will know if something is wrong with our setup or not. I just tried the medium helo wich I almost never fly and..? No need left pedal at all while hovering or gaining speed :confused: Or I have something wrong on my instal? I don't know if it is normal behavior or not but I do see exactly the same issues here hon0. It's worse than the light. It would be cool to have some feedback of the developers on this as I'm not really tempted to uninstall, re-download 13Gb of data to reinstall 20Gb on my HDD to notice nothing has changed... I wouldn't have any problem doing this on the other hand if I knew something was wrong with my install. I think I'm going to hold off the purchase of the Hinds DLC until we know what direction BIS is taking with the authenticity of the flight models in general. It's a pity as I was looking forward to it to be honest :( As I know they listed the following feature on the Hinds page: Pick-up-and-pilot controls - Designed to be played with mouse-and-keyboard, gamepads and joysticks I'm worried the kb & mouse players will get it their way again in the end. For the time being I simply feel my pedals are not being put at good use in ToH... The thing is there are a lot of things in 1.05 that I enjoy. I like how they have been working at implementing more realistic engine behavior and the relation between torque and N2 for example. As I said before, if they want to cater for the whole market they should offer an new option in the settings that offers realistic torque induced yaw. Dumbing down secondary aerodynamic effects cannot be the ultimate answer from BIS! Dear BIS developers, please share your point of view on this issue... Regards, Sylvain ----------------------------------------- EDIT --------------------------------------------- I just had a look in the general ToH forum This very topic is in the top 3 threads both when you rank the topics per views or when you rank them per replies. This reinforces my belief that the promise of an authentic flight model attracts (or at least has been attracting) a big part of the ToH customers... I personally think that dismissing this issue as irrelevant would be a big mistake... Edited March 16, 2012 by Sylle Adding view/replies result Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Serclaes 0 Posted March 16, 2012 Imo, we'd need input from real pilots in reproducible situations. That account for a lot of factors: Same model, weight of the pilot, fuelmass, density altitude for starters. A few years back I read an article about the EC 120. The test pilot was astonished that you didn't need the right pedal at all. The point is: when the heli is light and with the right weather there might not be a lot of torque to counter. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DnA 5015 Posted March 16, 2012 I personally think that dismissing this issue as irrelevant would be a big mistake... None of the issues posted here are being dismissed by us. The struggle is a delicate balance between a massively wide range of opinions. Everybody is approaching it from a slightly different perspective and it's not trivial to deem one correct and another flawed. There are: gamers with game-helicopter experience, flight simmers with simulation-helicopter experience, helicopter pilots with real-helicopter experience ... and very many more. Even real helicopter pilots vary in their opinions a lot, which we see when we compare the opinions of pilots we speak to in person, those voicing their feedback here, and people on other fora. There's also pilots who are so in tune with their particular aircraft, they don't necessarily best judge other types (not saying this applies to all pilots of course). All of this makes the issue not as easy as some may think it is. We're keeping the tweaking going Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sylle 1 Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) None of the issues posted here are being dismissed by us. The struggle is a delicate balance between a massively wide range of opinions. Everybody is approaching it from a slightly different perspective and it's not trivial to deem one correct and another flawed. Having been involved in the development of some aircraft addons for FS I can relate to what you say Dna. In order to meet the expectation of its customers I think that a company needs to stick to its values. With Take On Helicopters BIS promised us (amongst other things): - Playability for kb & mouse players all the way up to complete hardware helicopter controls Offering this choice of controllers needs to be continued and it's good to see you do exactly this for the Hinds DLC. - Authentic flight model Meaning that certain customers will expect all kind of odd behavior like the torque induced yaw, settling with power, etc that make flying a helicopter challenging (even without anything to shoot at). I understand that marrying these two concepts together can be problematic but... why would you guys want to accomplish this with only one flight model and limited options?? Not knowing the possibilities of your game engine, I don't know if it is possible but I guess the ultimate answer will be to have more realism options regarding the helicopter behavior. In Flight simulator for example you have sliders to change the effects of P-factor, torque and gyro on your aircraft. Why not look into integrating stuff like this in ToH? All of this makes the issue not as easy as some may think it is. We're keeping the tweaking going Good to know you guys are