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nightsta1ker

Flight dynamics (important issues)

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I'm not an actual pilot, but I do play a bit of DCS Black Shark, which is supposed to be as close as you can get to an actual helicopter. Of course, it's also a foreign helicopter with contra-rotating blades, so it's tough to compare some things from the sim to TOH. I think the biggest thing I've noticed is the ground effect is much more subtle in black shark, I have to really dump the collective to land in TOH. That combined with the weird rolling with collective for the medium and the odd lack of inertia I feel with the heavy are the biggest differences, I think.

I pretty much stick to the light chopper in ToH for now, it feels the most correctly implemented and handles nicely, and I've gotten used to sticking the landings through that ground effect with it.

I've also noticed the vortex ring stall is much easier to correct out of in TOH, this might be realistic, I just know if you do in in the Kamov, you often end up crashing anyway, or striking the rotor blades together (And crashing anyway).

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I'm not an actual pilot, but I do play a bit of DCS Black Shark, which is supposed to be as close as you can get to an actual helicopter. Of course, it's also a foreign helicopter with contra-rotating blades, so it's tough to compare some things from the sim to TOH. I think the biggest thing I've noticed is the ground effect is much more subtle in black shark, I have to really dump the collective to land in TOH. That combined with the weird rolling with collective for the medium and the odd lack of inertia I feel with the heavy are the biggest differences, I think.

I pretty much stick to the light chopper in ToH for now, it feels the most correctly implemented and handles nicely, and I've gotten used to sticking the landings through that ground effect with it.

I've also noticed the vortex ring stall is much easier to correct out of in TOH, this might be realistic, I just know if you do in in the Kamov, you often end up crashing anyway, or striking the rotor blades together (And crashing anyway).

TOH does not simulate Vortex Ring State (which is probably why it is so easy to recover from it :D).

---------- Post added at 12:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 AM ----------

What's your opinion of X-Plane, FSX, and/or Black Shark?

Not a hijack, just wondering what those others feel like compared to TOH...

X-plane has the most realistic helicopter physics. They are not perfect either by any means, but they are much more representative of the real thing as all of the basics are at least modeled properly. X-plane also has a very instant and fluid feeling to the controls which gives it a very lifelike feel. And X-plane is very developer friendly so almost anyone with some time and half a brain can learn to build their own aircraft and scenery. Anyone with a full brain can actually do some very amazing things, for example, Fred Conex AKA Alfredo Fernandez, developer of the Dreamfoil series (R22, B206) has done an amazing job on his aircraft. The R22 which I had the honor of alpha and beta testing for him with systems and flight dynamics, is as close to the real thing as I imagine one can get with a game. However, we spent months working on it. He would code for weeks and then send me a copy and I would test, write down everything that was incorrect, and he would code some more, until it was damn near perfect. Unfortunately, the exterior world in X-plane is atrocious. This is the killing point on that game.

FSX is very flawed in regards to helicopter dynamics. Though with some external plug ins like what the Dodo sim uses or Helicopter Total Realism (Fred Naar's program) you can get some very realistic results. The Dodo sim is probably the closest thing to the real thing overall regarding systems and accuracy of flying by the numbers. So by default, helicopters in FSX suck too, unless alot of work goes into fooling the game into doing something it does not want to. All of this aside, FSX has the most realistic environment overall, and with some payware addons can be very immersive. I do most of my flying here, even though I often get bored of flying overly simple, low fidelity flight dynamics and having nothing to do but go from point a to point b.

I hated DCS blackshark. There is really only one aircraft you get to fly: The Blackshark. If it had a few more helicopters, particularly some american ones, I might have been more interested in it. Certainly if that talent and attention to detail went into a civil game I would be peeing my pants! The very complex systems of the helicopter were immaculately done and the virtual cockpit and flight dynamics were flawless, but the lifeless environment detracted so much from the game. Also, I am not attracted to helicopters that are designed specifially for hunting. They have a tendency to be geared towards stability systems and the like that make the flying job easier so the pilot can hunt targets. I just like the flying part, because I find challenge in that in itself. I don't want a computer flying for me.

