So how do you think Afghanistan and Iraq is developing?

[PELHAM 10]

I agree! I think we only invaded Afghanistan to steal their oil!

[Rovka 14]

No oil in their Afghan soil afaik.. But "they" do construct a pipeline between Caspian Sea and Pakistani coast to Karachi. A matter of big-money trade stuff.

Yet Iran is also creating pipeline to Pakistan, bypassing A'stan thus being labeled as threat by US Government. Either Iran at the helm, or USA is a matter of preference by their respective governments to go kick one another's archnemesis' butt for..

[PELHAM 10]

There must be oil in Afghanistan? I'm reliably informed that every time the US invades somewhere it's to steal their oil?

[Mr. Charles 22]

No, but minerals:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/afghanistans-resources-could-make-it-the-richest-mining-region-on-earth-2000507.html

[PELHAM 10]

Ahhh so we invaded Afghanistan on a crusade to steal their minerals?

Afghanistan has "vast amounts of lithium, a key component in batteries of Western lifestyle staples such as laptops and BlackBerrys."

It all makes more sense to me now. I can see now why there could be a conspiracy behind 9/11. If we ran out of batteries for laptops and blackberries, that really would be the end of western civilisation.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

No, but minerals:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/afghanistans-resources-could-make-it-the-richest-mining-region-on-earth-2000507.html

Sorry to interrupt, but those ressources have already all been bought/reserved by the chinese who sent their consulate representatives over to Afghanistan at a very early stage of the conflict.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/06/14/china-us-afghanistan-mineral-mining/

[eble 3]

Ahhh so we invaded Afghanistan on a crusade to steal their minerals?

Afghanistan has "vast amounts of lithium, a key component in batteries of Western lifestyle staples such as laptops and BlackBerrys."

It all makes more sense to me now. I can see now why there could be a conspiracy behind 9/11. If we ran out of batteries for laptops and blackberries, that really would be the end of western civilisation.

Afghanistan invasion was a direct result of the taliban not giving up Osama and pals. no other reason and plus the US Gov had to be seen to do something, all in all Afghanistan probably looked like a very easy target.

Iraq, well good old Saddam, unfortunately for him he was about to switch oil payments to the Euro and thus threaten massively the US dominated world $$ currency.

Add that to the Bush's senior failure to follow the French in 1991 (Yep that's right the French wanted to finish it then with troops on the ground) Bush Junior saw an opportunty and took the fools with him, the French couldn't be arsed and the the US called them chicken!.

Iran, well the US are in no state to even attempt anything at the moment, they owe just about the next 5 years GDP in debts, if they are lucky the Chinese might buy some more bonds (though asian countries are selling US junk bonds off sharpish).

I suspect everything will be quiet until the Iranians announce they have nukes.

[PELHAM 10]

Afghanistan invasion was a direct result of the taliban not giving up Osama and pals. no other reason and plus the US Gov had to be seen to do something, all in all Afghanistan probably looked like a very easy target.

It was a joke son!

I was trying to head off some of the silly ideas we keep getting that shut down threads.

[mrcash2009 0]

I was trying to head off some of the silly ideas we keep getting that shut down threads.

Your joke helped (by focusing on it) I assume?

I suspect everything will be quiet until the Iranians announce they have nukes.

Me thinks they will be demon number 4, John Bolton has been dribbling about this for years, but thats politics and not about what the thread was referring too, so say no more.

I just cant see how anyone living amongst that mess has ever seen any of it liberate them, maybe for the short term, but as its long term it just seems to be a continuation on repeat with no real results, well, results for anyone else with invested interest other than the people who have to live in those areas.

Lets face it the big things were to get rid of bad guys, and then liberate a population and assist them to build again, take that as the model, I see bad guys getting taken out, populations getting bombed to stone age (facilities) like a tank hitting a fly to get said bad man, and then policing the unrest it all unsettled in a long term contracted cash cow, meanwhile there just happens to be people their.

Edited October 23, 2011 by mrcash2009

[aussieterry84 10]

Wasn't Iraq a pretty fancy place in the 70's? I remember reading something by an Aussie journo about how it use to be pretty good almost like Egypt in that sort of way.