not simply settling with what we have right now. As I said above, there are a lot of things I like in the new version 1.05 too. Looking forward to further developments! Bedankt voor uw antwoord. Regards, Sylvain Edited March 16, 2012 by Sylle Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Serclaes 0 Posted March 16, 2012 I realise that making it exactly like a real helicopter is not really possible. What I fear and it seems a lot of people share my fears, is that trade offs are made to enable the keyboard/mouse players to play on expert mode. I hope the mindset here is "let's get it as right as possible for the expert mode and make it easier on veteran etc" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fergus 1 Posted March 16, 2012 Guys I was the first to report this. After a clean install the problem went away. I just tested 180degree turn speed with no pedal input from a ground effect hover: Light about 12-13 seconds Medium about 3-4 seconds Hope that helps. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sylle 1 Posted March 16, 2012 Thanks Fergus... That's twice more yaw rate than I experience on the light helicopter. Seems something went wrong with the updating in that case... I will re-download and install from scratch as soon as I find the time. I'll keep you posted. Regards, Sylvain Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fergus 1 Posted March 16, 2012 You're welcome Sylvain, When doing so delete any HSim folder you may have left over from previous community updates. I think that may have been my problem to begin with. ---------- Post added at 12:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 PM ---------- I spoke too soon. I hadn't noticed you said you were on 1.05. I did the test above on 1.04. I just updated to 1.05 and now have zero yaw on the medium in the hover and about 25seconds for a 180 degree turn in the hover on the light heli :mad: I wanted to try hinds so updated. Now I will have to skip hinds for a while and roll back to 1.04 :( Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hon0 10 Posted March 16, 2012 Phew ! I almost decided to reinstal everything after your post fergus ;) Thanks for the edit Hehe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fergus 1 Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Devs, Any plans to fix this issue? Just hover the medium on 1.04 then on 1.05 and you should immediately see that the torque induced yaw is now broken. Ive purchased hinds but can't install it and still play the civilian helis in TOH because of this issue. Please let us know when you plan to fix it or else contact me about a refund for hinds! Id much prefer the realistic flight model of 1.04 over a shooter. Thanks. Edited March 18, 2012 by Fergus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[evo] dan 79 Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Yes I feel that in the latest patch, the heli's feel a little too easy to fly on Expert mode. I also wish BIS would make the flying back to a more realistic setting (I have been flying light and med) I would like to see the FM stay on the realistic side, even if its only on expert (because expert is supposed to be uber realistic), and leave it easy on beginner mode for those who wish to play with K&M. I also like not having all the buttons of DCS or LOMAC as they did take a LONG time to learn. BIS should pick a side they want, otherwise they are going to end up like the last game that took the middle ground (which was Dragon Rising) with very few liking the game at all. Edited March 19, 2012 by [EVO] Dan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feris 10 Posted March 21, 2012 I am a practising pilot on Robinson R44 with 700 hours and last flight - today :) ... but i am really disappointed how the TOH flight model is working. ..for now it is just wrong: - way too jerky and too sensitive on joystick inputs while flying straight with a speed above 40km/h. In real life helicopter is way more stable and easy to fly.. - too unstable and sensitive while hovering compared to RL - wrong inertia in high speed turns - now you can go on 200kmh and turn nose backwards just with pedal input - impossible in RL For now i think that flight model of helicopters on ARMA2 is way more closer to RL than TOH. Especially in ACE mod where you can control even autorotations... PS and i would like you to think about excluding wind effects in TOH . Wind is the thing you have to feel with your spinal bone and butt (:) and then make a correction inputs via joystick... it is the thing you can not replicate in game - so why to complicate things ? Lets just have no wind conditions - and all flight physics will become way more easy for everyone.. Sorry for criticism, but i care because i am a big fan of your products from ARMA family !! Great job !! I hope TOH will be at same level soon enough .. Paul Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
autorotation 1 Posted March 21, 2012 While it is very sensitive, keep in mind that it's possible to alter the sensitivity of the joystick as you see fit. Also, one should keep in mind that one millimetre of movement on the joystick doesn't equal one millimetre of movement on the cyclic in a real life helicopter. Perhaps one millimetre would be more like one inch in the real thing. It's also important to avoid comparing the light model directly to the robinson r44 :) However, the efficiency of the pedals at speed should probably be looked at... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