I actually LIKE TOH except for the flight dynamics. I think everything else was done really well. Considering it is not a simulator, I think BIS did a very good job, and if they had not failed to accomplish their goals of creating a realistic flight model, it would have been a spectacular success in my eyes. I was not looking for a replacement for FSX or X-plane. They have their place in the realm of simulators. The only reason I am up in arms about TOH's flight dynamics is because they claim realism and fidelity and authenticity but they have produced NONE of those things. Strip the flight dynamics down to a simple "point it where it's going" version and remove the claims of realism OR... fix it. That's all I can ask. And IMHO, they owe it to their customers. I almost didn't buy TOH but they offered me a realistic and authentic flight experience, so I figured they had fixed the issues that we had spotted during the community preview. But they didn't.

Why the hell am I still talking??? Damnit... you got me talking again!

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TOH does not simulate Vortex Ring State (which is probably why it is so easy to recover from it ).

Ah, I see. I did notice that the sink rate at speed was really (really really really unrealistically) low, but as my speed decreased I could drop the helicopter like a rock as long as I was one or two hundred meters up. I just assumed this was intentional and supposed to be vortex ring state.

Like I said though, I only had any experience with it through DCS Black Shark, but as long as I've got a real live pilot to answer questions: How much easier is it to recover from vortex ring state in a helicopter with only one set of blades than it would be in the Black Shark?

Haven't tried X-Plane yet, I really wasn't impressed with the physics in FSX when IL-2 Sturmovik was so much better, and I'm on board about how bad the choppers are in it... But back on X-Plane, I've looked at the graphics, and they are really really bad, it's always been a turn-off for me since I can't seem to find a copy on shelves for less than 30 bucks.

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after reading the question above i dusted off xplane9 last night, took the stock r22 for a ride with my new pedals.

you know i found it more controllable and easier to fly than TKOH. not sure why though. i just seem to have more control and the heli doesn't make such huge changes whereas in TKOH i often end up oscillating madly. i landed on my first attempt without crashing, soemthing i can hardly do in TKOH without the allow rough landings setting on.

and when trying to hover i found it took into consideration my joystick movements more - but dont forget i am a noob at all this. never liked xplane much before as the environment don't feel immersive or look as nice as BIS products and without pedals flying a heli in it was tricky.

but now i am enjoying being able to do things in it (like speed crazily down the downward slope of a huge mountain with collective way down and then flare up to stop crashing)

Edited by twisted

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Same here. I can hover in XP and FSX, but can't in ToH yet. It feels like there is lag between stick movement and heli response which is causing pilot induced oscillation...

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Twisted, the stock helicopters with X-plane are not great compared to some. Also, I have a few tips for you to make things a little more realistic. X-plane is very open ended and configurable. There are multitudes of things you can change or tweak so you get just what you want. Alot of people hate this because it is so complicated, but I like it because I KNOW what I want and I can in essense MAKE the game give it to me.

As far as controllability in X-plane vs. TOH, I think you are seeing the lack of control lag. When you move the cyclic, the helicopter responds, instantly. In TOH, there is a lag, which is why you wind up oscillating. I am a flight instructor, which means I have taken the single hardest set of tests the FAA can muster for a pilot to take, and I can barely fly the TOH models in Expert mode without oscillating. It's very difficult and not very real. The TOH model wants to flip over. It's like one of those inflatable punching bags that's been placed upside down. It REALLY wants to be upright.

---------- Post added at 02:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 AM ----------

Ah, I see. I did notice that the sink rate at speed was really (really really really unrealistically) low, but as my speed decreased I could drop the helicopter like a rock as long as I was one or two hundred meters up. I just assumed this was intentional and supposed to be vortex ring state.