[Macadam Cow 1]

In the early 70's Saddam Hussein and the baas party started to nationalize the oil ressources allowing them to modernised the country.

Back then he was our "friend", our governments and our medias showed him as a great leader bringing civilisation to the poor iraqi people.

Both right and left wing western parties were supporting him.

Left wing were happy because they saw him as a progressist and anti-colonialist, right wing was happy because he was buying a lot of military and industrial stuff to the west and was fighting against the islamic revolution in Iran.

That's why we couldn't care less about his dictatorship, his massacre and the way he used chemical weapons against the Kurds and the Iranians.

Then it suddenly became unacceptable...

I know this is only a movie and it's not strictly related to iraq but I really think Syriana is worth watching

-4IdWUzrcJM

Edited October 24, 2011 by Macadam Cow

[PELHAM 10]

Wasn't Iraq a pretty fancy place in the 70's? I remember reading something by an Aussie journo about how it use to be pretty good almost like Egypt in that sort of way.

Oh yeah it was great - particularly for the Hussein Family and those in favour. Ever read about the antics of Saddam's playboy son - Uday? The killings, the rapes, the torture, the daily disgusting antics of most of the Hussein family? The inside story by his body double Latif Yahia is chilling and extreme. Once the countries oil industry was nationalised it meant they could take what they liked.

qhlQOg9abRk

Edited October 24, 2011 by PELHAM

[Blackhawk 0]

I'd like to think that Iraq is getting pretty stable, considering that there hasn't been much bad news from there.

Unfortunately for Afghanistan, I think it's doomed. ISAF can continue to suppress the insurgency for as much as they like, but as soon as they withdraw, the Afghan security forces will crumble to the point that it is just completely corrupt, and ineffective. Nothing will have changed since 2001, except that NATO and her allies hopefully will have learnt a big lesson.

[PELHAM 10]

NATO and her allies hopefully will have learnt a big lesson.

Don't trust Pakistanis :D I can't see anything changing with the Pakistan ISI meddling and allowing the Taliban safe refuge in their country. If the Taliban had nowhere to go, and noone giving them money and weapons, it would be over by now.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Don't trust Pakistanis :D I can't see anything changing with the Pakistan ISI meddling and allowing the Taliban safe refuge in their country. If the Taliban had nowhere to go, and noone giving them money and weapons, it would be over by now.

Obviously Pakistan is another double dealing ally of the US, such as Saoudi Arabia. They always considered Afghanistan as a part of their country, and the so called Talibans were a weapon to avoid any stability under Western control.

[PELHAM 10]

Obviously Pakistan is another double dealing ally of the US, such as Saoudi Arabia. They always considered Afghanistan as a part of their country, and the so called Talibans were a weapon to avoid any stability under Western control.

No the Taliban were the front for the corrupt politicians and members of the ISI who control the production of drugs in Afghanistan. Pakistan is the conduit for Afghanistan's national product - drugs. Drugs go out, the mules come back with guns.

I'm not sure just how dealing drugs dovetails with being a holy warrior but I guess where there is money to be made, the rules of Islam can be bent a little.

[Baff1 0]

When they were in power, the Taliban clamped down hard on the drug trade.

Getting hold of skag was a bugger in their heyday.

[road runner 4344]

I have been in Iraq since 2004 and whilst there has been massive gains in Security there's just as much corruption present today as there was back in the bad old days, and many Iraqis will tell you life was better under Saddam, at least they had electricity back then, 8 years later Basrah is still without power for up to 2 hours a day.

The Iraqi Police( Mahdi Army) are as corrupt as they come, with Generals at the airport dressing his own men up as taxi drivers and charging $15 a head to travel the 6km's to the main gate, as they've stopped Western Security teams collecting their clients from the airport.

It takes upwards of 6 hours to clear immigration at times, and subtle hints from arsehole Police Lieutenants and Captains that they "Need new laptops" as means to pass through various checkpoints in and around the area, as well as turning up at Oilfields demanding free fuel, or else they will "intimidate" the locals working for the Western Oil companies ;)

Yes it's free from a brutal dictator, but Maliki is weak and pathetic , and LOST the election to Ayad Alawi, but failed to get the majority to replace Maliki..resulting in a Government that can't agree on the colour of shite!!