Like I said though, I only had any experience with it through DCS Black Shark, but as long as I've got a real live pilot to answer questions: How much easier is it to recover from vortex ring state in a helicopter with only one set of blades than it would be in the Black Shark?

Haven't tried X-Plane yet, I really wasn't impressed with the physics in FSX when IL-2 Sturmovik was so much better, and I'm on board about how bad the choppers are in it... But back on X-Plane, I've looked at the graphics, and they are really really bad, it's always been a turn-off for me since I can't seem to find a copy on shelves for less than 30 bucks.

Vortex Ring State works like this... You need to have a descent rate of greater than 300 FPM, you need to be below Effective Translational Lift (12-20 knots) and you need to have 20% or more of your engine power applied to driving the rotor system (VRS will NOT happen in an autorotation). It starts with a vibration and some uncrontrolled pitching movement, your descent rate increases, and when you pull collective to stop the descent, it gets worse instead of better. You are sinking into your own rotor wash and all that disturbed air is mucking up the tidy flow of air around your rotors and keeping them from producing lift. As you increase pitch, the problem intensifies and spreads along the blade. You are falling into a black hole.

Recovery is relatively simple, but can cost you alot of altitude when you may not have it (it usually happens in the final stages of an approach to the ground). Lower the nose and go for airspeed, do NOT pull any more collective, in fact, you may need to lower it a bit to help build the flow of smooth clean air over the rotors. When the airspeed starts to climb again, you are in clean air and can pull pitch to recover the descent rate.

If you catch it early, recovery is as simple as pitching the nose forward a bit and ducking out of it. In fully developed VRS you can lose hundreds of feet in just a few seconds. I don't know anything about dual counter-rotating (center mast) helicopters but I would assume the problem would be worse, you have one rotor system right on top of the other. I would imagine one system would get caught in the others vortex sooner and would cause yaw issues as well as an increased sink rate. But what do I know?

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More than most here I recon :) So a pretty close counterpart wrt responses, controls, and "counter intuitive" recoveries (until you know why of course) as a plain old stall in fixed wings?

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More than most here I recon :) So a pretty close counterpart wrt responses, controls, and "counter intuitive" recoveries (until you know why of course) as a plain old stall in fixed wings?

In this case, yes, although you cannot expect it to act anything like a fixed wing during the whole process. I have been in VRS so bad (intentionally for training purposes) that in order to get it out I had to point the nose almost straight down to get airspeed. We started at 2500 AGL and recoverd at around 1000. The whole thing only lasted a few seconds, but we were pitching and rolling and shuddering. The controls did not want to respond. I had the stick almost full forward to get it to pitch down. Did I mention it was at night in crummy weather?

Boundary pushing stuff for an inexperienced pilot.

Coincidentally, the guy who was in the other seat is also a member of this community.

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i think it would be a good idea for people to take an introductory flight on helicopters, sure it might be a bit expensive but it's a great experience and you might learn a thing or two. all this explaining to you guys is one thing but experiencing it is a whole other matter.

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So my question is this, did BIS dumb down the the RTD flight dynamics library or does the flight model from them suck to begin with?

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after reading the question above i dusted off xplane9 last night, took the stock r22 for a ride with my new pedals.

you know i found it more controllable and easier to fly than TKOH. not sure why though. i just seem to have more control and the heli doesn't make such huge changes whereas in TKOH i often end up oscillating madly. i landed on my first attempt without crashing, soemthing i can hardly do in TKOH without the allow rough landings setting on.

Can you compare controller sensitivity settings in both your games?

I was realy surprised how sensitive controlls in real helicopter are. I have experience as a glider pilot in real life, tried few small fixed wing aircraft (Cessna, Metasokol) and I had chance to try R44 and MD520N during developement of the game. I never experienced such controlls sensitivity as in real helicopter in any games before. I flew FSX, X-Plane, DCS, Il-2, ROF, Condor. Helicopter controls sensitivity is also a lot different from fixed wing aircraft too. I was confused during my lessons that helicopter stick in R44 even does not have any feedback on "center" position, so hovering was like trying to stand on a ball and with only one leg.

Because of this helicopter natural unstability and controls sensitivity real pilots tend to hold the stick with just fingers and move it just a centimeter most of the time. On the other hand all gamers and virtual pilots are used to hold the stick by whole hand, have stiff center and move a lot.

For any virtual pilot that has no experience with controlling real helicopter I suggest to remove all deadzones and set nonlinear "smooth" game curve on cyclic (aprox 1/4 of the slider in game).

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http://www.thrustmaster.com/product.aspx?ProductID=223

http://ts.thrustmaster.com/fr/index.php?pg=view_files&gid=1&fid=3&pid=311&cid=5

Two days ago I discovered this soft and now I can set my Sensitiviy on the fly with my T16000M.

MapKey(&T16000, H1L, SEQ(CHAIN(EXEC("curvevalueX = curvevalueX + 1;"), EXEC("SetSCurve(&T16000, JOYX, 0, 0, 0, curvevalueX, 0);")), CHAIN(EXEC("curvevalueY = curvevalueY + 1;"), EXEC("SetSCurve(&T16000, JOYY, 0, 0, 0, curvevalueY, 0);"))));

MapKey(&T16000, H1R, SEQ(CHAIN(EXEC("curvevalueX = curvevalueX - 1;"), EXEC("SetSCurve(&T16000, JOYX, 0, 0, 0, curvevalueX, 0);")), CHAIN(EXEC("curvevalueY = curvevalueY - 1;"), EXEC("SetSCurve(&T16000, JOYY, 0, 0, 0, curvevalueY, 0);"))));

Cool Soft

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Another point about TKOH controls setting. TKOH has no stability agumentation help exept "autohover". Virtual pilots know this help from X-Plane (there is a slider next in sensitivity settings) or DCS (simulation of real helicopter systems in Ka-50).

Also the sensitivity curve slider in TKOH is designed different way than in other games you might know (FSX, X-Plane, ROF, DCS - each game has different style).

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Because of this helicopter natural unstability and controls sensitivity real pilots tend to hold the stick with just fingers and move it just a centimeter most of the time. On the other hand all gamers and virtual pilots are used to hold the stick by whole hand, have stiff center and move a lot.

For any virtual pilot that has no experience with controlling real helicopter I suggest to remove all deadzones and set nonlinear "smooth" game curve on cyclic (aprox 1/4 of the slider in game).

Not sure what your joystick is or your settings are, but I tend to fly most things with my hand resting on the joystick base and move the stick mere millimetres with my fingers.

A lot of PC sims have different control response due to

a) Users with no force feed back who can only move the stick 'an amount of travel' against an inert spring, rather than apply an amount of pressure against the aircrafts resistance.

b) User with force feed back who turn it off as it's usually so incorrect as to not be worth having it on.

Therefore there is no "feel".

If you think that is bad, try flying an RC heli. You have a 1 inch high stick under your right thumb for cyclic. No feel, no force feed back and as the heli only weighs 2-6lb and designed for insane aerobatics it is immensely twitchy.

Out of interest I have tried "expo" or "smoothing" curves and hate them, so I (almost) never use them in games or in RC.

Paul

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@Armored_Sheep: First, thanks for jumping in and explaining some things.

With youre experience with some of the flight sims, you would not admit that TOH FM lacks? Even when a RL helicopter IP(nightsta1ker) is telling (more then once) about the issues? We have several RL helicopter pilots here and they complaining almost about the same things. Yes, the DCS Ka-50 have its dampeners (autopilots), though it feels so more believable(you can`t really deny if you had some time with it). So, is there a problem with implementation of FDM or it`s just that more then one heli is to hard to set up properly(and therefore needs more time) or is it an engine limititation, or what else? I see, we get FM corrections with the second Patch. We will see.