The Iraqi Army is better trained, but will be relinquishing control of the major cities back to the Police, and once the Americans are no longer there to "reach out and touch" the bad guys, the Militia will increase in strength and will start crawling back out of their well hidden rocks, and begin their ability to roam freely and do what they want similar to the way they operated prior to "Charge of the Knights".

Is it a better place, yes, in many ways, it's better for the ones with money, it sucks to live in Sadr city where they still have open sewers, a high proportion of unemployment and little opportunities to work, as cheap labour from overseas is slowly filtering into the country.

Things will take a turn for the worse once the US Mil leave and then we will see how strong Malaki and his Governemnt are without having the backing of the US Mil and all it's firepower behind the Iraqi Army..

[mrcash2009 0]

Thanks for the post Road Runner, nice to hear it from someone in the place itself.

Same shit different year then eh? :)

[PELHAM 10]

Well Mesopotamia is reputed to be the cradle of civilisation so it follows that they invented corruption 5 mins after that. No wonder they are better at it than everyone else!

You will never end bribery and corruption in Iraq, it's been embedded in the culture for 1000s of years.

[mrcash2009 0]

You will never end bribery and corruption in Iraq, it's been embedded in the culture for 1000s of years.

And invading it and bombing it to shit and crapping on infrastructure helped then I imagine?

We have learned that we went on on false intel, we will leave it and it will be worse than when entered, I dont think that place was invaded to end bribery or corruption, pot calling the kettle black if the west got on that high ground. And a massive slab of irony to boot based on the fact its referring to Iraq and how we got their :)

BTW people doing their jobs on the ground isn't what im referring too if it looks that way.

[PELHAM 10]

And invading it and bombing it to shit and crapping on infrastructure helped then I imagine?

We have learned that we went on on false intel, we will leave it and it will be worse than when entered, I dont think that place was invaded to end bribery or corruption, pot calling the kettle black if the west got on that high ground. And a massive slab of irony to boot based on the fact its referring to Iraq and how we got their :)

BTW people doing their jobs on the ground isn't what im referring too if it looks that way.

I was simply and obviously commenting on bribery and corruption in Iraq in every day life (Road Runner's post). No need to embellish what I said or read into it things that aren't there. You will find Iraqis paying baksheesh on a daily basis - that does not happen in the US or western European countries, so factually incorrect also.

Edited November 2, 2011 by PELHAM

[mrcash2009 0]

Just highlighting a flip side to a coin mainly, not putting words in your mouth or anything. I dont disagree with your point, but I was just balancing that statement out with the overall situation at both sides.

You will find Iraqis paying baksheesh on a daily basis - that does not happen in western countries, so factually incorrect also.

Your right, factually incorrect that is :) Western just do it in different ways and in suits.

Either way its worse than before so no actual benefit to anyone based on the "mission goal(s)".

[PELHAM 10]

Your right, factually incorrect that is :) Western just do it in different ways and in suits.

Anyone living in a western country had to pay bribes to corrupt officials, civil servants or in a place of business or witness such a thing occurring frequently or even at all?

In 20 years I have only personally encountered this sort of thing once. I was offered an all expenses paid business trip and although they didn't specifically say it, I think my audit report was to be more favourable than it otherwise might have been.

I accepted the trip, looked around their factory and turned in an honest report - it was bad. I then received free theatre and sports tickets in the mail and another offer to revisit the factory to see 'improvements'. I told them I could not be bought and returned all the above to sender.

[mrcash2009 0]

Personally and street level wasn't actually what I was referring too, I meant in terms of politics higher levels and the war element. If you meant day to day street level, then yes we are different, thats a given.

As this was liberating them I meant that it will be like that before and after with a hint of even more due to infrastructure being shit on as a "bonus", and this process to make it worse later was from a justification that was about as dodgy as that way of doing things street level (getting people to agree and sign things off etc).