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Sorry is it just me or are you guys unable to understand what the developer is saying?

a) ToH is based on the 3rd party FM library

b) BI can not or not alone change the FM basics/system

c) Only certain parts can be easily tweaked in the XML while other aspects cannot

d) To change or even tweak the FM basics/system is not easy

e) It requires cooperation with the 3rd party

f) BI may not be the only client of the 3rd party

g) Some of your expectations of the FM seem too high

Now this is what I read from his statement, so it must not necessarily be (fully) true,

yet you guys seem to turn a blind eye what he is telling you it seems to me.

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The problem is not the sensitivity. ToH is very sensitive and this is a good thing. The problem is that there is a lag between control movement and aircraft movement which is unrealistic. I can see my stick move in game and there is a half second pause before the helicopter responds. This is not a settings issue a I have tried the full range of sliders. I have all of my null zones turned completely off. The wife is out of town for a few days so I will have time to play. I will make a video with commentary to help illustrate the core issues. Also Panther and I plan on compiling a list of issues that need to be addressed with references to the Rotorcraft Flying Handbook and other sources.

If BIS is serious about fixing this in the second patch I will do whatever I can to help.

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In addition to that you could help BI a lot if you were to provide specific, short, quality

feedback in the ToH CIT - instead of these long winded posts mixing tons of different topics.

md500enthusiast seems to be the only one doing so far.

If you want to see improvements, go forward doing so in meaningful ways.

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I see in this thread a lot off mess mixing various feedbacks and confusion. I want to help those players who never experienced real flight and have only experiences in simulations available on PC.

I agree that flight model isn´t perfect and that it can be improved. We respect the feedback and it will be hopefully possible to improve that part of the game with colegues from RTDynamics who provide the flight model code and XML files for Take On Helicopters.

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Sorry is it just me or are you guys unable to understand what the developer is saying?

a) ToH is based on the 3rd party FM library

b) BI can not or not alone change the FM basics/system

c) Only certain parts can be easily tweaked in the XML while other aspects cannot

d) To change or even tweak the FM basics/system is not easy

e) It requires cooperation with the 3rd party

f) BI may not be the only client of the 3rd party

g) Some of your expectations of the FM seem too high

Now this is what I read from his statement, so it must not necessarily be (fully) true,

yet you guys seem to turn a blind eye what he is telling you it seems to me.

Why do I need to keep addressing comments like this? How is my expectation too high when BIS offered authentic flight dynamics? They are not authentic, I assure you.

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The forums are mainly for discussion (imo). It is educating and entertaining, but your feedback is best served being put in the form of issues in the Community Issue Tracker, As PvPscene has linked above.

I wouldn't say MD500enthusiast is the only one doing so ;)

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-Ziggy-'] I appreciate the time you take to post constructive criticisms in an effort to make this game better' date=' and I hope BIS can get the game to a state where it is more acceptable to pilots like yourself.[/quote']

let me know if there is anything else you need ;)

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If my assistance is not appreciated I guess I'm done here. Good luck with your game.

I personally think your observations are valid. It is interesting to hear this stuff from a real pilot. Sure, ToH is a game and will never fully mirror the true dynamics of flight, but if you don't throw your opinions in then BI can't improve the game.

There are obviously technical reasons why the flight dynamics can't be changed drastically, but that doesn't mean to say you shouldn't be allowed your opinion. Also there's always going to be a trade off betweem simulation and realism. BI have already said that flight dynamics will be adressed in a future patch and we'll get to try them using the patch mod system we use in Arma.

I'm used to the back and forth wrangle between modelling realism and providing a 'gaming experience' as it happens all the time in the Arma forums. Don't let the more vociferous arguments and comments get you down ;-)

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It's a game. That's all.

And it's a good game (imo). Ok it needs to be updated with better flight dynamics but let BIS work on it. It's not a simulator. Some "simulators" i've flown are not so good (too easy).

I enjoy it: attempting to get a stable hover remember me my first flight on R22!!! I asked my instructor a better heli. He told me: it's not the heli....

Sorry for the OT

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